Mamphela Ramphele - Politician and academic HARDtalk

This is BBC News. Here are the This is BBC News. Here are the

headlines: Three men from headlines: Three men from

headlines: Three men from Birmingham have faced life in

Birmingham have faced life in Birmingham have faced life in

prison after being found guilty of prison after being found guilty of

planning suicide attacks that planning suicide attacks that

planning suicide attacks that police believe could have been

police believe could have been police believe could have been

bigger than the 7th July atrocities. bigger than the 7th July atrocities.

bigger than the 7th July atrocities. Irfan Naseer, Irfan Khalid and

Irfan Naseer, Irfan Khalid and Irfan Naseer, Irfan Khalid and

Irfan Naseer, Irfan Khalid and Ashik Ali had planned to set off

Ashik Ali had planned to set off Ashik Ali had planned to set off

rucksack bombs and places across rucksack bombs and places across

rucksack bombs and places across the country. They financed the plot

the country. They financed the plot the country. They financed the plot

by pretending to collect money for charity.

charity. charity.

The chief police officer in the The chief police officer in the

The chief police officer in the Oscar Pistorius case has been

Oscar Pistorius case has been Oscar Pistorius case has been

replaced after it emerged he was replaced after it emerged he was

replaced after it emerged he was facing seven counts of attempted

facing seven counts of attempted facing seven counts of attempted

murder himself. Hilton Botha and murder himself. Hilton Botha and

murder himself. Hilton Botha and other officers are accused of

other officers are accused of other officers are accused of

firing at the minibus they were firing at the minibus they were

firing at the minibus they were trying to stop two years ago.

trying to stop two years ago. trying to stop two years ago.

The Little Democrats have launched The Little Democrats have launched

The Little Democrats have launched The Little Democrats have launched

a review of the way the party a review of the way the party

handles harassment allegations, handles harassment allegations,

following allegations made to following allegations made to

following allegations made to Channel 4 News of sexual

Channel 4 News of sexual Channel 4 News of sexual

impropriety over a number of years impropriety over a number of years

impropriety over a number of years by Lord Rennard. He strongly denies

the accusations. the accusations.

the accusations. Police have made a number of

Police have made a number of arrests after Tottenham supporters

arrests after Tottenham supporters arrests after Tottenham supporters

arrests after Tottenham supporters were attacked in the city of Lyon.

were attacked in the city of Lyon. were attacked in the city of Lyon.

were attacked in the city of Lyon. It is thought to be an anti-Semitic

attack. attack.

attack. David Cameron is facing criticism

David Cameron is facing criticism David Cameron is facing criticism

after suggesting the government may after suggesting the government may

after suggesting the government may after suggesting the government may

spend some of the UK's �10 billion spend some of the UK's �10 billion

aid budget on peacekeeping and aid budget on peacekeeping and

other defence-related operations. A other defence-related operations. A

other defence-related operations. A agencies argue the money should

agencies argue the money should agencies argue the money should

only be used to reduce poverty. only be used to reduce poverty.

only be used to reduce poverty. The political supremacy of the ANC

The political supremacy of the ANC The political supremacy of the ANC

in post-apartheid South Africa has in post-apartheid South Africa has

never been seriously threatened. never been seriously threatened.

never been seriously threatened. never been seriously threatened.

But could that be about to change? But could that be about to change?

Like yesterday's Mamphela Ramphele, Like yesterday's Mamphela Ramphele,

anti-apartheid activist, prominent anti-apartheid activist, prominent

anti-apartheid activist, prominent public figure and former partner of

public figure and former partner of public figure and former partner of

the late Kerobakan, one of the the late Kerobakan, one of the

the late Kerobakan, one of the heroes of the liberation struggle.

heroes of the liberation struggle. heroes of the liberation struggle.

heroes of the liberation struggle. -- the late Steve Biko. She has

-- the late Steve Biko. She has -- the late Steve Biko. She has

launched an outspoken attack on the launched an outspoken attack on the

launched an outspoken attack on the failings of the ANC government. She

failings of the ANC government. She failings of the ANC government. She

failings of the ANC government. She says she is on a journey to realise

says she is on a journey to realise says she is on a journey to realise

South Africa's dreams. How far will Mamphela Ramphele, in Cape Town,

Mamphela Ramphele, in Cape Town, Mamphela Ramphele, in Cape Town,

South Africa, welcome to HARDtalk. South Africa, welcome to HARDtalk.

South Africa, welcome to HARDtalk. South Africa, welcome to HARDtalk.

Let me begin by quoting words of Let me begin by quoting words of

Let me begin by quoting words of Let me begin by quoting words of

your own from just four months ago, your own from just four months ago,

your own from just four months ago, your own from just four months ago,

when you said it would have to take when you said it would have to take

when you said it would have to take something very dramatic to make me

something very dramatic to make me something very dramatic to make me

want to get involved in active want to get involved in active

want to get involved in active want to get involved in active

politics. What was it? It is a politics. What was it? It is a

politics. What was it? It is a realisation of the problems my

realisation of the problems my realisation of the problems my

beloved country is facing, as well beloved country is facing, as well

beloved country is facing, as well as the wonderful opportunities that

as the wonderful opportunities that as the wonderful opportunities that

as the wonderful opportunities that still remain in my society for it

still remain in my society for it still remain in my society for it

still remain in my society for it to realise it's great for us.

to realise it's great for us. to realise it's great for us.

you talk about the enormous risks you talk about the enormous risks

you talk about the enormous risks for your country, are you

for your country, are you for your country, are you

suggesting that those risks have suggesting that those risks have

suggesting that those risks have risen exponentially in the past

risen exponentially in the past risen exponentially in the past

risen exponentially in the past year or two? They have indeed. But

year or two? They have indeed. But year or two? They have indeed. But

so also has the quality of so also has the quality of

so also has the quality of government accelerated. One was sad

government accelerated. One was sad government accelerated. One was sad

to see 2012 have spent on to see 2012 have spent on

to see 2012 have spent on celebrating a glorious past by the

celebrating a glorious past by the celebrating a glorious past by the

governing party instead of focusing governing party instead of focusing

governing party instead of focusing governing party instead of focusing

on how do we get ourselves out of on how do we get ourselves out of

on how do we get ourselves out of the many, many challengers that

the many, many challengers that affect our society, education,

affect our society, education, affect our society, education,

which by the government's own which by the government's own

which by the government's own admission, 80% of public schools

admission, 80% of public schools are dysfunctional. The healthcare

are dysfunctional. The healthcare are dysfunctional. The healthcare

system is collapsing left, right system is collapsing left, right

system is collapsing left, right and centre. There is enormous crime

and centre. There is enormous crime and centre. There is enormous crime

and centre. There is enormous crime and insecurity in our midst. We are

and insecurity in our midst. We are and insecurity in our midst. We are

and insecurity in our midst. We are facing a major challenge of 71% of

facing a major challenge of 71% of facing a major challenge of 71% of

the 15-34 homes that are not the 15-34 homes that are not

the 15-34 homes that are not participating in the economy. It is

participating in the economy. It is participating in the economy. It is

participating in the economy. It is a risk however you look at it. At

a risk however you look at it. At a risk however you look at it. At

a risk however you look at it. At the same time, when you look at the

the same time, when you look at the the same time, when you look at the

areas where South Africa is really, areas where South Africa is really,

areas where South Africa is really, areas where South Africa is really,

truly great, we are able to manage truly great, we are able to manage

truly great, we are able to manage one of the most respected financial

one of the most respected financial one of the most respected financial

services. We have got enormous services. We have got enormous

services. We have got enormous services. We have got enormous

wealth in our poster in terms of wealth in our poster in terms of

wealth in our poster in terms of minerals. We have got a wonderful

minerals. We have got a wonderful minerals. We have got a wonderful

country. People just love visiting country. People just love visiting

country. People just love visiting it. We also have wonderful people.

it. We also have wonderful people. it. We also have wonderful people.

Countries and societies have built Countries and societies have built

Countries and societies have built Countries and societies have built

by their people. You raise some of by their people. You raise some of

by their people. You raise some of the challenges in different areas

the challenges in different areas the challenges in different areas

of policy-making. I want to go of policy-making. I want to go

of policy-making. I want to go of policy-making. I want to go

through goes with you. Before we do through goes with you. Before we do

through goes with you. Before we do through goes with you. Before we do

that, I want to ask you a general that, I want to ask you a general

that, I want to ask you a general question. Many people watching this

question. Many people watching this question. Many people watching this

programme it in and beyond South programme it in and beyond South

programme it in and beyond South Africa will always associate you

Africa will always associate you Africa will always associate you

Africa will always associate you with Steve Biko. You were a partner

with Steve Biko. You were a partner with Steve Biko. You were a partner

with him in the black consciousness with him in the black consciousness

movement. You were romantically movement. You were romantically

movement. You were romantically movement. You were romantically

involved with him. You raise a sum involved with him. You raise a sum

involved with him. You raise a sum involved with him. You raise a sum

that was his son. He said that she that was his son. He said that she

that was his son. He said that she that was his son. He said that she

shared his vision of what it meant shared his vision of what it meant

shared his vision of what it meant for liberation. It was about black

for liberation. It was about black for liberation. It was about black

self-reliance and a black South self-reliance and a black South

Africans taking responsibility for Africans taking responsibility for

Africans taking responsibility for themselves and avoiding any sense

themselves and avoiding any sense themselves and avoiding any sense

themselves and avoiding any sense of victim would. Is it those ideas

of victim would. Is it those ideas of victim would. Is it those ideas

that drive you today? Indeed. One that drive you today? Indeed. One

that drive you today? Indeed. One of the saddest things in South

of the saddest things in South of the saddest things in South

of the saddest things in South Africa is to see the majority of

Africa is to see the majority of Africa is to see the majority of

South Africans, black and white, South Africans, black and white,

South Africans, black and white, South Africans, black and white,

still trapped in the mind sets of still trapped in the mind sets of

still trapped in the mind sets of inferiority on the part of many

inferiority on the part of many inferiority on the part of many

black people and superiority on the black people and superiority on the

black people and superiority on the part of a significant number of

part of a significant number of part of a significant number of

white people. We have not taken white people. We have not taken

white people. We have not taken advantage of the freedom we now

advantage of the freedom we now advantage of the freedom we now

advantage of the freedom we now enjoy now to sit down and have

enjoy now to sit down and have enjoy now to sit down and have

serious conversations about what it serious conversations about what it

serious conversations about what it means to be citizens of a

means to be citizens of a constitutional democracy. Having

constitutional democracy. Having constitutional democracy. Having

constitutional democracy. Having grown up, many of us, to fight and

grown up, many of us, to fight and grown up, many of us, to fight and

later triumph over an authoritarian later triumph over an authoritarian

later triumph over an authoritarian system where we are not subjects.

system where we are not subjects. system where we are not subjects.

We were not citizens, we were We were not citizens, we were

We were not citizens, we were subject. The idea that she could

subject. The idea that she could subject. The idea that she could

simply make a step from Europe simply make a step from Europe

simply make a step from Europe victim-a subject mentality to an

victim-a subject mentality to an victim-a subject mentality to an

active citizen status is really an active citizen status is really an

underestimation of the challenges underestimation of the challenges

underestimation of the challenges that we face. We were very

that we face. We were very fortunate in the Black

fortunate in the Black consciousness Movement to go

consciousness Movement to go through the psychological

through the psychological liberation which many South

liberation which many South liberation which many South

Africans have still not undergone. Africans have still not undergone.

Africans have still not undergone. It is interesting to recall that

It is interesting to recall that It is interesting to recall that

It is interesting to recall that Steve Biko was not a member of the

Steve Biko was not a member of the Steve Biko was not a member of the

Steve Biko was not a member of the ANC. You were not a member of the

ANC. You were not a member of the ANC. You were not a member of the

ANC. You were not a member of the ANC. You have never been a member,

ANC. You have never been a member, ANC. You have never been a member,

is that correct? That is correct. is that correct? That is correct.

is that correct? That is correct. is that correct? That is correct.

When we were activists, it was a When we were activists, it was a

When we were activists, it was a banned organisation. We decided to

banned organisation. We decided to banned organisation. We decided to

establish something that would be establish something that would be

establish something that would be able to function within the

able to function within the able to function within the

constraints of that particular time. constraints of that particular time.

constraints of that particular time. Some people inside the ANC have

Some people inside the ANC have Some people inside the ANC have

reacted pretty badly to your reacted pretty badly to your

reacted pretty badly to your decision to enter active politics

decision to enter active politics decision to enter active politics

and launch an attack on the and launch an attack on the

and launch an attack on the Government's's record of the ANC.

Government's's record of the ANC. Government's's record of the ANC.

Government's's record of the ANC. They point to the fact that you

They point to the fact that you They point to the fact that you

have always had a problem against have always had a problem against

have always had a problem against them. They 0.2 things Equitation of

them. They 0.2 things Equitation of them. They 0.2 things Equitation of

them. They 0.2 things Equitation of them just a month ago. You set in

them just a month ago. You set in them just a month ago. You set in

1994 we should have thanked the 1994 we should have thanked the

1994 we should have thanked the warriors of the struggle. We should

warriors of the struggle. We should warriors of the struggle. We should

warriors of the struggle. We should have decorated with the gold and it

have decorated with the gold and it have decorated with the gold and it

have decorated with the gold and it let them go so we could build a

let them go so we could build a proper democratic dispensation.

proper democratic dispensation. proper democratic dispensation.

Where does that leave Nelson Where does that leave Nelson

Mandela? He understood precisely Mandela? He understood precisely

Mandela? He understood precisely that. He surrounded himself with

that. He surrounded himself with that. He surrounded himself with

young people. A lot of people young people. A lot of people

young people. A lot of people young people. A lot of people

inside the country, but not in the inside the country, but not in the

inside the country, but not in the organisation. The report into that

organisation. The report into that government for their technical

government for their technical government for their technical

skills. He understood that. But you skills. He understood that. But you

skills. He understood that. But you are attacking, are you not, the

are attacking, are you not, the are attacking, are you not, the

legacy of Nelson Mandela and the legacy of Nelson Mandela and the

legacy of Nelson Mandela and the other freedom fighters. You are

other freedom fighters. You are other freedom fighters. You are

suggesting that the ANC has failed suggesting that the ANC has failed

suggesting that the ANC has failed and betrayed the people of your

and betrayed the people of your and betrayed the people of your

country. If you listen to my country. If you listen to my

country. If you listen to my country. If you listen to my

criticism of the and c, I always criticism of the and c, I always

criticism of the and c, I always acknowledge that which is laudable

acknowledge that which is laudable acknowledge that which is laudable

acknowledge that which is laudable that they have done. Even in my

that they have done. Even in my announcement speech, I acknowledge

announcement speech, I acknowledge Nelson Mandela's inaugural speech.

Nelson Mandela's inaugural speech. Nelson Mandela's inaugural speech.

Nelson Mandela's inaugural speech. I am not in the business of

I am not in the business of I am not in the business of

I am not in the business of attacking. I am in the business of

attacking. I am in the business of constructive criticism and proposal

constructive criticism and proposal constructive criticism and proposal

of alternatives. That is precisely of alternatives. That is precisely

of alternatives. That is precisely of alternatives. That is precisely

what I am doing. When you say what I am doing. When you say

what I am doing. When you say you're not in the business of

you're not in the business of you're not in the business of

you're not in the business of attacking, I just wonder why in the

attacking, I just wonder why in the attacking, I just wonder why in the

course of launching a political course of launching a political

course of launching a political movement you chose to talk about

movement you chose to talk about movement you chose to talk about

movement you chose to talk about the ANC leadership as one of --

the ANC leadership as one of -- authoritarian, nepotism and corrupt.

authoritarian, nepotism and corrupt. authoritarian, nepotism and corrupt.

The ANC itself acknowledges that The ANC itself acknowledges that

their organisation and the their organisation and the

Government is riddled with Government is riddled with

Government is riddled with corruption. That is a statement of

corruption. That is a statement of corruption. That is a statement of

corruption. That is a statement of fact. There is no way I can talk

fact. There is no way I can talk about launching a political

about launching a political about launching a political

platform without referring to the platform without referring to the

monumental failure in government. monumental failure in government.

monumental failure in government. That failure is acknowledged by the

That failure is acknowledged by the That failure is acknowledged by the

ANC. Where have we seen a ANC. Where have we seen a

ANC. Where have we seen a Government who spends as much money

Government who spends as much money Government who spends as much money

on education as our government does on education as our government does

on education as our government does and it fails to even deliver

and it fails to even deliver and it fails to even deliver

textbooks? That is not something textbooks? That is not something

textbooks? That is not something textbooks? That is not something

that one can find excuses for. It that one can find excuses for. It

that one can find excuses for. It that one can find excuses for. It

is monumental failure. It has to be is monumental failure. It has to be

is monumental failure. It has to be is monumental failure. It has to be

acknowledged so we can look at why. acknowledged so we can look at why.

South Africa has fundamental South Africa has fundamental

South Africa has fundamental problems, you have pointed it out.

problems, you have pointed it out. problems, you have pointed it out.

problems, you have pointed it out. It is one of the most unequal

It is one of the most unequal It is one of the most unequal

societies in the world according to societies in the world according to

societies in the world according to all of the global statistical

all of the global statistical all of the global statistical

analysis. I wonder how you think analysis. I wonder how you think

analysis. I wonder how you think analysis. I wonder how you think

you're going to reach out to the you're going to reach out to the

you're going to reach out to the poor majority in South Africa.

poor majority in South Africa. poor majority in South Africa.

believe that the very failures of believe that the very failures of

believe that the very failures of our opportunities to get people to

our opportunities to get people to our opportunities to get people to

talk about how they experience an talk about how they experience an

unbelievable phenomenon of parents unbelievable phenomenon of parents

unbelievable phenomenon of parents not being sure that their children

not being sure that their children not being sure that their children

not being sure that their children have going to be better off than

have going to be better off than have going to be better off than

they are. We grew up under they are. We grew up under

they are. We grew up under apartheid when things were really

apartheid when things were really apartheid when things were really

bad. I remember going to school bad. I remember going to school

bad. I remember going to school with children from farm workers.

with children from farm workers. with children from farm workers.

Their parents brought them to Their parents brought them to

Their parents brought them to school, knowing that if those

school, knowing that if those school, knowing that if those

children get through, they will be children get through, they will be

children get through, they will be children get through, they will be

in a better position. We, with more in a better position. We, with more

in a better position. We, with more money, because of poorer governance

money, because of poorer governance money, because of poorer governance

money, because of poorer governance have failed to make that dream that

have failed to make that dream that have failed to make that dream that

every parent has, that my children every parent has, that my children

every parent has, that my children every parent has, that my children

have going to be much better off. have going to be much better off.

have going to be much better off. understand your diagnosis of the

understand your diagnosis of the understand your diagnosis of the

understand your diagnosis of the problem. But my question is how you,

problem. But my question is how you, problem. But my question is how you,

Mamphela Ramphele, will reach out Mamphela Ramphele, will reach out

Mamphela Ramphele, will reach out to the majority of poor South

to the majority of poor South to the majority of poor South

Africans. Convince them that you Africans. Convince them that you

Africans. Convince them that you have their best interests at heart.

have their best interests at heart. have their best interests at heart.

have their best interests at heart. If one looks set to record since

If one looks set to record since If one looks set to record since

1994, you have had a fabulous 1994, you have had a fabulous

1994, you have had a fabulous career. You have led a top

career. You have led a top career. You have led a top

university. You have worked for the university. You have worked for the

World Bank. You had showed one of World Bank. You had showed one of

the biggest gold mining the biggest gold mining

the biggest gold mining corporations in South Africa. But

corporations in South Africa. But corporations in South Africa. But

corporations in South Africa. But it looks as though you have had the

it looks as though you have had the it looks as though you have had the

sort of career art that sort of career art that

sort of career art that characterises the black elite. How

characterises the black elite. How characterises the black elite. How

can you convince poor South can you convince poor South

can you convince poor South Africans that you really get it

Africans that you really get it Africans that you really get it

Africans that you really get it from their point of you? If you

from their point of you? If you from their point of you? If you

from their point of you? If you come with me to the Eastern Cape,

come with me to the Eastern Cape, come with me to the Eastern Cape,

come with me to the Eastern Cape, where I have been working, it is

where I have been working, it is where I have been working, it is

interesting that that part of my interesting that that part of my

interesting that that part of my career is discounted. I have been

career is discounted. I have been career is discounted. I have been

working in the Eastern Cape. With working in the Eastern Cape. With

working in the Eastern Cape. With very poor people. To try and

very poor people. To try and revitalise primary healthcare. I

revitalise primary healthcare. I revitalise primary healthcare. I

have an understanding as a member have an understanding as a member

have an understanding as a member have an understanding as a member

of the circle with the Eastern Cape of the circle with the Eastern Cape

of the circle with the Eastern Cape government. Another example of how

government. Another example of how I work with government.

I work with government. Unfortunately, our government in

Unfortunately, our government in Unfortunately, our government in

the Eastern Cape collapsed. There the Eastern Cape collapsed. There

the Eastern Cape collapsed. There the Eastern Cape collapsed. There

is no way that the efforts of is no way that the efforts of

is no way that the efforts of society organisations that I found

society organisations that I found society organisations that I found

society organisations that I found it can succeed. If you go to some

it can succeed. If you go to some provinces, I support the community

provinces, I support the community provinces, I support the community

in the village where my mother's in the village where my mother's

in the village where my mother's in the village where my mother's

home state is. I support the local home state is. I support the local

home state is. I support the local school which is producing fabulous

school which is producing fabulous school which is producing fabulous

results in the midst of poverty. results in the midst of poverty.

results in the midst of poverty. The Community has had to collect

The Community has had to collect The Community has had to collect

The Community has had to collect money to pay for a science teacher.

money to pay for a science teacher. money to pay for a science teacher.

money to pay for a science teacher. I am contributing to that as a

I am contributing to that as a I am contributing to that as a

I am contributing to that as a resident. Let me be blunt about it.

resident. Let me be blunt about it. resident. Let me be blunt about it.

You talk about to grassroots record. You talk about to grassroots record.

You talk about to grassroots record. You talk about to grassroots record.

Do you regret for the past few Do you regret for the past few

Do you regret for the past few years sitting as the figurehead

years sitting as the figurehead years sitting as the figurehead

years sitting as the figurehead chairperson as one of the -- South

chairperson as one of the -- South Africa's biggest gold mining

Africa's biggest gold mining Africa's biggest gold mining

corporations. Why must I regret corporations. Why must I regret

corporations. Why must I regret corporations. Why must I regret

being part of the economy that I am being part of the economy that I am

being part of the economy that I am part of as a citizen. People

part of as a citizen. People confuse participation in the

confuse participation in the confuse participation in the

economy, at whatever level. I am economy, at whatever level. I am

economy, at whatever level. I am making a contribution. I will tell

making a contribution. I will tell making a contribution. I will tell

you where some South Africans might you where some South Africans might

you where some South Africans might you where some South Africans might

think it is something that does not think it is something that does not

think it is something that does not square easily with your stated

square easily with your stated square easily with your stated

commitment to the poor majority. commitment to the poor majority.

commitment to the poor majority. The Trade Union Confederation, when

The Trade Union Confederation, when The Trade Union Confederation, when

you announced that you were you announced that you were

entering politics, said, how entering politics, said, how

entering politics, said, how seriously can we take someone who

seriously can we take someone who seriously can we take someone who

seriously can we take someone who has stepped down from a big and

has stepped down from a big and has stepped down from a big and

ruthless mining company and now ruthless mining company and now

talks of transforming an talks of transforming an

So I don't think we should demonise So I don't think we should demonise

So I don't think we should demonise people for participating in the

people for participating in the people for participating in the

economy of their own country. economy of their own country.

economy of their own country. economy of their own country.

issue is, what do you do when issue is, what do you do when

issue is, what do you do when you're there? If people were to

you're there? If people were to you're there? If people were to

you're there? If people were to look at what contribution I made to

look at what contribution I made to look at what contribution I made to

Gold Fields by sitting on that Gold Fields by sitting on that

Gold Fields by sitting on that board, that's a different matter,

board, that's a different matter, board, that's a different matter,

board, that's a different matter, in the same way that when I became

in the same way that when I became the Vice-Chancellor, people are

the Vice-Chancellor, people are the Vice-Chancellor, people are

saying, why are you dignyifying a saying, why are you dignyifying a

saying, why are you dignyifying a white male university. It's not a

white male university. It's not a white male university. It's not a

white male university, it's a South white male university, it's a South

white male university, it's a South African instuetion and we need to

African instuetion and we need to African instuetion and we need to

be able to transform this be able to transform this

be able to transform this institution and more -- South

institution and more -- South institution and more -- South

on mining. The National Union of Mineworkers points out

Mineworkers points out that

on mining. The National Union of Mineworkers points out that while

Mineworkers points out that while you

you were

Mineworkers points out that while you were sitting

you were sitting as

Mineworkers points out that while you were sitting as chair

you were sitting as chair of

Mineworkers points out that while you were sitting as chair of the

you were sitting as chair of the board,

board, the

you were sitting as chair of the board, the company

board, the company had

you were sitting as chair of the board, the company had a

board, the company had a poor

board, the company had a poor health

health and

board, the company had a poor health and safety

health and safety record.

board, the company had a poor health and safety record. You,

health and safety record. You, according

according to

health and safety record. You, according to the

according to the union,

health and safety record. You, according to the union, legitimated

according to the union, legitimated a

a white

according to the union, legitimated a white minority

a white minority power

according to the union, legitimated a white minority power in

a white minority power in the

a white minority power in the industry

industry and

a white minority power in the industry and they

industry and they say

a white minority power in the industry and they say that

industry and they say that your

industry and they say that your programme

programme of

industry and they say that your programme of action

programme of action in

industry and they say that your programme of action in the

programme of action in the mining

programme of action in the mining industry

industry suggests

programme of action in the mining industry suggests you

industry suggests you want

programme of action in the mining industry suggests you want to

industry suggests you want to shed

industry suggests you want to shed tens,

tens, if

industry suggests you want to shed tens, if not

tens, if not hundreds

industry suggests you want to shed tens, if not hundreds of

tens, if not hundreds of thousands

tens, if not hundreds of thousands of

of jobs,

tens, if not hundreds of thousands of jobs, you

of jobs, you refer

tens, if not hundreds of thousands of jobs, you refer to

of jobs, you refer to it

tens, if not hundreds of thousands of jobs, you refer to it as

of jobs, you refer to it as a

tens, if not hundreds of thousands of jobs, you refer to it as a 19th

of jobs, you refer to it as a 19th century

century industry

of jobs, you refer to it as a 19th century industry that

century industry that needs

of jobs, you refer to it as a 19th century industry that needs to

century industry that needs to be

century industry that needs to be reorganised

reorganised on

century industry that needs to be reorganised on 21st

reorganised on 21st century

century industry that needs to be reorganised on 21st century lines

reorganised on 21st century lines with

with more

reorganised on 21st century lines with more meckenisation

with more meckenisation and

reorganised on 21st century lines with more meckenisation and which

with more meckenisation and which will

will create

with more meckenisation and which will create less

will create less jobs.

with more meckenisation and which will create less jobs. That

will create less jobs. That doesn't

will create less jobs. That doesn't please

please many

will create less jobs. That doesn't please many who

please many who work

will create less jobs. That doesn't please many who work in

please many who work in the

please many who work in the industry

industry today?

please many who work in the industry today? If

industry today? If we

please many who work in the industry today? If we don't

industry today? If we don't transform

transform the

industry today? If we don't transform the mining

transform the mining industrial

transform the mining industrial future,

future, we

transform the mining industrial future, we won't

future, we won't be

transform the mining industrial future, we won't be able

future, we won't be able to

transform the mining industrial future, we won't be able to deal

future, we won't be able to deal with

with health

future, we won't be able to deal with health and

with health and safety.

future, we won't be able to deal with health and safety. You

with health and safety. You can't

with health and safety. You can't mine

mine four

with health and safety. You can't mine four kilometres

with health and safety. You can't mine four kilometres underground

mine four kilometres underground with

with unskilled

mine four kilometres underground with unskilled labour.

with unskilled labour. What

mine four kilometres underground with unskilled labour. What I

with unskilled labour. What I proposed

proposed in

with unskilled labour. What I proposed in a

proposed in a wide

with unskilled labour. What I proposed in a wide ranging

proposed in a wide ranging speech

proposed in a wide ranging speech is

is to

proposed in a wide ranging speech is to look

is to look at

proposed in a wide ranging speech is to look at the

is to look at the kind

proposed in a wide ranging speech is to look at the kind of

is to look at the kind of transformation

transformation of

is to look at the kind of transformation of the

transformation of the industry

transformation of the industry which

which creates

transformation of the industry which creates new

which creates new jobs.

transformation of the industry which creates new jobs. I

which creates new jobs. I proposed,

which creates new jobs. I proposed, and

and we

which creates new jobs. I proposed, and we are

and we are already

which creates new jobs. I proposed, and we are already experimenting

and we are already experimenting within

within Gold

and we are already experimenting within Gold Fields,

within Gold Fields, with

and we are already experimenting within Gold Fields, with going

within Gold Fields, with going back

within Gold Fields, with going back to

to linking

within Gold Fields, with going back to linking the

to linking the so-called

within Gold Fields, with going back to linking the so-called labour

to linking the so-called labour standing

standing areas

to linking the so-called labour standing areas with

standing areas with the

to linking the so-called labour standing areas with the mining

standing areas with the mining industry

industry so

standing areas with the mining industry so we

industry so we can

standing areas with the mining industry so we can have

industry so we can have the

standing areas with the mining industry so we can have the east

industry so we can have the east Eastern

Eastern Cape,

industry so we can have the east Eastern Cape, for

Eastern Cape, for example,

Eastern Cape, for example, providing

providing the

Eastern Cape, for example, providing the food,

providing the food, becoming

Eastern Cape, for example, providing the food, becoming the

providing the food, becoming the food

food basket

providing the food, becoming the food basket of

food basket of the

providing the food, becoming the food basket of the mining

food basket of the mining industry.

food basket of the mining industry. That

That is

food basket of the mining industry. That is not

That is not destroying

food basket of the mining industry. That is not destroying jobs,

That is not destroying jobs, that

That is not destroying jobs, that is

is creating

That is not destroying jobs, that is creating new

is creating new jobs,

That is not destroying jobs, that is creating new jobs, new

is creating new jobs, new livelihoods.

livelihoods. In

is creating new jobs, new livelihoods. In fact,

livelihoods. In fact, uniting

livelihoods. In fact, uniting miners

miners with

livelihoods. In fact, uniting miners with their

miners with their families.

livelihoods. In fact, uniting miners with their families. How

miners with their families. How can

miners with their families. How can that

that be

miners with their families. How can that be said

that be said to

miners with their families. How can that be said to be

that be said to be something

miners with their families. How can that be said to be something which

that be said to be something which we

we shouldn't

that be said to be something which we shouldn't be

we shouldn't be experimenting

that be said to be something which we shouldn't be experimenting with

we shouldn't be experimenting with and

and celebrating?

we shouldn't be experimenting with and celebrating? But

and celebrating? But when

we shouldn't be experimenting with and celebrating? But when you

and celebrating? But when you launched

launched your

and celebrating? But when you launched your movement

launched your movement a

and celebrating? But when you launched your movement a few

launched your movement a few days

launched your movement a few days ago,

ago, the

launched your movement a few days ago, the Let's

ago, the Let's Build

launched your movement a few days ago, the Let's Build movement,

ago, the Let's Build movement, and

ago, the Let's Build movement, and talked

talked about

ago, the Let's Build movement, and talked about entering

talked about entering politics,

talked about entering politics, maybe

maybe even

talked about entering politics, maybe even fighting

maybe even fighting the

talked about entering politics, maybe even fighting the next

maybe even fighting the next set

talked about entering politics, maybe even fighting the next set of

maybe even fighting the next set of elections

elections in

maybe even fighting the next set of elections in South

elections in South Africa,

maybe even fighting the next set of elections in South Africa, what

elections in South Africa, what we

elections in South Africa, what we didn't

didn't hear

elections in South Africa, what we didn't hear from

didn't hear from you

elections in South Africa, what we didn't hear from you were

didn't hear from you were very

didn't hear from you were very specific

specific measures

didn't hear from you were very specific measures in

specific measures in the

didn't hear from you were very specific measures in the economy

specific measures in the economy that

that would

specific measures in the economy that would address

that would address the

specific measures in the economy that would address the inequality

that would address the inequality gap

gap I

that would address the inequality gap I talked

gap I talked about,

that would address the inequality gap I talked about, that

gap I talked about, that might

gap I talked about, that might address

address the

gap I talked about, that might address the anger

address the anger we

gap I talked about, that might address the anger we see,

address the anger we see, not

gap I talked about, that might address the anger we see, not just

address the anger we see, not just from

from certain

address the anger we see, not just from certain people,

from certain people, but

address the anger we see, not just from certain people, but many

from certain people, but many people.

people. Land

from certain people, but many people. Land reform

people. Land reform hasn't

from certain people, but many people. Land reform hasn't really

people. Land reform hasn't really happened

happened in

people. Land reform hasn't really happened in South

happened in South Africa,

people. Land reform hasn't really happened in South Africa, the

happened in South Africa, the fact

happened in South Africa, the fact that

that still

happened in South Africa, the fact that still the

that still the vast

happened in South Africa, the fact that still the vast majority

that still the vast majority of

that still the vast majority of land

land and

that still the vast majority of land and assets

land and assets and

that still the vast majority of land and assets and wealth

land and assets and wealth in

that still the vast majority of land and assets and wealth in the

land and assets and wealth in the country

country disproportionately

land and assets and wealth in the country disproportionately sit

country disproportionately sit in

country disproportionately sit in white

white hands.

country disproportionately sit in white hands. What

white hands. What are

country disproportionately sit in white hands. What are your

white hands. What are your specific

white hands. What are your specific measures

measures to

white hands. What are your specific measures to address

measures to address these

measures to address these structural

structural issues

measures to address these structural issues in

structural issues in your

measures to address these structural issues in your country?

structural issues in your country? The

The first

structural issues in your country? The first is

The first is the

structural issues in your country? The first is the transformation

The first is the transformation of

The first is the transformation of the

the primary

The first is the transformation of the primary industry

the primary industry of

The first is the transformation of the primary industry of agriculture

the primary industry of agriculture and

and mining

the primary industry of agriculture and mining which

and mining which includes

the primary industry of agriculture and mining which includes issues

and mining which includes issues of

and mining which includes issues of land

land reform.

and mining which includes issues of land reform. The

land reform. The biggest

and mining which includes issues of land reform. The biggest owner

land reform. The biggest owner of

land reform. The biggest owner of land

land is

land reform. The biggest owner of land is the

land is the state.

land reform. The biggest owner of land is the state. Our

land is the state. Our government

land is the state. Our government was

was meant

land is the state. Our government was meant to

was meant to have

land is the state. Our government was meant to have done

was meant to have done an

land is the state. Our government was meant to have done an audit

was meant to have done an audit of

was meant to have done an audit of state

state land

was meant to have done an audit of state land and

state land and been

was meant to have done an audit of state land and been able

state land and been able to

was meant to have done an audit of state land and been able to use

state land and been able to use that

that to

state land and been able to use that to close

that to close that

state land and been able to use that to close that gap.

that to close that gap. Second

state land and been able to use that to close that gap. Second -

that to close that gap. Second - the

the few

that to close that gap. Second - the few areas

the few areas where

that to close that gap. Second - the few areas where we

the few areas where we have

the few areas where we have succeeded

succeeded in

the few areas where we have succeeded in giving

succeeded in giving land

the few areas where we have succeeded in giving land to

succeeded in giving land to people,

succeeded in giving land to people, the

the government

succeeded in giving land to people, the government has

the government has failed

the government has failed phenomenally

phenomenally in

the government has failed phenomenally in supporting

phenomenally in supporting poor

phenomenally in supporting poor communities

communities to

phenomenally in supporting poor communities to be

communities to be able

phenomenally in supporting poor communities to be able to

communities to be able to use

phenomenally in supporting poor communities to be able to use the

communities to be able to use the land

land productively.

communities to be able to use the land productively. But

land productively. But we

communities to be able to use the land productively. But we also,

land productively. But we also, in

land productively. But we also, in my

my announcement

land productively. But we also, in my announcement speech,

my announcement speech, spoke

land productively. But we also, in my announcement speech, spoke about

my announcement speech, spoke about the

the largest

my announcement speech, spoke about the largest sector

the largest sector of

my announcement speech, spoke about the largest sector of our

the largest sector of our economy.

the largest sector of our economy. The

The services

the largest sector of our economy. The services sector.

The services sector. We

the largest sector of our economy. The services sector. We can't

The services sector. We can't take

The services sector. We can't take advantage

advantage of

The services sector. We can't take advantage of that

advantage of that to

The services sector. We can't take advantage of that to mop

advantage of that to mop up

The services sector. We can't take advantage of that to mop up the

advantage of that to mop up the large

large number

advantage of that to mop up the large number of

large number of young

advantage of that to mop up the large number of young people

large number of young people because

because we

large number of young people because we haven't

because we haven't got

large number of young people because we haven't got an

because we haven't got an effective,

because we haven't got an effective, high

high quality

because we haven't got an effective, high quality education

high quality education and

because we haven't got an effective, high quality education and training

high quality education and training system.

system. We

high quality education and training system. We need

system. We need to

high quality education and training system. We need to have

system. We need to have an

system. We need to have an immediate

immediate focus

system. We need to have an immediate focus on

immediate focus on training

system. We need to have an immediate focus on training young

immediate focus on training young people

people for

immediate focus on training young people for the

people for the services

immediate focus on training young people for the services sector.

people for the services sector. We

people for the services sector. We can

can take

people for the services sector. We can take people

can take people who

people for the services sector. We can take people who are

can take people who are unskilled

can take people who are unskilled and

and semi-skilled

can take people who are unskilled and semi-skilled and

and semi-skilled and put

can take people who are unskilled and semi-skilled and put them

and semi-skilled and put them in

and semi-skilled and put them in work

work places

and semi-skilled and put them in work places where

work places where they

and semi-skilled and put them in work places where they will

work places where they will learn

work places where they will learn on

on the

work places where they will learn on the job.

on the job. That

work places where they will learn on the job. That will

on the job. That will be

work places where they will learn on the job. That will be extremely

on the job. That will be extremely helpful

helpful and

on the job. That will be extremely helpful and in

helpful and in fact

on the job. That will be extremely helpful and in fact create

helpful and in fact create a

helpful and in fact create a productive,

productive, competitive

helpful and in fact create a productive, competitive economy.

productive, competitive economy. Why

Why don't

productive, competitive economy. Why don't you

Why don't you lend

productive, competitive economy. Why don't you lend your

Why don't you lend your weight

productive, competitive economy. Why don't you lend your weight and

Why don't you lend your weight and authority

authority and

Why don't you lend your weight and authority and experience

authority and experience to

Why don't you lend your weight and authority and experience to the

authority and experience to the existing

existing South

authority and experience to the existing South African

existing South African opposition

existing South African opposition who

who have

existing South African opposition who have used

who have used the

existing South African opposition who have used the same

who have used the same sort

existing South African opposition who have used the same sort of

who have used the same sort of language

language about

who have used the same sort of language about where

language about where South

who have used the same sort of language about where South Africa

language about where South Africa needs

needs to

language about where South Africa needs to go

needs to go that

language about where South Africa needs to go that you

needs to go that you do?

language about where South Africa needs to go that you do? I'm

needs to go that you do? I'm thinking

thinking of

needs to go that you do? I'm thinking of course

thinking of course of

needs to go that you do? I'm thinking of course of the

thinking of course of the Democratic

Democratic Alliance.

thinking of course of the Democratic Alliance. You

Democratic Alliance. You have

thinking of course of the Democratic Alliance. You have a

Democratic Alliance. You have a long-standing

long-standing relationship

Democratic Alliance. You have a long-standing relationship with

long-standing relationship with the

long-standing relationship with the leader.

leader. Why

long-standing relationship with the leader. Why don't

leader. Why don't you

long-standing relationship with the leader. Why don't you join

leader. Why don't you join and

long-standing relationship with the leader. Why don't you join and help

leader. Why don't you join and help her?

her? Because

leader. Why don't you join and help her? Because this

her? Because this country

leader. Why don't you join and help her? Because this country needs

her? Because this country needs a

her? Because this country needs a much

much larger

her? Because this country needs a much larger vision,

much larger vision, much

her? Because this country needs a much larger vision, much larger

much larger vision, much larger willingness.

willingness. A

much larger vision, much larger willingness. A greater

willingness. A greater willingness

willingness. A greater willingness to

to take

willingness. A greater willingness to take risks

to take risks to

willingness. A greater willingness to take risks to address

to take risks to address the

to take risks to address the fundamental

fundamental structural

to take risks to address the fundamental structural problems

fundamental structural problems in

fundamental structural problems in our

our economy

fundamental structural problems in our economy and

our economy and society.

fundamental structural problems in our economy and society. The

our economy and society. The current

current political

our economy and society. The current political parties,

current political parties, whether

current political parties, whether they

they are

current political parties, whether they are in

they are in opposition

current political parties, whether they are in opposition or

they are in opposition or in

they are in opposition or in government,

government, have

they are in opposition or in government, have not

government, have not dealt

they are in opposition or in government, have not dealt with

government, have not dealt with apartheid's

apartheid's geography,

government, have not dealt with apartheid's geography, for

apartheid's geography, for example.

apartheid's geography, for example. They

They have

apartheid's geography, for example. They have not

They have not dealt

apartheid's geography, for example. They have not dealt with

They have not dealt with the

They have not dealt with the fundamental

fundamental problem

They have not dealt with the fundamental problem of

fundamental problem of a

They have not dealt with the fundamental problem of a failing

fundamental problem of a failing education

education system.

fundamental problem of a failing education system. They

education system. They have

fundamental problem of a failing education system. They have not

education system. They have not dealt

dealt with

education system. They have not dealt with the

dealt with the fundamental

education system. They have not dealt with the fundamental problems

dealt with the fundamental problems of

of a

dealt with the fundamental problems of a failing

of a failing health

dealt with the fundamental problems of a failing health system

of a failing health system because

of a failing health system because in

in the

of a failing health system because in the heart

in the heart of

of a failing health system because in the heart of that

in the heart of that is

of a failing health system because in the heart of that is the

in the heart of that is the issue

in the heart of that is the issue of

of how

in the heart of that is the issue of how do

of how do we

in the heart of that is the issue of how do we frame

of how do we frame a

in the heart of that is the issue of how do we frame a public

of how do we frame a public service

of how do we frame a public service which

which is

of how do we frame a public service which is competent,

which is competent, professional

which is competent, professional and

and meritocratic?

which is competent, professional and meritocratic? Hang

and meritocratic? Hang on,

which is competent, professional and meritocratic? Hang on, with

and meritocratic? Hang on, with respect,

respect, you

and meritocratic? Hang on, with respect, you can't

respect, you can't really

and meritocratic? Hang on, with respect, you can't really blame

respect, you can't really blame the

respect, you can't really blame the opposition

opposition for

respect, you can't really blame the opposition for failing

opposition for failing to

respect, you can't really blame the opposition for failing to deal

opposition for failing to deal with

opposition for failing to deal with that.

that. They

opposition for failing to deal with that. They never

that. They never had

opposition for failing to deal with that. They never had power

that. They never had power on

opposition for failing to deal with that. They never had power on a

that. They never had power on a national

national level.

that. They never had power on a national level. My

national level. My question

that. They never had power on a national level. My question is

national level. My question is again

again this,

national level. My question is again this, why

again this, why not

national level. My question is again this, why not lend

again this, why not lend your

again this, why not lend your weight

weight to

again this, why not lend your weight to their

weight to their efforts?

again this, why not lend your weight to their efforts? It

weight to their efforts? It just

weight to their efforts? It just seems

seems perhaps

weight to their efforts? It just seems perhaps there's

seems perhaps there's something

weight to their efforts? It just seems perhaps there's something of

seems perhaps there's something of ego

ego and

seems perhaps there's something of ego and vanity

ego and vanity about

seems perhaps there's something of ego and vanity about your

ego and vanity about your determination

determination to

ego and vanity about your determination to define

determination to define your

ego and vanity about your determination to define your own

determination to define your own political

political party?

determination to define your own political party? The

political party? The issue

determination to define your own political party? The issue is

political party? The issue is not

political party? The issue is not ego.

ego. The

political party? The issue is not ego. The issue

ego. The issue is,

political party? The issue is not ego. The issue is, where

ego. The issue is, where we

political party? The issue is not ego. The issue is, where we are

ego. The issue is, where we are sitting,

sitting, identity

ego. The issue is, where we are sitting, identity politics

sitting, identity politics is

ego. The issue is, where we are sitting, identity politics is not

sitting, identity politics is not something

something that

sitting, identity politics is not something that you

something that you can

sitting, identity politics is not something that you can discount.

something that you can discount. People

People don't

something that you can discount. People don't feel

People don't feel at

something that you can discount. People don't feel at home.

People don't feel at home. Do

something that you can discount. People don't feel at home. Do you

People don't feel at home. Do you mean

mean to

People don't feel at home. Do you mean to say

mean to say you

People don't feel at home. Do you mean to say you can't

mean to say you can't back

People don't feel at home. Do you mean to say you can't back Helen

mean to say you can't back Helen Zila

Zila because

mean to say you can't back Helen Zila because she's

Zila because she's a

mean to say you can't back Helen Zila because she's a white

Zila because she's a white woman

mean to say you can't back Helen Zila because she's a white woman in

Zila because she's a white woman in the

the leadership

Zila because she's a white woman in the leadership of

the leadership of a

Zila because she's a white woman in the leadership of a main

the leadership of a main opposition

the leadership of a main opposition party?

party? Don't

the leadership of a main opposition party? Don't put

party? Don't put words

the leadership of a main opposition party? Don't put words in

party? Don't put words in my

the leadership of a main opposition party? Don't put words in my mouth.

party? Don't put words in my mouth. I'm

I'm talking

party? Don't put words in my mouth. I'm talking about

I'm talking about the

party? Don't put words in my mouth. I'm talking about the reality

I'm talking about the reality of

I'm talking about the reality of South

South African

I'm talking about the reality of South African politics,

South African politics, it's

South African politics, it's politics

politics where

South African politics, it's politics where identity

politics where identity matters.

South African politics, it's politics where identity matters. We

politics where identity matters. We need

need to

politics where identity matters. We need to frame

need to frame a

politics where identity matters. We need to frame a South

need to frame a South Africanness

need to frame a South Africanness that

that goes

need to frame a South Africanness that goes beyond

that goes beyond the

need to frame a South Africanness that goes beyond the traditional

that goes beyond the traditional divisions.

divisions. The

that goes beyond the traditional divisions. The ANC,

divisions. The ANC, for

that goes beyond the traditional divisions. The ANC, for example,

divisions. The ANC, for example, when