Mehmet Simsek - Finance Minister, Turkey HARDtalk

have died so far. Those of you latest headlines. It

is no time for HARDtalk. -- it is now.

Welcome to HARDtalk. Here in the Turkish capital, Ankara. My guess

today is a key member of the government. The finance minister,

Mehmet Simsek. Why have anti- government demonstrations erupted

right across tricky like never before on to the ruling party? And

after the initial crack down, actually strengthened the

protesters. Now the government critics at home and abroad are

criticising what they claim is an authoritarian style of political

Mehmet Simsek, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. The justice and

Development Party, known as the AK party, has been in power for ten

years. But you have to exit that these protests are a wake-up call.

Yes. The unrest of the past few weeks has certainly been on the

scale that we were caught by surprise. We will come people

protest. -- welcome peaceful. It is an essential part of democracy.

how were you caught by surprise? Leaders tend to have a pulse on

what the voters think. We are actually connected to people. My

Government is a very popular government. Yes, we have been in

power were for her over a decade. We have won seven elections. Three

general elections, essentially. Three general elections. So why

were the protests a surprise if you know what people think? Would

started off as peaceful environ mental protests over a development

in Istanbul turned into a very violent street level protest. I

think what has happened, while the initial protest was essentially by

a peaceful, law-abiding citizens concerned that the park, later on

these protests were heightened by extremist groups, militant groups,

even some that were involved in terrorist acts. I will ask you a

bad way you think people have been protesting, but let us look at the

way the Government has handled it. The security forces have been

criticised inside and outside Turkey by the heavy-handed response.

Is that warranted? The excessive use of force is being investigated.

We have already suspended a number of police officers, as well as in

number of City workers. This is a democratic country. The rule of law

applies. Anybody who makes a mistake will be accountable for it.

But no country will tolerate significant attacks on public

property or private property. their attacks, with their waters,

where the shops attacked? Newly 300 police cars were Bridge. Private

property? Yes. 965 policemen were injured. Still some of them are in

hospital. The Turkish Human Rights Foundation says that 5,000 people

were injured. According to us, 1,200 people were accepted to

hospitals. Only 55 private citizens are still being treated. Most of

the injuries were very light. that is not we are hearing. We are

hearing reports from Human Rights Watch and from journalists,

actually witnessed things, people have got brain injuries. A dozen

young people have lost their eyes because of plastic bullets. To gas

cartridges have injured people. Even people from your own party, a

culture minister, has said there has been excessive use of force.

There have been harsh and unnecessary orders. It has made the

situation worse. I think it has allowed extremist groups to hijack

the protest. That is the case. We have strong evidence of that. It

has been very violent. I understand you're saying that. But what I am

saying is that there is clear evidence, for instance a public

opinion from interviewed 5,000 protesters. It said that many

people, Unionists, university students, decided to join the

protests after they saw the response of the security forces. So

you have made things worse. That may well be partially true. But

what I am saying, at the beginning, the initial response may not be

what we would have tried. But in the latter days, clearly these

protests were hijacked. They were used by the extremists. It was

highly violent. The police had note was but to protect the citizens. --

no choice. That would be the case in any civilised nation. But the

point I am making is that there are concerns over the disproportionate

and excessive use of force by Turkish police. Is the

disproportionate element... Some say it is important that the heavy-

handed response to the protest resulted in many injuries. It is

still a major part of the problem. There are still arbitrary

detentions. Do you know how many people are in detention? Only 80.

You rested over 2000 in London for vandalism. The point is, and the

eight people are in detention. Only eight. We need to recognise that

international media has represented and grossly is exaggerated events.

You have to accept the fact that were to are presenting to me right

now may not necessarily hold. We need to make a distinction between

peaceful, law-abiding citizens. We have had their plea. The Prime

Minister has already met these protesters. We hear them. We

responded. But the violent, extremist, terrorist groups, in no

country can they be tolerated. about those civilians who say that

they are still receiving treatment. Are they the anarchists, the

terrorists, the writer is that the Prime Minister referred to? Some

are. And some aren't.When you have big public events like this, in any

country when you have an rest on this scale, even ordinary citizens

can be affected. Is it a matter of regret for the Turkish government?

Of course. We regret that peaceful citizens were caught between

violent protesters and police trying to contain them. No question

about that. And police using excessive force. Yes, in the early

days. And you will be investigating? You have already

done that? Of course. In due course, there has to be investigations.

police chiefs can be sacked, conceivably? Yes. If they have

broken the war Mac, yes. What about the Prime Minister's popularity

ratings. They have gone down by 11%. That opinion poll is full of walls.

If you look at the sheer of parties, it does not add up to 100. But let

us forget about that. There are numerous polls about that. Some

shows support for the ruling party is still running at about 50%.

Which is what you want at the elections? What about the 50% who

did not bat you? To their opinions count? They do. We carer that that.

We are not just about the majority. We represent everybody. My

Government is a government of 76 million people. So you are not

going to retreat and appeal more to social Conservatives? Absolutely

not. We at the government of the entire nation. Just because people

out there did not vote for us and disagree with our policies, they

still deserve respect and to be heard. There are a lot of

criticisms. Protesters personalised a lot of their anger on the Prime

Minister. You know the kind of things. But you have an example

here, that he became authoritarian. He started to act as if he had a

large popular mandate was sufficient for his government to

adopt laws without serious consideration. As the party built

their power base, they became less likely to listen to opposing views.

That is not true. Let me tell you this. The Prime Minister is a

reformist. A lot of change in this country took place politically,

economically and socially. It has been a product of his commitment to

more fundamental rights and freedoms. More openness, more

transparency. How many readers out there self imposed two terms?

cannot run again as Prime Minister. Exactly. But he may run again as

president. It is up to him. You are talking about hypothetical stuff.

He has not put himself forward as a candidate. There has been talk that

the AK party wants to change the institution to make it more

presidential. The President would have new palace and could govern

the country without recourse to Parliament. What you have just said

is only partially true. We would like to change the constitution.

But we want to change it because the current constitution was

written after a military coup. We would like to boost fundamental

rights and freedoms. Essentially, a constitution where every single

citizen says this belongs to me, this is my constitution. A directly

elected president is one of the things the AK party would like.

would like people to debate various forms of executive palate. Where

people to sit over a parliamentary system. The authoritarianism I have

told you, they. To the constitutional changes. I'll give

you another example. They do not like the fact that the AK party is

focusing on the lifestyle. They do not like to hear statements from

the Prime Minister that we should have three children. People should

not drink. He says somebody who has a glass of wine in a week is an

He said, if you drink two or three glasses of wine per week you were

an art college. He corrected it.He went from two glasses to three

glasses. More people have been drinking. When did this happen? It

happened under our rules. What we have done, like any other civilised

and democratic countries, we put some restrictions on the hours of

alcohol. A I did not say anything about the hours of 6pm and 10pm.

That was not the point I was making. It is those kinds of things which

people 0.2 and you get someone like a professor from the University in

Ankara or saying that the party is focusing on replacing secular

values with Conservative interpretations of Islam. These

people are not making these things up. I could get you 20 professors

and would say exactly the opposite. I could get you think tanks. We are

not imposing a way of life on anybody. These people, I over the

last decade, had become freer, more prosperous -- prosperous and this

country has become more democratic. There was emphasis on people that

do not want those decisions to be removed. People want to maintain

the status quo. A lot of these people have never respected a more

democratic system. A system at equal footing regarding... Thinking

every individual choice. No-one is detracting.

The finance minister, the fact they have made huge strides economically.

The fact is, you could jeopardise all that when you have people like

the former chairman of Goldman Sachs St people like investors are

a fragile bunch. They want returns. I put it you that you are

jeopardising Turkey's desirability as a place to invest. By rebutting

the critics and St... We're not rebutting the critics. The point I

input into you, you're saying, there is no value to the criticism.

It is made by somebody who is made outside of Turkey. You're not

listening to the protesters. We have seen people from all walks of

life, trade union has, gay people, even people who have previously

voted for the A K party, saying they do not like the direction the

party is going on. We respect that. You are not hearing me. I have said

from the very beginning that there are people who disagree with our

policies. When we introduce these policies, there is opposition in

the government. All views are heard. When I go to the parliament to push

through a piece of legislation, representatives from a very broad

spectrum of think tanks, political parties, unions, they come and

express their opinions. Are you listening to them? When you hear of

things like the International Federation of journalists President

saying the Turkish government stopped intimidating journalists,

they fear censorship, we all know the figure... Censorship? The BBC

was not censored. You have live coverage of events uninterrupted.

There is not a single journalist right now - not a single journalist

- that is in custody. But reporters without borders say 72 media

personnel in Turkey - more than any other country. Some were caught

robbing banks, killing people. If you are a journalist, you cannot

commit any crimes? Every single one of them - if you go to the whims of

the justice ministry, all those 70 people they claim to be journalists

were actually involved in one form or another in a form of violence or

a terrorist act. You can go. Some of these guys have been prosecuted.

They are not in custody. I put this to you now, again, someone from I

think tank says that at first there was no risk to Recep Tayyip

Erdogan's rule but if it continues to be defined, he will speak in the

A K party. The former Culture and Tourism Minister says now it is

time for the party to be self critically aware. It Recep Tayyip

Erdogan turns out to be a liability and not a vote winner, could it be

asked by his party to step aside? He is elected by Elin it --

delegates. If they choose not to a lectin they have the free will to

do so. Has it been weakened by the protests? He has been strengthened.

The vast majority - the silent majority - understand that this

violence, these demonstrations, have gone beyond simple issues of,

let's say, a park or interference with the way of life. Just to give

you some colour - the Prime Minister is still very popular, the

Prime Minister is here because people choosing. He's not here

despite people. He is here and in fact his entire power base is from

people. It is not a wake up Coloroll it is business as usual?

It is a wake-up call that we need to... Like local decisions like

Gezi Park - we need have more dialogue with local residents

before we come up... And listen to the protesters. Yes, we are.Turkey

is demanding answers from the government because of allegations

its surveillance agency expired on somebody, including you, when you

attended the G20 summit in 2009 in London. What do you know about

this? We are shocked and appalled. These are allegations. If it is

proven to be true, it is a big scandal. Why? Because Turkey and

the United Kingdom are long-term allies. You know, we were very,

very surprised to hear about these allegations. The ministry of

foreign affairs is now in touch to see whether something like that did

take place or not. I am really surprise why they would need to do

that. If my British counterpart wanted to know my view on any

specific issue, I would have been more than happy to share my view

with him. There was no need to basically do this type of stuff.

Due credit for a diplomatic fall- out if these allegations are

substantiated? If they are substantiated, it would not look

good as far as Turkey - British relations. These relations are

built on mutual trust. And confidence. It would not look... It

would look very poorly. Certainly. A quick final point on the practice.

Do you think that is the end of it? The violent protests have subsided.

Police will produce a more than welcome. They are an essential part

of democracy. Do you think the protesters have been strengthened?

The real protesters are out there. We will listen to them. We have

already listen to them. The Prime Minister met them twice. The

President met them. Do you know why? We listen to them because we

agree that the fate of that art should be decided not by the

government that by... But it has gone beyond and Gezi Park. Would

you listen to people more now? course we will listen to them. We