Edi Rama - Prime Minister-Designate, Albania HARDtalk

head. You are up-to-date with the latest headlines. Now it is time for

HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. Albania is the single most corrupt

country in Europe, according to Transparency International. My guess

today, Edi Rama, has promised to change that when he becomes the

Prime Minister in September. A modern artist, he won international

plaudits for transforming the capital Tirana when he was a smear.

Not least by paintiny paintin build buildings in bright colours. Now he

has promised a renaissance for the whole country. Can he succeeds where

you for inviting me. Why are you likely to be more successful in

cleaning up Albania than previous politicians? This has two be seen

but I think it is time to clean up the country. -- has to. We are

talking about a country with immense problems. Transparency International

says you are the single most corrupt country in Europe and you are

slipping down the rankings. You are How will you address those

challenges? It is a country with a bad reputation. It is not totally

undeserved, of course. At the same time, it is a country with

incredible potential and an immense amount of talent. That is in the

country and leaving for abroad. To give you an example, at the time of

the elections, I made an appeal to all the people that are young and

talented inside or outside of the country who want to join the new

team for Albania and the response has been incredibly positive. Now we

have nearly 10,000 people making country. Of course, this will go

through competitions and procedures but the response has been incredibly

good. It means that there is hope and there is a strong will for

change. You talk about the terrible image for the country and one which

is not entirely undeserved. He once described it as the image of a land

of prostitutes and illegal immigrants. Do you think that is

still the perception of the country? This was something I said in the

90s. It was 2003 Uber reported to have said it. Maybe. It was a long

time ago. It is not true any longer. It was a disturbing stereotype for

Albanians. The population does not deserve to be described as a country

of prostitutes and so on. At the same time, I said it was not a

deserved image. We are trying to deal with it. As a matter of fact,

under the scrutiny of the European Union because of our process towards

European integration, problems, it very clearly. We need to take a look

at that. You have requested three consider Albania as a candidate,

just a candidate, and it has rejected each of those applications,

so you have not even got a foot in the process. That is because the

forms have not been significant true that one of the main problems,

may be the most disturbing one for the international community, has

been the elections. The electoral process. Finally, after a long time,

after many efforts and many sacrifices from the Albanian people

and the opposition, I have the privilege to lead. -- the opposition

I have the privilege to lead, we have had a normal election. Having

passed this test, we can be domestic about having a positive answer. You

would expect that? When?This year? I am hopeful that this will be the

case in December or next spring. There are many concerns, not least

corruption. We will get onto that in a minute. Let's talk about the

election. You say you talk about the immense challenges in turning the

country round. It is not clear that the public do think you are the man

for the job. You were eight years in opposition. In this election, you

only got one more seat than in the elections of four years ago. It was

actually your coalition partner, from the Socialist Movement for

Integration, that did very well. That party jumped from four to 16

seats. This man, you have chosen to go into government with him. He was

in the past government. Only two years ago you said that he

exemplified everything that was rotten about Albania. It is true we

have had a difficult past in terms of our relations inside the family

of the left. This party has been born out of the spirit of the

Socialist party. This is from some years ago. He has been in your

rival, your archenemy... Yes. We decided to unite the whole left and

enter into this campaign together with a coalition that succeeded. I

do not know the arithmetic of the seats because we have a different

system to hear. The amount of votes that we got, each of us, and at the

same time altogether, that is due to the fact that Albania is looking for

change. There are many reasons, but one of the reasons that you fell out

and were critical of each other was an incident from a couple of years

ago, video that appeared to show him discussing a bright and boasting of

his influence over the chief justice. That was at a time and he

was Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister. He has denied

wrongdoing and the Supreme Court dismissed the charges. When they

did, you reported in the local media -- you were reported in the national

towards towards an unjust regime. That is

all true. At the same time, it is totally true that we need to look

forward and give the Albanian people an alternative for change. We did

that. We won the elections on the base of that programme. There was a

programme for an Albanian Renaissance. The other field

promises. -- they were field promises. We are now in front of the

test, the exam. I know that you want to look for?I ? to look fornt to

deal with significant events in Albania's yesterday. That video

caused a great deal of concern. -- history. The other anticorruption

demonstrations at which four people were killed by the National Guard,

who were shooting from his office. You have said, and those cards were

senior police officers, they were charged, acquitted, and you

described it as the most barbarous decision for the most barbarous

crime. This all stems from something two years ago. It is hard to see how

you cannot deal with it. I don't what I have said two years ago. I

think it is up to me to challenge the problems of the country,

together with everyone that is ready to do it. As I said, we have two

engagements. One of the engagements is to follow with all of the will

the process that is supposed to be brought in of justice and to give

the right decision against all of them who were responsible for the

in government at the time, he was clear responsibilities. This will be

sorted out by the court. We will come onto that. This man who will be

come onto that. This man who will be part of your government, you are

confident that he is clean. In your Renaissance of Albania, this is a

man you can do business with because he is clean. You are confident of

that? I strongly believe that when one has to deal with corruption and

one has to deal with the deep problems created by corruption, you

must always remember it is the system of corrupt people and not

vice-versa. I believe that fighting corruption ?I ? corruption g the

system and making less and less possible for people to take

advantage from above the system. as far as those cards were

concerned, there were four killings, you said that you are assured

everyone that the events of that day, the 21st of January 2000 11,

one of the things that you said was that there would be a public trial

of the reader that would begin after the elections. Are you proposing to

put him on trial? I am saying that this event cannot be forgotten. It

cannot be judged in the old way. The old process was farcical. We will

take all that we can as measures to provide real assistance for the

families of the victims and provide should be independent. The courts

have dealt with it. So there will be an appeal of the ruling? I think it

is postponed at the moment. Despite what you said at the time and have

said since, he will not be tried or put on trial in any for this?

is not about what I think of what I want, it is about the justice system

process. When I talk about him, I'd have said that he has all the

responsibility in terms of moral and political responsibility. He is an

out of government. The trial has two be done before the election? I have

said that we will do everything that we can to have a process when the

families are dealt with properly. Let's move on to corruption. It is

one of the biggest concerns from the European Union and about many

Albanians. One of the things that you are no -- that you're no college

said about you was that you had created a big laundry to clean dirty

money. How clean your hands in this system that you say makes everyone

corrupt? We live in a civilisation in which it is the accusatory is

that have to prove the accused, not the other way round, very simply, I

say that we have left for a long time -- lived for a long time in the

political process that has been mostly about allegations, the trend

of old politics but I want to leave behind. The people of Albania want

to leave it behind. But it goes... You said... The elections have been

approved. Let's talk about the way of life in Albania. The people have

chosen the alternative of leading obverse behind. You say it is down

to the system. If you put an Albanian civil servant in Germany

because they -- they would not be corrupt but if you put Germans in

people, it is the system. It is a system you are in. Are you corrupt?

It is something else I am saying. I have proven it by leading for 11

years. By modernising the structure, you can table corruption. I hope all

of the recognition I have got internationally has proved this has

worked. We talked about transparency International. Albania flipped --

slipped 213. It is an evaluation of the governments. I have never been

in government. People have to pay. It is not just doctors. Throughout

the system... Explain. Everything you need to do and Albania, you have

to pay money. There are important experiences from others that

corruption is not God's punishment that were once it -- forever. It is

something that can be defeated. For example, we have a big problem. It

is in the management of customs. And tax collection. There is a lot of

corruption. That is why we are working hard to set up a new

procedure and get help from international organisations. For

example, the British organisation that has made success stories in

that has made success stories in Bulgaria, Ukraine, Macedonia and

others. Transforming the very corrupt Bulgarian customs, at that

time. Customs now? In Albania? How is it now? It is corrupt. You are

asking what I will do. Agave an example. I can give you many

examples. We have to find a way to make reforms in the healthcare

system that will transform the system from a broken one. There are

analysts talking about what you have to do. You have to go in and purged

the civil service. Get rid of all those people who have senior levels.

The place. We have a wholesale clear up of people within the government

and the Administration of Albania? Member. We do not need to do this.

-- no. We have frontal people in the system. We need to transform the

system. We have to follow success stories abroad. There are many

success stories. Even in very difficult situations. Much more

difficult in Albania. It shows that corruption is to fit a bull. And we

will defeat corruption. We need very deep reforms and a very strong will.

We have heard. We have the platform for reforms. You have a broken

many countries that are in problems. The finances are in such

problems. The finances are in such aid poor st?I ? aid poor sto go

to the IMF. Will you? We are waiting for a special programme of IMF and

World Bank assessors. They will assess the stability of our

financial sector. Hopefully, this programme will end before we come up

with the new budget. It is the kind of programme that will give you the

reality of the financial sector and suggestions. We will discuss the

opportunities. What they have talked about, you're ambitious programme,

there is no fiscal room for major investments. The scale of the things

you are talking about, creating new jobs, scrapping the flat rate 10%

income tax and introducing progressive rates, which will mean

95% of working people are better off. It is difficult to see how you

can afford that. That is why I was elected. To do difficult things.

is difficult but not impossible. We need to defeat corruption.

off a fair amount of money. Bringing in 50% of it will give artists a

fair amount of money. Will give our smart. That is a very neutral

translation. When we talk about free healthcare, I have in mind that the

NHS. The NHS is not cheap. A safely for the people, not the State.

does not exist. We have a system in Albania which is practically broken.

That is based on health insurance. As a matter of fact, we have a very

large amount of people out of the system because they cannot pay the

insurance. These are things that cost money. USA it is going to come

from cleaning up corruption. It is one of the ways to answer your

question. Of course we have two create... It means a better

environment?I ? environmentaving more investments and more revenue.

We are not elected to invent the wheel. The bill has been invented.

We have to follow the track of advised by about five to ten's

former Prime Minister? -- being advertised by Britain's former Prime

Minister. We understand seemed how he can us. We are going forward

-based ensemble territories. Do not lose focus and get reforms done.

it will turn Albania into what? What should be the perception of Albania?

Nice. Normal. Very attractive. A small but functioning country. This

is absolutely possible. We don't have a functioning state but we have

people who have shown that when they are put in the condition to work,

they will. As they do here, in Italy, in Greece. They are the same