Ngugi Wa Thiong'o - Author HARDtalk

uprising began in 2011. Those are the latest headlines. Now it is time

for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. My guess today is one of Africa's

greatest living writers, tipped to win the Nobel Prize for literature.

He decided he is ago not to write novels in English, Art in Gikuyu,

his mother tongue. Or the one has written -- Ngugi Wa Thiong'o has

written extraordinary memoirs. Have South Africans forgotten the

struggles that brought independence? Has that independence been a

disappointment? -- Young Africans. Ngugi Wa Thiong'o, welcome to

HARDtalk. Thank you. One of your volumes of memoirs opens with you as

a small boy, returning home from school. The village had been

destroyed. Your mother and family were moved into protection by the

British. It is a stark moment to open your memoirs. How much to you

still remember that the moment? Yes. In my latest memoir. That

moment is very strong in me. Sometimes, when I read from the

memoir, a particular section, I feel a bit emotional. But it theory -- my

eyes are the field. The emotion comes back, unexpectedly. -- my eyes

are filled with tears. It was from 1955 -- the emotion comes back.

Discovered in my novels, there is this idea of return and to the

disappointment that might come with the unexpected happening. The theme

of return is there. In all my novels. I did not know but its roots

were in that experience. It is interesting you say that, because

you have been in exile from your native country for 30 years. I

wondered in terms of the destruction that was done in Candia -- Kenya in

the 50s. The Mau Mau uprising. The British said we would finally paid

reparations to some victims. What do you think about that? The British

litter relief destroyed our whole culture, our tradition. Our lives

were turned upside down. That image of desolation, returning home after

being away for three months. To the place you are born -- you were born.

You don't see anybody. Empty houses. An image of desolation. That is just

one image of what happened in the country. The actual destruction was

really widespread. I don't know how Europe at that. How you could ever.

Your brother was shot, and that can never be undone. One of my brothers

ran to the mountains, he was a guerrilla fighter. Another brother,

a half brother, who was dead. When the British forces came, they came

suddenly and surrounded the whole village. People say they are coming.

They would run away. My half brother who was deaf could not hear

anything. They shot him. What do you say to those, some historians who

say that Mau Mau were exceptionally brutal people. They murdered their

own as well as whites. All my writings have been against that kind

of attitude. At some point, people must take responsibility. Even

though it is a different generation? Yes. Nothing. Nothing. It is good.

The only good element is an element of acknowledgement in all the

torture. He removal. There was one guy, he used to cut off the years of

the date and I don't know what he did with those ears. It was so

brutal new kind of... It is quite difficult to put it into words.

problem was that word the Mau Mau brutal, to? Of course, yes. They are

fighting a war against an occupier. One brutality is in order to oppress

and exploit, to dominate. The other brutality is to liberate. To get rid

of brutal aggressors. You cannot equate the two. We don't deny that

there are cruelties. You cannot say the cruelty of the guy who is a

pressing is the same as those who are saying, don't sit on my back.

Through your work, there is a fascinating conflict between the way

you view the British as oppressors, and to the way in which you went to

a British school, which you clearly, which clearly helped you.

Reading Shakespeare, for example. It liberated you. You are both

oppressed and the liberated by the British. We are talking about a

colonial system. We are talking about people being against a system

that oppressors. The colonial state, by any definition,

particularly a colonial settler state, is in a pressing state. For

one thing, this state means that you come and take away land that belongs

to the natives. Even at the start of your memoir, you talk about

depending on whether you were a black African, or white, you went to

a different toilet. A different world. It is an apartheid system.

Toilets for Africans, Asians only. The point you are getting out, you

talk about Shakespeare -- characters becoming the and daily friends. You

like some bits of British culture, but you loathe that it's...

cultures, African, Asian, European. There are positive elements. There

are democratic and humanist elements in every culture. In every culture,

including British culture, they are elements that are operative and

backward. You cannot condemn a whole culture, to say there is nothing to

learn from say, African culture, English culture. They all offer

something to learn. Shakespeare is very interesting, because

Shakespeare was a safe subject. There is nothing more British than

Shakespeare. You read his work. You read the struggle for power.

Macbeth, it is very brutal. They kill their guests at night. They

want power. The historic place. Take any play by Shakespeare, and what is

interesting is not the athletic -- ascetic, it is the struggle for

power. He wrote a very eloquently that the bullet was the means of

physical subjugation, language is the means of spiritual subs --

subjugation. It is part of the journey of your life, to write not

in English, are to write in Gikuyu. Why did you take that decision?

Because language is so basic to any community. What I found is

interesting. What ever -- we never want people colonise another, they

always impose their language. took the decision while you were in

prison, ironically, after the colonial powers had left. It was a

Kenyan who put you in prison because you were aged dangerous writer.

point of language is that after some time, you become a part of their

metaphysical empire. In Empire of the mind. The mind, language, that

is central to the idea of a physical empire. The way I look at it is

this. If all languages for me are a wonderful human achievement, they

are wonderful languages. But at Rotherham has been in a system of

impression -- problem has been. Some languages say we are better than

others. We are better than that language, it that culture. Not just

better, higher. It is in terms of the high rocky of power and the

relationship between languages. -- relationship of power. I wonder if,

as you know, a great African writer took a different approach. He

suggested that it was not the case that you put. But also, a younger

Nigerian writer says that English is my language. She has taken over

English. I wonder if your use of this world of that time, of the 50s

and 60s. Younger African writers take a different view. English not

-- English is not an African language,. . We have genuine African

languages. He is a quote. English is mine, I have taken ownership of

English. She has decolonised us all. No. She is still colonised? Claiming

something is colonising it. That does not mean that what she does

with English is wonderful. I have no doubt... We should not perceive it

as that. When we do that we are contributing to the expansion and

deepening of the English language. You translate your own works into

English. Isn't that contributing to colonisation? No, because

translation is a very important process, look at the contribution of

translations to the rise of literatures and languages. From

Latin. Early on, translation was very important to the rise of

European languages. Even Shakespeare would not have happened without the

context of translation. But Gikuyu, for all its importance and strength,

means you have a very limited market of people who will ever read your

work. But if you translate into English, you will get a greater

audience. That is a fallacy. Everyone says if you write in

English... You can write in saloon and the work can be translated into

English, into French and so on. -- you can write in Zulu. My question

is, can anybody else imagine French literature in Zulu? Where someone

says, oh, this is French literature, but really, it is written in Zulu?

Do you know what is happening right now? There are so many prizes right

now given in African literature. But you know the condition? Written in

English. We will promote African literature on the condition that you

do not use an African language. This is crazy. Can you imagine English

literature in Chinese? We are promoting English literature but it

must be right in Chinese? But I can think off Robbie Burns he writes an

old Scottish, which nobody reads. Let us move on to Kenyan and how you

think of the country 's top do you think after all of these struggles,

the struggles that your family went through and so on, the country is a

disappointment? Not really. The way I look at it is, look at where

Kenyan, where Africa has come from, really. And the depths from which we

have come. If you think how much Africa, the entire human bodies of

Africa, has contributed to the making of the old European cities

and so on, it is incredible we are even where we are. So, it is not

really... A disappointment in that respect. Achieving independence is

very important. However, problems are still there. The question of

empowering the people was always the question in the colonial struggles.

It is still a question today. into personalities in this as well?

It is not just great historical events, you have Mandela in South

Africa as opposed to Robert Mugabe will stop that is, there are

different leaders who have set a very different time and that has

been a problem for Kenyan. Nelson Mandela, he is very about

simplicity. You feel his power and so on. We are good allies, we're

great in one way. These people, these leaders, have been extremely

important. But we have also had dictators. And one thing that is

important about dictatorship in Africa, in tenure in particular, is

that it is something we do not want to admit. Many of these

dictatorships were actually supported by the West. There comes a

point where you have to take part in your own problems. Where you have to

say, for example, Rick Kenyatta, he is facing charges of human rights

abuses -- Uhuru Kenyatta. He is a very rich man who has inherited a

lot of wealth. Is that the future for Africa? There is the question of

us taking responsibility. And Africa taking responsibility for

everything, including the minerals, the gold, diamonds, zinc, copper,

oil... Everything that is now controlled by Western interest is in

Africa. I would like to see and Africa that. -- and Africa that

takes control of that. But you have to understand, African lives are not

dispensable. When it comes to the question of Kenyatta, -- Kenya, I

completely oppose people in Kenya not taking responsibility for the

violence. But look at the ICC. It has done more harm to the cause of

justice. The International Criminal Court? Really? Because they keep

focusing on Africa. And the Africa. You do not live in Africa. You have

been in exile for 30 years. Could you go back? When you returned 30

years ago, you were brutally attacked and so was your wife. Could

you live in Kenya now is Mack I could. Remembering that there are

problems in Kenyan. We have many challenges, economic challenges,

democratic space. We have to have that democratic space. We have to

have a space of empowerment for regular people and so on.

crime. Crime is a big challenge because you suffered for it.

also, when I talk about the ICC, that does not mean that Kenya should

not take responsibility for what happened, but what upsets me is when

for instance, Kenyan members of Parliament, when they were asked to

set up tribunal 's in the country, they said no, go to The Hague. The

Kenyan parliamentarians themselves. They said go to The Hague. For the

ICC. Yes. Now, they say imperialism. Hypocrisy. The ICC should be

criticised. It is doing a very bad job but at the same time, we cannot

use that as a cover to avoid our own responsibility for what we have done

and what happens in Africa. Just a couple of minutes left. I wonder if

you feel the current generation of young people in tenure and elsewhere

in Africa really care much about the independence struggle. It could be

seen as being two generations ago, nearly 60 years ago in Kenya. Do

they care? Do they read about it in history books? Oh, I am sure that

for many of them they care that it is not something they have

experienced directly. They have heard from their parents. And some

of them obviously it is remote. Just now, what they want is employment.

They want democratic empowerment. began our conversation talking about

you as a young boy coming home to see this scene of devastation and I

am just wondering what that young boy would make of you now, a

successful writer, a successful academic. What would that young boys

think of you? I would hope... I would hope he thinks I am still a

fighter. I am a fighter. The present situation in the world, whether

Britain or America or elsewhere, where the gap between the poor, or

what we call the haves and the have-nots is deepening and widening

whether here or in Britain, America, Arabia, this is not good

for the world. This is the basis of great instability. And then, there

is something else that is important, I think. If you have a prosperous

middle-class, there is development. But development whether it is

Britain, America, Kenya, South Africa or Asia, should be measured

not from the perspectives of those who are at the top of the mountain

the few who are at the top of the mountain, but be measured from the

needs and perspectives of those at the bottom of the mountain. Argue

hopeful that could change within your lifetime? Well, the struggle

continues. This struggle did not been yesterday -- did not begin

yesterday. Remember Charles Dickens. Who would have ever imagined the