Ambassador Amina Mohamed - Foreign Minister, Kenya HARDtalk

following days of high winds and

following days of high winds and heavy rains. Time now

following days of high winds and Hardtalkmed

Hardtalkmed

Hardtalkmed Welcome to Hardtalk. Kenya is the

Welcome to Hardtalk. Kenya is the

Welcome to Hardtalk. Kenya is the first country to have

Welcome to Hardtalk. Kenya is the first country to have a sitting

first country to have a sitting president

first country to have a sitting president and

first country to have a sitting president and Vice—President

first country to have a sitting president and Vice—President tried

president and Vice—President tried on

president and Vice—President tried on charges of

president and Vice—President tried humanity

president and Vice—President tried humanity at

president and Vice—President tried humanity at the

on charges of crimes against humanity at the

on charges of crimes against Criminal

humanity at the International Criminal

humanity at the International Criminal Court in The

humanity at the International Criminal Court in The Hague. They

Criminal Court in The Hague. They

Criminal Court in The Hague. They were accused

Criminal Court in The Hague. They were accused of orchestrating

Criminal Court in The Hague. They were accused of orchestrating ethnic

were accused of orchestrating ethnic

were accused of orchestrating ethnic based violence

were accused of orchestrating ethnic based violence in

were accused of orchestrating ethnic based violence in 2007

were accused of orchestrating ethnic based violence in 2007 in

were accused of orchestrating ethnic based violence in 2007 in which

were accused of orchestrating ethnic based violence in 2007 in which 1200

were accused of orchestrating ethnic were

based violence in 2007 in which 1200 were

based violence in 2007 in which 1200 were killed and 600,000

based violence in 2007 in which 1200 were killed and 600,000 forced

based violence in 2007 in which 1200 were killed and 600,000 forced to

were killed and 600,000 forced to flee

were killed and 600,000 forced to flee their homes. They say they

flee their homes. They say they are flee their homes. They say they

flee their homes. They say they are not guilty.

flee their homes. They say they are Kenya

flee their homes. They say they are Kenya is

not guilty. Kenya is

not guilty. Kenya is threatening to

not guilty. Kenya is threatening to withdraw

Kenya is threatening to withdraw from

Kenya is threatening to withdraw from the ICC,

Kenya is threatening to withdraw from the ICC, but how much

Kenya is threatening to withdraw from the ICC, but how much damage

from the ICC, but how much damage would

from the ICC, but how much damage would that do to

from the ICC, but how much damage would that do to its international

would that do to its international

Welcome. Thank you very

Welcome. Thank you very much.

Do you believe that the president and

Do you believe that the president and the

Do you believe that the president and the the Vice

and the the Vice President of Kenya and the the Vice

and the the Vice President of Kenya should be standing trial at the

No. Why not? They are not guilty. should be standing trial at the

No. Why not? They are not guilty. And you

No. Why not? They are not guilty. And you have decided

No. Why not? They are not guilty. And you have decided that

No. Why not? They are not guilty. And you have decided that before

And you have decided that before

And you have decided that before they have stood trial? Well, I

And you have decided that before they have stood trial? Well, I have

they have stood trial? Well, I have decided

they have stood trial? Well, I have decided that

they have stood trial? Well, I have decided that because

they have stood trial? Well, I have decided that because the

they have stood trial? Well, I have decided that because the part

they have stood trial? Well, I have decided that because the part of

decided that because the part of

decided that because the part of evidence that has been

decided that because the part of evidence that has been used in

decided that because the part of evidence that has been used in the

evidence that has been used in the Kenyan

evidence that has been used in the Kenyan cases is

evidence that has been used in the Kenyan cases is the

evidence that has been used in the Kenyan cases is the same

evidence that has been used in the Kenyan cases is the same for

evidence that has been used in the Kenyan cases is the same for the

evidence that has been used in the Kenyan cases is the same for the six

Kenyan cases is the same for the six suspects

Kenyan cases is the same for the six suspects that were

Kenyan cases is the same for the six suspects that were before

Kenyan cases is the same for the six suspects that were before the

Kenyan cases is the same for the six suspects that were before the court

suspects that were before the court in

suspects that were before the court in the

suspects that were before the court in the beginning. Three

suspects that were before the court in the beginning. Three of them

suspects that were before the court been

in the beginning. Three of them has been

in the beginning. Three of them has been dismissed. Three

in the beginning. Three of them has been dismissed. Three of

in the beginning. Three of them has been dismissed. Three of the

in the beginning. Three of them has been dismissed. Three of the cases

been dismissed. Three of the cases have

been dismissed. Three of the cases have been dismissed. There

been dismissed. Three of the cases have been dismissed. There is

been dismissed. Three of the cases nothing

have been dismissed. There is nothing

have been dismissed. There is nothing additional that happened

nothing additional that happened

nothing additional that happened that could have

nothing additional that happened that could have led

nothing additional that happened that could have led to

nothing additional that happened that could have led to the

that could have led to the

that could have led to the president, the

that could have led to the president, the and

that could have led to the president, the and the

president, the and the deputy president, the and the

president, the and the deputy president being

president, the and the deputy president being in

president, the and the deputy president being in court today.

president, the and the deputy president being in court today. And

president being in court today. And we

president being in court today. And we have

president being in court today. And we have a

president being in court today. And we have a radio

president being in court today. And we have a radio presenter

president being in court today. And we have a radio presenter also

we have a radio presenter also

we have a radio presenter also standing trial.

we have a radio presenter also standing trial. The three

we have a radio presenter also standing trial. The three that

we have a radio presenter also standing trial. The three that are

standing trial. The three that are left.

standing trial. The three that are The

standing trial. The three that are The it

left. The it

left. The it chief

left. The it chief prosecutor of

left. The it chief prosecutor of the

The it chief prosecutor of the International

The it chief prosecutor of the International Criminal

The it chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court

The it chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court says

The it chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court says of

International Criminal Court says of William

International Criminal Court says of William Rooto,

International Criminal Court says of William Rooto, he

International Criminal Court says of William Rooto, he is

International Criminal Court says of William Rooto, he is a

International Criminal Court says of William Rooto, he is a power

William Rooto, he is a power

William Rooto, he is a power powerful politician

William Rooto, he is a power powerful politician who planned

William Rooto, he is a power powerful politician who planned the

William Rooto, he is a power crimes

William Rooto, he is a power crimes to

powerful politician who planned the crimes to

powerful politician who planned the crimes to satisfy his power.

powerful politician who planned the crimes to satisfy his power. When

powerful politician who planned the crimes to satisfy his power. When he

crimes to satisfy his power. When he lost

crimes to satisfy his power. When he lost the election

crimes to satisfy his power. When he lost the election he

crimes to satisfy his power. When he lost the election he gave the order

lost the election he gave the order

lost the election he gave the order to attack. That's categorical?

lost the election he gave the order to attack. That's categorical? Well,

to attack. That's categorical? Well, he

to attack. That's categorical? Well, he was

to attack. That's categorical? Well, he was not

to attack. That's categorical? Well, he was not standing

to attack. That's categorical? Well, he was not standing for

to attack. That's categorical? Well, he was not standing for president

to attack. That's categorical? Well, he was not standing for president of

he was not standing for president of the

he was not standing for president of the republic.

the republic.

the republic. He was

the republic. He was contesting

the republic. He was contesting elections

the republic. He was contesting elections in

He was contesting elections in 2007. He was contesting elections in

He was contesting elections in 2007. As a

He was contesting elections in 2007. As a member

He was contesting elections in 2007. As a member of

He was contesting elections in 2007. As a member of Parliament and he

As a member of Parliament and he

As a member of Parliament and he will win

As a member of Parliament and he will win that

As a member of Parliament and he will win that any

As a member of Parliament and he will win that any time

As a member of Parliament and he will win that any time of

As a member of Parliament and he will win that any time of the

As a member of Parliament and he will win that any time of the day

will win that any time of the day

will win that any time of the day because he is a

will win that any time of the day because he is a popular politician.

because he is a popular politician.

because he is a popular politician. I wasn't asking whether he was

because he is a popular politician. I wasn't asking whether he was going

I wasn't asking whether he was going

I wasn't asking whether he was going to win the

I wasn't asking whether he was going to win the election?

I wasn't asking whether he was going to win the election? He didn't

I wasn't asking whether he was going to win the election? He didn't lose

to win the election? He didn't lose

to win the election? He didn't lose the elections. He

to win the election? He didn't lose the elections. He didn't

to win the election? He didn't lose the elections. He didn't lose the

the elections. He didn't lose the

the elections. He didn't lose the No

elections. No

elections. No he was

elections. No he was I

elections. No he was I can back backing ——

elections. No he was I can back backing —— no,

elections. he

elections. he was

he was backing someone else at the time. He

he was backing someone else at the time. He gave the order to attack?

time. He gave the order to attack? He

time. He gave the order to attack? prosecution says. That's

time. He gave the order to attack? prosecution says. That's what

He didn't. That's what the prosecution says. That's what the

prosecution says. That's what the prosecution says, but I

prosecution says, but I will tell you, from

prosecution says, but I will tell you, from 2008, to

prosecution says, but I will tell you, from 2008, to date,

prosecution says, but I will tell you, from 2008, to date, William has

you, from 2008, to date, William has

you, from 2008, to date, William has been on a campaign of reconciling

been on a campaign of reconciling

been on a campaign of reconciling the different

been on a campaign of reconciling the different Kenyan

been on a campaign of reconciling the different Kenyan ethnic

been on a campaign of reconciling the different Kenyan ethnic groups.

the different Kenyan ethnic groups.

the different Kenyan ethnic groups. He has done that

the different Kenyan ethnic groups. He has done that redentlessly and

He has done that redentlessly and

He has done that redentlessly and couragiously, whether

He has done that redentlessly and couragiously, whether it

He has done that redentlessly and couragiously, whether it was those

couragiously, whether it was those

couragiously, whether it was those that were affected

couragiously, whether it was those that were affected by

couragiously, whether it was those that were affected by the activities

that were affected by the activities that went on in 2007 and 2008 or

that went on in 2007 and 2008 or those

that went on in 2007 and 2008 or those that

those that weren't. He made sure those that

those that weren't. He made sure that the Kenyan communities

those that weren't. He made sure that the Kenyan communities came

that the Kenyan communities came

that the Kenyan communities came together. He together with

that the Kenyan communities came together. He together with our

together. He together with our

together. He together with our current president, right, have

together. He together with our current president, right, have so

current president, right, have so much

current president, right, have so much could have

current president, right, have so much could have dense

current president, right, have so much could have dense of the

much could have dense of the

much could have dense of the electorate that they won

much could have dense of the electorate that they won the

much could have dense of the electorate that they won the next

electorate that they won the next

electorate that they won the next general election.

electorate that they won the next general election. That

electorate that they won the next general election. That maybe

electorate that they won the next general election. That maybe true

general election. That maybe true that

general election. That maybe true that they are

that they are working for that they are

that they are working for reconciliation. They

that they are working for reconciliation. They have

that they are working for reconciliation. They have been,

reconciliation. They have been, but reconciliation. They have been,

reconciliation. They have been, but the point

reconciliation. They have been, but the point I was putting

reconciliation. They have been, but the point I was putting to you

reconciliation. They have been, but the point I was putting to you is

the point I was putting to you is this

the point I was putting to you is this —

the point I was putting to you is this — my

the point I was putting to you is this — my original

the point I was putting to you is this — my original question

the point I was putting to you is this — my original question was

the point I was putting to you is you

this — my original question was do you

this — my original question was do you think they

this — my original question was do you think they should be standing

you think they should be standing trial

you think they should be standing trial and

you think they should be standing trial and you

you think they should be standing trial and you say

you think they should be standing trial and you say no, ter they

you think they should be standing trial and you say no, ter they are

trial and you say no, ter they are

trial and you say no, ter they are not guilty

trial and you say no, ter they are not guilty —— they

trial and you say no, ter they are not guilty —— they are not

trial and you say no, ter they are not guilty —— they are not guilty.

not guilty —— they are not guilty.

not guilty —— they are not guilty. Why do you think they shouldn't

not guilty —— they are not guilty. Why do you think they shouldn't be?

not guilty —— they are not guilty. Why

Why do you think they shouldn't be? Why

Why do you think they shouldn't be? Why is the ICC taking

Why do you think they shouldn't be? Why is the ICC taking a

Why do you think they shouldn't be? Why is the ICC taking a this

Why do you think they shouldn't be? Why is the ICC taking a this case

Why is the ICC taking a this case against

Why is the ICC taking a this case against them?

Why is the ICC taking a this case against them? It

Why is the ICC taking a this case against them? It wasn't

Why is the ICC taking a this case against them? It wasn't the

Why is the ICC taking a this case against them? It wasn't the ICC

Why is the ICC taking a this case against them? It wasn't the ICC that

against them? It wasn't the ICC that

against them? It wasn't the ICC that brought the case

against them? It wasn't the ICC that brought the case against

against them? It wasn't the ICC that brought the case against them

brought the case against them

brought the case against them initially... Can I just get

brought the case against them initially... Can I just get you

brought the case against them that.

initially... Can I just get you on that.

initially... Can I just get you on that. You said

initially... Can I just get you on that. You said it

initially... Can I just get you on that. You said it wasn't the ICC

initially... Can I just get you on that. You said it wasn't the ICC who

that. You said it wasn't the ICC who

that. You said it wasn't the ICC who brought the

that. You said it wasn't the ICC who brought the case.

that. You said it wasn't the ICC who brought the case. South Africa,

brought the case. South Africa,

brought the case. South Africa, Ireland, atrocities

brought the case. South Africa, Ireland, atrocities committed.

brought the case. South Africa, Ireland, atrocities committed. The

Ireland, atrocities committed. The people

Ireland, atrocities committed. The people came together.

Ireland, atrocities committed. The people came together. They

Ireland, atrocities committed. The people came together. They had

Ireland, atrocities committed. The people came together. They had a

people came together. They had a truth

people came together. They had a truth a rek con

people came together. They had a Reconciliation

truth a rek con Truth and Reconciliation

truth a rek con Truth and Reconciliation Commission that

truth a rek con Truth and Reconciliation Commission that had

Reconciliation Commission that had

Reconciliation Commission that had nothing to do

Reconciliation Commission that had nothing to do with

Reconciliation Commission that had nothing to do with justice. People

nothing to do with justice. People

nothing to do with justice. People sat around the

nothing to do with justice. People sat around the table

nothing to do with justice. People sat around the table and concluded

sat around the table and concluded those

sat around the table and concluded those issues

sat around the table and concluded those issues because

sat around the table and concluded those issues because countries

sat around the table and concluded those issues because countries must

those issues because countries must move

move forward. move

move forward. When the commission was set—up,

move forward. When the commission was set—up, cove

move forward. Kofi

When the commission was set—up, cove Kofi

Kofi Annan was leading Kofi

Kofi Annan was leading reconciliation. The commission

Kofi Annan was leading reconciliation. The commission said

reconciliation. The commission said that

reconciliation. The commission said that Kenya to

reconciliation. The commission said that Kenya to set—up a tribunal

reconciliation. The commission said that Kenya to set—up a tribunal to

that Kenya to set—up a tribunal to

that Kenya to set—up a tribunal to see who was

that Kenya to set—up a tribunal to see who was responsible

that Kenya to set—up a tribunal to see who was responsible for

that Kenya to set—up a tribunal to see who was responsible for the

see who was responsible for the 1200 see who was responsible for the

see who was responsible for the 1200 people that

see who was responsible for the 1200 people that died in

see who was responsible for the 1200 people that died in very, very

people that died in very, very brutal

people that died in very, very brutal circumstances.

people that died in very, very brutal circumstances. 600,000 forced

brutal circumstances. 600,000 forced to

brutal circumstances. 600,000 forced to flee their

brutal circumstances. 600,000 forced to flee their homes.

brutal circumstances. 600,000 forced to flee their homes. That commission

to flee their homes. That commission

said if you don't set—up a tribunal and do it properly

said if you don't set—up a tribunal and do it properly it

said if you don't set—up a tribunal and do it properly it will

said if you don't set—up a tribunal and do it properly it will have

and do it properly it will have to and do it properly it will have

go to the ICC and Kofi Annan said the

go to the ICC and Kofi Annan said the ICC

go to the ICC and Kofi Annan said the ICC was a court seen as the

go to the ICC and Kofi Annan said resort. He

go to the ICC and Kofi Annan said resort. He said there be no

go to the ICC and Kofi Annan said resort. He said there be no doubt

resort. He said there be no doubt that the failures paved

resort. He said there be no doubt that the failures paved the

resort. He said there be no doubt that the failures paved the way

that the failures paved the way to the ICC? You know societies and

the ICC? You know societies and communities are dynamic. What

the ICC? You know societies and communities are dynamic. What was

true in 2007 is definitely not true of my country today. We

constitution that was formed in of my country today. We

constitution that was formed in 2010. It provides

constitution that was formed in 2010. It provides for

constitution that was formed in 2010. It provides for a reformed

2010. It provides for a reformed judiciary

2010. It provides for a reformed judiciary and

2010. It provides for a reformed judiciary and judicial

2010. It provides for a reformed judiciary and judicial process.

2010. It provides for a reformed judiciary and judicial process. We

2010. It provides for a reformed have

2010. It provides for a reformed have had

2010. It provides for a reformed have had cases

judiciary and judicial process. We have had cases

judiciary and judicial process. We have had cases before our courts

have had cases before our courts that

have had cases before our courts that had

have had cases before our courts that had the

have had cases before our courts that had the confidence of the

that had the confidence of the people.

that had the confidence of the people. What

that had the confidence of the people. What was

that had the confidence of the people. What was happening in

that had the confidence of the people. What was happening in 2007

that had the confidence of the is

people. What was happening in 2007 is

people. What was happening in 2007 is not happening today.

people. What was happening in 2007 If

people. What was happening in 2007 If there

people. What was happening in 2007 If there was

people. What was happening in 2007 If there was action

people. What was happening in 2007 If there was action on

people. What was happening in 2007 If there was action on this

is not happening today. If there was action on this point

is not happening today. If there was action on this point of

If there was action on this point of trying

If there was action on this point of trying to

If there was action on this point of trying to bring together justice,

If there was action on this point of trying to bring together justice, if

trying to bring together justice, if

trying to bring together justice, if there was an action it would go

trying to bring together justice, if there was an action it would go to

trying to bring together justice, if the

trying to bring together justice, if the ICC

trying to bring together justice, if the ICC and

trying to bring together justice, if the ICC and now

trying to bring together justice, if the ICC and now you

trying to bring together justice, if the ICC and now you are

there was an action it would go to the ICC and now you are saying

there was an action it would go to the ICC and now you are saying you

the ICC and now you are saying you

the ICC and now you are saying you have the

the ICC and now you are saying you have the right to change your

the ICC and now you are saying you have the right to change your minds?

have the right to change your minds? No,

have the right to change your minds? No, it is not

have the right to change your minds? No, it is not about changing

have the right to change your minds? No, it is not about changing minds.

No, it is not about changing minds.

No, it is not about changing minds. It is

No, it is not about changing minds. It is about

No, it is not about changing minds. It is about societies

No, it is not about changing minds. forward.

It is about societies moving forward.

It is about societies moving forward. It is about societies

forward. It is about societies

forward. It is about societies reconciling. It

forward. It is about societies reconciling. It is about

forward. It is about societies reconciling. It is about societies

reconciling. It is about societies after

reconciling. It is about societies after reconciling, electing

reconciling. It is about societies after reconciling, electing those

after reconciling, electing those

after reconciling, electing those that the

after reconciling, electing those that the international

after reconciling, electing those that the international community

after reconciling, electing those that the international community had

that the international community had put

that the international community had put at The

that the international community had put at The Hague.

that the international community had put at The Hague. It is a different

put at The Hague. It is a different set

put at The Hague. It is a different set of

put at The Hague. It is a different set of circumstances today

put at The Hague. It is a different set of circumstances today and

put at The Hague. It is a different set of circumstances today and you

set of circumstances today and you know

set of circumstances today and you know what, there

set of circumstances today and you know what, there was an

set of circumstances today and you know what, there was an envelope

know what, there was an envelope

know what, there was an envelope handed to Kofi

know what, there was an envelope handed to Kofi Annan. It did not

handed to Kofi Annan. It did not contain

handed to Kofi Annan. It did not contain six

handed to Kofi Annan. It did not contain six names.

handed to Kofi Annan. It did not contain six names. They

handed to Kofi Annan. It did not contain six names. They picked

handed to Kofi Annan. It did not contain six names. They picked and

contain six names. They picked and

contain six names. They picked and chose, it

contain six names. They picked and chose, it was

contain six names. They picked and chose, it was politicised

contain six names. They picked and chose, it was politicised from

contain six names. They picked and chose, it was politicised from the

chose, it was politicised from the beginning.

chose, it was politicised from the beginning. How

chose, it was politicised from the beginning. How can

chose, it was politicised from the beginning. How can it be true

chose, it was politicised from the beginning. How can it be true that

beginning. How can it be true that

beginning. How can it be true that they are

beginning. How can it be true that they are conducting a case right,

they are conducting a case right,

they are conducting a case right, and that

they are conducting a case right, and that they

they are conducting a case right, and that they chose six out of

they are conducting a case right, and that they chose six out of an

and that they chose six out of an envelope

and that they chose six out of an envelope of I

and that they chose six out of an envelope of I don't

and that they chose six out of an envelope of I don't know how many

envelope of I don't know how many and

and of the six, three are from one and

and of the six, three are from one side of the

and of the six, three are from one side of the politicalle divide

and of the six, three are from one side of the politicalle divide and

side of the politicalle divide and the

side of the politicalle divide and the other three

side of the politicalle divide and the other three were

side of the politicalle divide and the other three were from

side of the politicalle divide and the other three were from the

side of the politicalle divide and the other three were from the other

the other three were from the other

the other three were from the other side. If

the other three were from the other side. If that is

the other three were from the other side. If that is not

the other three were from the other side. If that is not politicising

side. If that is not politicising the

side. If that is not politicising the case, tell me what

side. If that is not politicising the case, tell me what is.

side. If that is not politicising the case, tell me what is. If

side. If that is not politicising the case, tell me what is. If they

the case, tell me what is. If they had

the case, tell me what is. If they had stood

the case, tell me what is. If they had stood up

the case, tell me what is. If they had stood up and said, " Listen,

had stood up and said, " Listen,

had stood up and said, " Listen, atrocities were

atrocities were committed. One or atrocities were

atrocities were committed. One or two people

two people are responsible. And it two people

two people are responsible. And it wouldn't have

wouldn't have mattered from one side wouldn't have

of the political divide they were, right? Then

of the political divide they were, right? Then it

right? Then it would have been right? Then it

right? Then it would have been easier for people to

easier for people to say, this is easier for people to

easier for people to say, this is fair. This is objective.

easier for people to say, this is fair. This is objective. This

fair. This is objective. This is right.

fair. This is objective. This is right. This

fair. This is objective. This is right. This is a search for

fair. This is objective. This is right. This is a search for justice.

right. This is a search for justice. So

right. This is a search for justice. So your

right. This is a search for justice. So your Government's

right. This is a search for justice. So your Government's position

right. This is a search for justice. So your Government's position is

So your Government's position is

So your Government's position is saying the chief prosecutor

So your Government's position is saying the chief prosecutor of

So your Government's position is saying the chief prosecutor of the

saying the chief prosecutor of the

saying the chief prosecutor of the ICC does not really

saying the chief prosecutor of the ICC does not really want to take

ICC does not really want to take this

ICC does not really want to take this trial... No, I am not saying

this trial... No, I am not saying

this trial... No, I am not saying that. But she is. Well, you know

that. But she is. Well, you know

that. But she is. Well, you know what... She has given

that. But she is. Well, you know what... She has given interviews.

that. But she is. Well, you know is woulderied about reluctance

that. But she is. Well, you know is woulderied about reluctance of

is woulderied about reluctance of

is woulderied about reluctance of witnesses to ——

is woulderied about reluctance of witnesses to —— she is worried

is woulderied about reluctance of witnesses to —— she is worried about

witnesses to —— she is worried about

witnesses to —— she is worried about reluctance of

witnesses to —— she is worried about reluctance of witnesses.

reluctance of witnesses.

reluctance of witnesses. She dragged my

reluctance of witnesses. She dragged my deputy president.

She dragged my deputy president. You She dragged my deputy president.

She dragged my deputy president. You know what,

She dragged my deputy president. You know what, the witnesses

She dragged my deputy president. You know what, the witnesses haven't

know what, the witnesses haven't

know what, the witnesses haven't been able to travel, go

know what, the witnesses haven't been able to travel, go away

know what, the witnesses haven't been able to travel, go away Deputy

been able to travel, go away Deputy

been able to travel, go away Deputy Prime Minister,

been able to travel, go away Deputy Prime Minister, come back next

been able to travel, go away Deputy Prime Minister, come back next week.

Prime Minister, come back next week. Deputy

Prime Minister, come back next week. Deputy president.

Prime Minister, come back next week. Deputy president. His

Prime Minister, come back next week. Deputy president. His case was

Deputy president. His case was adjourned.

Deputy president. His case was adjourned. Of

Deputy president. His case was adjourned. Of course,

Deputy president. His case was adjourned. Of course, he is back,

adjourned. Of course, he is back,

adjourned. Of course, he is back, but how

adjourned. Of course, he is back, but how do

adjourned. Of course, he is back, but how do you do that? You have

but how do you do that? You have

but how do you do that? You have five years

but how do you do that? You have five years to prepare a

but how do you do that? You have five years to prepare a case.

but how do you do that? You have five years to prepare a case. How

but how do you do that? You have five years to prepare a case. How is

five years to prepare a case. How is

five years to prepare a case. How is it possible?

five years to prepare a case. How is it possible? A

five years to prepare a case. How is it possible? A leader who has

it possible? A leader who has

it possible? A leader who has constitutional, but he is

constitutional, but he is the... He constitutional, but he is

constitutional, but he is the... He is standing

constitutional, but he is the... He is standing trial. If you say

constitutional, but he is the... He is standing trial. If you say he

constitutional, but he is the... He is standing trial. If you say he has

is standing trial. If you say he has

is standing trial. If you say he has no case

is standing trial. If you say he has no case to answer

is standing trial. If you say he has no case to answer and

is standing trial. If you say he has no case to answer and he

is standing trial. If you say he has no case to answer and he is

is standing trial. If you say he has no case to answer and he is trying

no case to answer and he is trying trial?

no case to answer and he is trying trial? We

no case to answer and he is trying trial? We are

no case to answer and he is trying trial? We are co order

no case to answer and he is trying trial? We are co order rating with

trial? We are co order rating with

trial? We are co order rating with the court.

trial? We are co order rating with the court. We committed ourselves...

the court. We committed ourselves...

the court. We committed ourselves... Are you

the court. We committed ourselves... Are you co—operating with

the court. We committed ourselves... courts?

the court. We committed ourselves... courts? Yes.

Are you co—operating with the courts? Yes.

Are you co—operating with the courts? Yes. You don't want

Are you co—operating with the courts? Yes. You don't want to

courts? Yes. You don't want to withdraw.

courts? Yes. You don't want to withdraw. First step in making

courts? Yes. You don't want to withdraw. First step in making Kenya

withdraw. First step in making Kenya

withdraw. First step in making Kenya withdraw? The

withdraw? The motion was passed. I withdraw? The

withdraw? The motion was passed. I foresee that they would repeal

withdraw? The motion was passed. I foresee that they would repeal our

foresee that they would repeal our Act

foresee that they would repeal our Act first of

foresee that they would repeal our Act first of all,

foresee that they would repeal our Act first of all, the and

foresee that they would repeal our Act first of all, the and the next

Act first of all, the and the next

Act first of all, the and the next step will be withdrawal, right,

Act first of all, the and the next step will be withdrawal, right, but

step will be withdrawal, right, but

step will be withdrawal, right, but we have

step will be withdrawal, right, but we have been there

step will be withdrawal, right, but we have been there before.

step will be withdrawal, right, but we have been there before. It

step will be withdrawal, right, but we have been there before. It is

step will be withdrawal, right, but we have been there before. It is not

we have been there before. It is not the

we have been there before. It is not the first

we have been there before. It is not the first time

we have been there before. It is not the first time that the Parliament

the first time that the Parliament

the first time that the Parliament that is

that is passed that motion. that is

that is passed that motion. You know

that is passed that motion. You know that

that is passed that motion. You know that motion

that is passed that motion. You know that motion was

that is passed that motion. You know that motion was called

that is passed that motion. You know that motion was called by

that is passed that motion. opponents

You know that motion was called by opponents

You know that motion was called by opponents of

You know that motion was called by opponents of the president...

You know that motion was called by opponents of the president... It

You know that motion was called by opponents of the president... It is

opponents of the president... It is

opponents of the president... It is an independent institution.

opponents of the president... It is an independent institution. It

opponents of the president... It is an independent institution. It is

opponents of the president... It is an independent institution. It is a

an independent institution. It is a democratic

an independent institution. It is a democratic institution. It

an independent institution. It is a democratic institution. It is

an independent institution. It is a democratic institution. It is a

democratic institution. It is a Parliament.

democratic institution. It is a Parliament. Parliaments

democratic institution. It is a Parliament. Parliaments debate

Parliament. Parliaments debate

Parliament. Parliaments debate issues. Parliaments,

Parliament. Parliaments debate issues. Parliaments, you

issues. Parliaments, you know, Parliamentarians can walk—out

issues. Parliaments, you know, Parliamentarians can walk—out of

issues. Parliaments, you know, Parliamentarians can walk—out of a

Parliamentarians can walk—out of a debate...

Parliamentarians can walk—out of a debate... Which they did do? Which

debate... Which they did do? Which

debate... Which they did do? Which they did do. You are saying that

they did do. You are saying that

they did do. You are saying that ICC?

they did do. You are saying that ICC? The Parliament has passed

they did do. You are saying that ICC? The Parliament has passed a

ICC? The Parliament has passed a

ICC? The Parliament has passed a motion. The Government has... You

motion. The Government has... You are

motion. The Government has... You are one of 34

motion. The Government has... You are one of 34 African

motion. The Government has... You are one of 34 African countries

are one of 34 African countries that are one of 34 African countries

are one of 34 African countries that signed up to the I csmt CC, what are

signed up to the I csmt CC, what are the

the implications for other African the

countries? Well, I think if there is a feeling that the space that we

to co—operate with the court, right, is

to co—operate with the court, right, is shrinking and that

to co—operate with the court, right, is shrinking and that it becomes

is shrinking and that it becomes difficult

is shrinking and that it becomes difficult for other countries to

difficult for other countries to even

difficult for other countries to even think

difficult for other countries to even think of

difficult for other countries to even think of themselves

difficult for other countries to even think of themselves in the

difficult for other countries to even think of themselves in the same

difficult for other countries to situation

even think of themselves in the same situation

even think of themselves in the same situation sob have

even think of themselves in the same situation sob have you

even think of themselves in the same situation sob have you saidly

even think of themselves in the same situation sob have you saidly they

situation sob have you saidly they

situation sob have you saidly they need to make ——

situation sob have you saidly they need to make —— obviously

situation sob have you saidly they need to make —— obviously they

situation sob have you saidly they need to make —— obviously they need

need to make —— obviously they need to

need to make —— obviously they need to make their

need to make —— obviously they need to make their own call

need to make —— obviously they need to make their own call and

need to make —— obviously they need to make their own call and draw

to make their own call and draw their

to make their own call and draw their own

to make their own call and draw their own conclusions.

to make their own call and draw You

to make their own call and draw You have

their own conclusions. You have

their own conclusions. You have been sper heading

their own conclusions. You have been sper heading efforts

You have been sper heading efforts and

You have been sper heading efforts and lobbying,

You have been sper heading efforts and lobbying, you

You have been sper heading efforts and lobbying, you have

You have been sper heading efforts and lobbying, you have been

You have been sper heading efforts and lobbying, you have been to

You have been sper heading efforts and lobbying, you have been to say,

and lobbying, you have been to say,

and lobbying, you have been to say, we want the

and lobbying, you have been to say, we want the AU

and lobbying, you have been to say, we want the AU to

and lobbying, you have been to say, we want the AU to say that the

and lobbying, you have been to say, we want the AU to say that the ICC

we want the AU to say that the ICC

we want the AU to say that the ICC is doing is not correct. There

we want the AU to say that the ICC is doing is not correct. There will

is doing is not correct. There will

is doing is not correct. There will be a meeting

is doing is not correct. There will be a meeting in

is doing is not correct. There will be a meeting in October

is doing is not correct. There will be a meeting in October to

is doing is not correct. There will be a meeting in October to discuss

be a meeting in October to discuss

be a meeting in October to discuss the African Union's

be a meeting in October to discuss the African Union's relationship

the African Union's relationship with

the African Union's relationship with the

the African Union's relationship with the ICC? I

the African Union's relationship with the ICC? I think

the African Union's relationship with the ICC? I think one

the African Union's relationship with the ICC? I think one should

with the ICC? I think one should always

with the ICC? I think one should always look

with the ICC? I think one should always look at

with the ICC? I think one should always look at their relationships.

always look at their relationships. I

always look at their relationships. I think that's important to do

I think that's important to do because

I think that's important to do because as

I think that's important to do because as of today the only

I think that's important to do because as of today the only one

because as of today the only one standing

because as of today the only one standing trial at

because as of today the only one standing trial at The Hague are

standing trial at The Hague are Africans.

standing trial at The Hague are Africans. So why

standing trial at The Hague are Africans. So why shouldn't Africa

Africans. So why shouldn't Africa

Africans. So why shouldn't Africa examine its relationship with

Africans. So why shouldn't Africa examine its relationship with the

examine its relationship with the ICC?

examine its relationship with the ICC? After all...

examine its relationship with the ICC? After all... You say Africans,

ICC? After all... You say Africans,

ICC? After all... You say Africans, four out

ICC? After all... You say Africans, four out of the eight

ICC? After all... You say Africans, four out of the eight cases referred

four out of the eight cases referred

four out of the eight cases referred to the ICC, fourth

four out of the eight cases referred to the ICC, fourth out of

four out of the eight cases referred to the ICC, fourth out of the

four out of the eight cases referred to the ICC, fourth out of the eight

to the ICC, fourth out of the eight cases

to the ICC, fourth out of the eight cases were

to the ICC, fourth out of the eight cases were originated

to the ICC, fourth out of the eight cases were originated by

cases were originated by the cases were originated by

cases were originated by the Government themselves and other

cases were originated by the Government themselves and other two

cases were originated by the were

Government themselves and other two were

Government themselves and other two were Saptioned by

Government themselves and other two were Saptioned by the Government

Government themselves and other two were Saptioned by the Government so

were Saptioned by the Government so the

were Saptioned by the Government so the majority

were Saptioned by the Government so the majority of

were Saptioned by the Government so the majority of cases are

were Saptioned by the Government so the majority of cases are originated

the majority of cases are originated by

the majority of cases are originated by governments. How

the majority of cases are originated by governments. How does

the majority of cases are originated by governments. How does that

the majority of cases are originated by governments. How does that mean

by governments. How does that mean you

by governments. How does that mean you should not examine

by governments. How does that mean you should not examine your

by governments. How does that mean relationship?

you should not examine your relationship?

you should not examine your relationship? It is

you should not examine your relationship? It is more than than

relationship? It is more than than

relationship? It is more than than just examining

relationship? It is more than than just examining the

relationship? It is more than than just examining the relationship.

just examining the relationship.

just examining the relationship. Anybody lobbied anybody

just examining the relationship. Anybody lobbied anybody to do

just examining the relationship. anything.

just examining the relationship. anything. We

just examining the relationship. anything. We had

just examining the relationship. anything. We had a

Anybody lobbied anybody to do anything. We had a resolution,

Anybody lobbied anybody to do anything. We had a resolution, a

anything. We had a resolution, a decision

anything. We had a resolution, a decision made by the EU Summit

anything. We had a resolution, a decision made by the EU Summit in

decision made by the EU Summit in July

decision made by the EU Summit in July of

decision made by the EU Summit in July of this

decision made by the EU Summit in July of this year.

July of this year. There was another July of this year.

July of this year. There was another decision made in January of this

decision made in January of this year,

decision made in January of this year, OK? You cannot just have

year, OK? You cannot just have decisions and not implement them.

decisions and not implement them. You cannot have decisions

decisions and not implement them. You cannot have decisions as

You cannot have decisions as look at whether

You cannot have decisions as look at whether the

You cannot have decisions as look at The

You cannot have decisions as look at The African

You cannot have decisions as look at The African Union

implemented or not. The African Union

implemented or not. The African Union and the

implemented or not. The African Union and the African

The African Union and the African

The African Union and the African Prime Minister

The African Union and the African Prime Minister and they

The African Union and the African Prime Minister and they all said

Prime Minister and they all said

Prime Minister and they all said this is

Prime Minister and they all said this is not

Prime Minister and they all said this is not a good

Prime Minister and they all said this is not a good situation

Prime Minister and they all said this is not a good situation that

this is not a good situation that

this is not a good situation that you have

this is not a good situation that you have the

this is not a good situation that you have the ICC cases

this is not a good situation that you have the ICC cases which

this is not a good situation that you have the ICC cases which are

this is not a good situation that you have the ICC cases which are all

you have the ICC cases which are all

you have the ICC cases which are all African. The Tanzanian

you have the ICC cases which are all African. The Tanzanian Government

African. The Tanzanian Government

African. The Tanzanian Government spokesperson has said

African. The Tanzanian Government spokesperson has said just

African. The Tanzanian Government spokesperson has said just now

African. The Tanzanian Government spokesperson has said just now there

spokesperson has said just now there is

spokesperson has said just now there is a proposal

coming in January for all African is a proposal

coming in January for all African Union countries to withdraw from the

Union countries to withdraw from the ICC

ICC because the court is seen to be targeting African leaders. That

ICC because the court is seen to be targeting African leaders. That was

targeting African leaders. That was

targeting African leaders. That was last January.

targeting African leaders. That was last January. I

targeting African leaders. That was last January. I can't speak for

last January. I can't speak for Tanzania.

last January. I can't speak for Tanzania. It is more than you

last January. I can't speak for Tanzania. It is more than you saying

Tanzania. It is more than you saying

Tanzania. It is more than you saying it is

Tanzania. It is more than you saying it is not

Tanzania. It is more than you saying it is not right that

Tanzania. It is more than you saying it is not right that the

Tanzania. It is more than you saying it is not right that the president

it is not right that the president and

it is not right that the president and the

it is not right that the president and the Vice—President are

it is not right that the president and the Vice—President are at

it is not right that the president and the Vice—President are at the

and the Vice—President are at the ICC,

and the Vice—President are at the ICC, you

and the Vice—President are at the ICC, you are

and the Vice—President are at the ICC, you are trying to get

and the Vice—President are at the ICC, you are trying to get the

ICC, you are trying to get the

ICC, you are trying to get the African unions We

ICC, you are trying to get the African unions We are not trying

ICC, you are trying to get the African unions We are not trying to

African unions We are not trying to

African unions We are not trying to get anybody behind us.

African unions We are not trying to discussion

African unions We are not trying to discussion is

African unions We are not trying to discussion is about

get anybody behind us. The discussion is about

get anybody behind us. The discussion is about the relationship

discussion is about the relationship of

discussion is about the relationship of Africa with

discussion is about the relationship of Africa with the ICC.

discussion is about the relationship of Africa with the ICC. It

discussion is about the relationship of Africa with the ICC. It is a

of Africa with the ICC. It is a relationship

of Africa with the ICC. It is a relationship that must

of Africa with the ICC. It is a relationship that must take place.

relationship that must take place.

relationship that must take place. It has

relationship that must take place. It has to

relationship that must take place. It has to take

relationship that must take place. It has to take place. We

relationship that must take place. It has to take place. We must

relationship that must take place. examine

It has to take place. We must examine

It has to take place. We must examine the relationship.

It has to take place. We must examine the relationship. We

It has to take place. We must examine the relationship. We are

It has to take place. We must examine the relationship. We are the

examine the relationship. We are the

examine the relationship. We are the largest constituency, yeah, party

examine the relationship. We are the largest constituency, yeah, party to

largest constituency, yeah, party to the

largest constituency, yeah, party to the Rome

largest constituency, yeah, party to the Rome statute.

largest constituency, yeah, party to the Rome statute. We have made

the Rome statute. We have made

the Rome statute. We have made several requests

the Rome statute. We have made several requests to

the Rome statute. We have made several requests to the Security

several requests to the Security Council,

several requests to the Security Council, to

several requests to the Security Council, to the

several requests to the Security Council, to the court,

several requests to the Security Council, to the court, to others

several requests to the Security Council, to the court, to others on

Council, to the court, to others on

Council, to the court, to others on issues before the

Council, to the court, to others on issues before the ICC

Council, to the court, to others on issues before the ICC thinking

Council, to the court, to others on issues before the ICC thinking and

issues before the ICC thinking and

issues before the ICC thinking and hopings that other

issues before the ICC thinking and hopings that other State parties

hopings that other State parties would

hopings that other State parties would actually

hopings that other State parties would actually look

hopings that other State parties would actually look at

hopings that other State parties would actually look at the

hopings that other State parties would actually look at the request

would actually look at the request

would actually look at the request we are

would actually look at the request we are making and at

would actually look at the request we are making and at least

would actually look at the request we are making and at least respond

we are making and at least respond

we are making and at least respond to us,

we are making and at least respond to us, right? And

we are making and at least respond to us, right? And for a long

we are making and at least respond to us, right? And for a long time

to us, right? And for a long time there

to us, right? And for a long time there is no response and only

to us, right? And for a long time there is no response and only when

there is no response and only when Africa

there is no response and only when Africa starts getting together

there is no response and only when Africa starts getting together is

Africa starts getting together is

Africa starts getting together is when we

Africa starts getting together is when we get very

Africa starts getting together is when we get very hurried responses

when we get very hurried responses

when we get very hurried responses given to

when we get very hurried responses given to us.

when we get very hurried responses given to us. You

when we get very hurried responses given to us. You know,

when we get very hurried responses given to us. You know, so

when we get very hurried responses given to us. You know, so it

when we get very hurried responses given to us. You know, so it has

when we get very hurried responses given to us. You know, so it has to

given to us. You know, so it has to

given to us. You know, so it has to be a relationship of partnership.

given to us. You know, so it has to be a relationship of partnership. It

be a relationship of partnership. It has

be a relationship of partnership. It has to be a

be a relationship of partnership. It has to be a relationship... All

has to be a relationship... All African

has to be a relationship... All African countries...

has to be a relationship... All African countries... Af Africans

has to be a relationship... All African countries... Af Africans are

African countries... Af Africans are

African countries... Af Africans are junior partners.

junior partners.

junior partners. The minister said

junior partners. The minister said the ICC

junior partners. The minister said the ICC is guilty

The minister said the ICC is guilty

The minister said the ICC is guilty of applying

The minister said the ICC is guilty policy,

The minister said the ICC is guilty policy, I

of applying a double standard policy, I

of applying a double standard policy, I am asking whether

of applying a double standard policy, I am asking whether you

policy, I am asking whether you agree

agree with what he said last year, the

agree with what he said last year, the ICC

agree with what he said last year, the ICC is

agree with what he said last year, the ICC is guilty

agree with what he said last year, the ICC is guilty of applying

agree with what he said last year, the ICC is guilty of applying a

the ICC is guilty of applying a double

the ICC is guilty of applying a double standard

the ICC is guilty of applying a double standard policy which pushed

double standard policy which pushed

double standard policy which pushed the African

double standard policy which pushed the African countries

double standard policy which pushed the African countries to consider

the African countries to consider withdrawing

the African countries to consider withdrawing from

the African countries to consider withdrawing from The

the African countries to consider withdrawing from The Hague

the African countries to consider withdrawing from The Hague based

withdrawing from The Hague based court?

withdrawing from The Hague based court? Is he

withdrawing from The Hague based court? Is he right?

withdrawing from The Hague based It

court? Is he right? It

court? Is he right? It is a

court? Is he right? It is a perception,

court? Is he right? It is a perception, it is

court? Is he right? It is a perception, it is out

court? Is he right? It is a perception, it is out there.

It is a perception, it is out there. But do you agree with it? It is

It is a perception, it is out there. perception

It is a perception, it is out there. perception that is there. But do

It is a perception, it is out there. perception that is there. But do you

perception that is there. But do you agree

perception that is there. But do you agree with

perception that is there. But do you agree with it?

perception that is there. But do you agree with it? Sometimes it can

perception that is there. But do you agree with it? Sometimes it can be

perception that is there. But do you impossible

impossible to see the truth. But do impossible

impossible to see the truth. But do you have

impossible to see the truth. But do you have any sympathy

impossible to see the truth. But do you have any sympathy with his view

you have any sympathy with his view when

when he is talking with President Kenny

Kenny after. You have got the vice Kenny

Kenny after. You have got the vice president, of the DRC. But

Kenny after. You have got the vice president, of the DRC. But are

Kenny after. You have got the vice president, of the DRC. But are you

president, of the DRC. But are you

president, of the DRC. But are you saying that

president, of the DRC. But are you saying that Africans

president, of the DRC. But are you saying that Africans should

president, of the DRC. But are you saying that Africans should just

president, of the DRC. But are you saying that Africans should just ask

saying that Africans should just ask for

saying that Africans should just ask for an exception

saying that Africans should just ask for an exception for all

saying that Africans should just ask for an exception for all these

saying that Africans should just ask for an exception for all these to

saying that Africans should just ask for an exception for all these to be

for an exception for all these to be part

for an exception for all these to be part of the

for an exception for all these to be part of the ICC system? I think

for an exception for all these to be part of the ICC system? I think if

for an exception for all these to be you

part of the ICC system? I think if you

part of the ICC system? I think if you look at

part of the ICC system? I think if you look at the

part of the ICC system? I think if you look at the requests

part of the ICC system? I think if you look at the requests that are

you look at the requests that are

you look at the requests that are there, you might not

you look at the requests that are there, you might not draw those

there, you might not draw those conclusions

there, you might not draw those conclusions that you are drawing.

conclusions that you are drawing. The

conclusions that you are drawing. The difference

conclusions that you are drawing. The difference that

conclusions that you are drawing. The difference that they

conclusions that you are drawing. The difference that they raise

The difference that they raise between

The difference that they raise between Kenya and

The difference that they raise between Kenya and Sudan, and

The difference that they raise between Kenya and Sudan, and we

The difference that they raise talked

between Kenya and Sudan, and we have talked

between Kenya and Sudan, and we have talked on behalf

between Kenya and Sudan, and we have talked on behalf of

between Kenya and Sudan, and we have talked on behalf of Sudan many

talked on behalf of Sudan many times,

talked on behalf of Sudan many times, because

talked on behalf of Sudan many times, because Sudan is

talked on behalf of Sudan many times, because Sudan is a

talked on behalf of Sudan many times, because Sudan is a key player

times, because Sudan is a key player in

times, because Sudan is a key player in ensuring that

times, because Sudan is a key player in ensuring that there

times, because Sudan is a key player in ensuring that there is

times, because Sudan is a key player in ensuring that there is peace

times, because Sudan is a key player in ensuring that there is peace in

in ensuring that there is peace in

in ensuring that there is peace in that part of Africa.

in ensuring that there is peace in that part of Africa. But Kenny

in ensuring that there is peace in that part of Africa. But Kenny is

in ensuring that there is peace in that part of Africa. But Kenny is a

that part of Africa. But Kenny is a state

that part of Africa. But Kenny is a state party to the

that part of Africa. But Kenny is a state party to the statute.

that part of Africa. But Kenny is a state party to the statute. And

that part of Africa. But Kenny is a state party to the statute. And what

that part of Africa. But Kenny is a of

state party to the statute. And what of

state party to the statute. And what of these other

state party to the statute. And what of these other countries that

state party to the statute. And what of these other countries that I

of these other countries that I mentioned?

of these other countries that I mentioned? Can Africans stand

of these other countries that I together

mentioned? Can Africans stand together

mentioned? Can Africans stand together on this issue, or

mentioned? Can Africans stand together on this issue, or are

mentioned? Can Africans stand together on this issue, or are you

together on this issue, or are you going

together on this issue, or are you going to

together on this issue, or are you going to be

together on this issue, or are you going to be cherry

together on this issue, or are you going to be cherry picking which

going to be cherry picking which countries

going to be cherry picking which countries should

going to be cherry picking which countries should remain

going to be cherry picking which countries should remain part

going to be cherry picking which countries should remain part of

going to be cherry picking which countries should remain part of the

going to be cherry picking which ICC

countries should remain part of the ICC

countries should remain part of the ICC and which shouldn't?

countries should remain part of the ICC and which shouldn't? I

countries should remain part of the ICC and which shouldn't? I think

ICC and which shouldn't? I think every

ICC and which shouldn't? I think every country commits

ICC and which shouldn't? I think every country commits itself to

every country commits itself to international

every country commits itself to international instruments. It

every country commits itself to ratifies

international instruments. It ratifies

international instruments. It ratifies and signs

international instruments. It ratifies and signs these without

ratifies and signs these without asking

ratifies and signs these without asking others

ratifies and signs these without asking others whether it

ratifies and signs these without asking others whether it should

ratifies and signs these without party

asking others whether it should be party

asking others whether it should be party or not.

asking others whether it should be party or not. We did

asking others whether it should be party or not. We did not

asking others whether it should be party or not. We did not ask for

asking others whether it should be party or not. We did not ask for the

party or not. We did not ask for the others,

party or not. We did not ask for the others, so

party or not. We did not ask for the others, so obviously

party or not. We did not ask for the others, so obviously decisions

party or not. We did not ask for the others, so obviously decisions will

others, so obviously decisions will have

others, so obviously decisions will have to be

others, so obviously decisions will have to be met

others, so obviously decisions will have to be met by

have to be met by individual have to be met by

have to be met by individual commissions.

have to be met by individual commissions. And

have to be met by individual commissions. And we weren't

have to be met by individual commissions. And we weren't just

commissions. And we weren't just

commissions. And we weren't just talking about

commissions. And we weren't just talking about the

commissions. And we weren't just talking about the ICC's

talking about the ICC's treatment of Kenya alone.

talking about the ICC's treatment of Kenya alone. There

talking about the ICC's treatment of Kenya alone. There is

talking about the ICC's treatment of Kenya alone. There is also

talking about the ICC's treatment of Kenya alone. There is also this

talking about the ICC's treatment of that

Kenya alone. There is also this fact that

Kenya alone. There is also this fact that it is

Kenya alone. There is also this fact that it is African

Kenya alone. There is also this fact that it is African leaders only

that it is African leaders only who that it is African leaders only

that it is African leaders only who have been perceived.

that it is African leaders only who have been perceived. I

that it is African leaders only who have been perceived. I am a state

have been perceived. I am a state party, and the Rome Statute

have been perceived. I am a state party, and the Rome Statute is

impartial and objective. We signed on

on to it because we actually believe in what

on to it because we actually believe in what is enshrined in

on to it because we actually believe in what is enshrined in it.

on to it because we actually believe in what is enshrined in it. We

on to it because we actually believe in what is enshrined in it. We do

in what is enshrined in it. We do not

in what is enshrined in it. We do not like the

in what is enshrined in it. We do not like the weather goalposts

in what is enshrined in it. We do not like the weather goalposts keep

not like the weather goalposts keep moving.

not like the weather goalposts keep moving. We do

not like the weather goalposts keep moving. We do not like the way

not like the weather goalposts keep moving. We do not like the way the

moving. We do not like the way the space

moving. We do not like the way the space for

moving. We do not like the way the space for cooperation

moving. We do not like the way the space for cooperation with the

moving. We do not like the way the space for cooperation with the ICC

space for cooperation with the ICC keeps

space for cooperation with the ICC keeps shrinking.

space for cooperation with the ICC keeps shrinking. That

space for cooperation with the ICC keeps shrinking. That is

space for cooperation with the ICC keeps shrinking. That is a

keeps shrinking. That is a problem that we have with it.

keeps shrinking. That is a problem that we have with it. It

keeps shrinking. That is a problem that we have with it. It is

keeps shrinking. That is a problem that we have with it. It is an

keeps shrinking. That is a problem that we have with it. It is an issue

that we have with it. It is an issue that

assembly of state parties, because that

assembly of state parties, because that is

Statute gather to discuss issues that relate to the court.

Statute gather to discuss issues that relate to the court. What

Statute gather to discuss issues that relate to the court. What do

that relate to the court. What do you

that relate to the court. What do you say to

that relate to the court. What do you say to Kofi Annan when he says

you say to Kofi Annan when he says the

you say to Kofi Annan when he says the trials are not

you say to Kofi Annan when he says the trials are not an assault

you say to Kofi Annan when he says the trials are not an assault on

the trials are not an assault on Kenyan

the trials are not an assault on Kenyan sovereignty,

the trials are not an assault on Kenyan sovereignty, but