Roger Waters - Musician HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk.

Draw up a list of the biggest bands in the history of rock and roll

and a remarkable number of them will be British.

There are The Beatles, The Rolling Stones,

and also Pink Floyd.

I speak to Roger Waters, who was a prominent figure

in the band until he quit in 1985.

He still remains one of the most controversial of rock stars.

Roger Waters, welcome to HARDtalk.

Thank you.

It has been more than 30 years since you wrote The Wall.

You are still touring it.

It was born out of pain and anger.

Do you still feel that pain and anger?

The feelings involved, I mean feelings come up as they do,

but my feelings are different over the years.

Does that make it difficult to put the show together

with the same feeling?

No.

There was a very long hiatus between the shows that happened

in 1979, 1980, and 1981 and the one in 2010.

The latest had been in production since 2009.

When I started, I thought I can only really do this if I reinvent

the show to suit who I am now.

That is, the show in 1979 was the product of an angry,

almost but not quite middle-aged man.

I had problems with relationships, women...

There was some political content but I was determined to focus more

on the politics and much less of a personal narrative.

We spent many months preparing the visuals and the way

the show would work.

I want to talk about the politics of the show in a minute but some

of those people watching here might not know the Roger Waters

story, so I want to stick with the personal for a second.

The Wall is almost like a form of memoir -

so much of it seems to be in essence about the terrible loss you suffered

as a baby.

Your father was lost in the war.

You never really knew him.

Also, you hated your school and your educational experience.

I wonder whether even though the pain has gone, whether those

experiences still shape you.

My father clearly...

I am so grateful that I carry his genes.

My father was a wonderful man.

He was only 30 when he died, when he was fighting the Nazis.

He was an extremely interesting man who died absolutely

for his principles.

He was a conscientious objector at the beginning

of the Second World War.

of the Second World War.

Then he worked as an ambulance driver through the Blitz and he then

started to do voluntary work on bomb sites, where he met my mother,

and together they became interested in politics.

They probably both joined the Communist Party either before

or around that time.

He eventually decided that his communism and the need

to defeat fascism trumped his Christianity.

He told the Commission Board he changed his mind and he wanted

to go and fight.

He did all this training and was then shot and killed.

What intrigues me is that you have such passion for him even though

you never knew him.

The fact of not knowing him...

That maybe has intensified the desire for you to do something

with your life that you believe he would have been proud of.

You are absolutely right.

On a gig, somewhere in America, we have veterans who come

at half-time to every show.

One year, there was one man who was out of the main circle

of people wanting to take pictures and get autographs.

He stopped me when I was leaving and he put his hand out.

I took his hand but he would not let go of me.

He looked me in the eyes...

It is hard for me to tell you this...

He said...

Your father would be proud of you.

That meant a lot?

It wasn't him saying it that meant it, I cannot not be moved even

at age 75 at what my father might have thought about what I do.

In retrospect, I admired him so much.

And my mother as well, I must say.

That is a very powerful personal motivation.

Let's talk about politics.

Your dad was a member of the Communist Party for a while.

You have become associated with very strong political opinion.

The Wall, the show that you are still doing,

is loaded with political commentary and political comment.

It is.

You are correct.

Perhaps the strongest reaction you have got is from people who see

some of the imagery, particularly that imagery

of the inflatable pig, which is an essential part

of the show...

Some people see it as anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic.

This has become an old chestnut.

The appearance of the pig where I am playing the part of the fascist

demagogue is satire, and it is recognised as being that.

This record has been out there with the lyrics that contain

the work which is part of the narrative for

as you say, since 1979.

The use of different symbols on the pig which I include the Star

of David, the crucifix, the dollar, the hammer and sickle,

all kinds of other symbols, are there because I felt

they were relevant when they were designed.

They have been a part of the show since 2010.

I was accused of being anti-Semitic by the ADL

which is the Anti-Defamation League.

It is an organisation in the United States.

It purports to have been set up to protect Judaism and the Jewish

people from defamation.

Hang on, let me finish.

This is very important.

I wrote back to them in 2010 when this thing started.

They sent people to see the show and they made the decision that this

was satire and it was not anti-Semitic.

I don't want to spend too long on this.

I don't either.

This is not what it is about.

The show is about my desire to break down the walls between different

people, ethnicities, nationalities...

We will definitely move on because there is more

we want to talk about.

The fact that some Jewish people who have seen the show had been

upset by it, have found it offensive, has it ever given

you pause, perhaps prompted you to think about whether you're

going to change the way you present the show?

Of course.

I think about it every day.

Of course it does. Of course it does.

You can't dismiss people's feelings.

It is with me the whole time.

But you haven't changed it.

No because...

How could I put it?

You cannot join the Ostrich Society, bury your head in the sand,

pretend the problems don't exist in the Middle East.

Elie Wiesel, the Romanian-born American writer who wrote 'Night'

says the greatest sin of all is to stand by -

to stand by, silent and indifferent.

I suggest that should be true of any act of repression or any predicament

that human beings find themselves in, irrespective of their religion

or their race or their nationality.

Let's leave politics.

I want to go back to the beginning.

I'm interested in what you just said about not believing

you are always right.

I want to go back to the creative beginning of Pink Floyd,

when you got together in the '60s and you co-founded the band.

When you look back on those years, on the way that you related

to the other members of the band, the way you talk about them,

do you think you got some things wrong in the way you handled

relationships and the band?

I don't think you are talking about the early years.

The very early years were '64, '65, '66.

We turned pro in 1967...

And then Dave joined the band and it was difficult after that.

Syd was important, he wrote most of the songs.

Basically, it was in his hands...

You have described him as a visionary.

Was it the drugs that destroyed Syd Barrett?

If it was, how close did drugs come in that era of acid and psychedelia

to actually destroying the band?

My view was that drugs and LSD were not solely responsible

for Syd's illness.

I felt at the time that Syd was drifting off the rails

and when you're drifting off the rails the worst thing

you could do is start messing around with hallucinogenics.

There's no question.

He took a lot of LSD.

I wasn't living with him at the time.

I wonder whether you, David Gilmour and others

were on the same path.

No.

I took LSD once in my life and it was amazing but both thought,

"Wow!

I don't want to go through that again." But it definitely

exacerbated the symptoms that loosely strung together

you and I might call schizophrenia.

He heard voices, he became uncommunicative.

They affect you deeply.

There really were black holes in the sky.

After his departure, you created music that will live

as long as rock and roll.

The Dark Side of the Moon is still one of the most popular

albums to download in the world.

Another interesting thing you have said is that this was,

in essence, the moment when you felt the band had achieved what it had

set out to do, what you had set out to achieve, and so from then on,

you clung together more out of fear than hope.

Right, well that is my opinion.

So was it a downward slide from that?

No.

You look at what we did together even though it ,

of course not.

As uncomfortable as it was to be in that relationship...

We were no longer four guys in the garage.

We were a real group.

Four guys driven by the ambition of making it.

With The Dark Side of the Moon, we made it.

Then those ambitions ceased to be so important.

The cracks which led to the schism in 1983 or whenever it was...

Feelings are different over the years.

That is very honest.

What kind of life was it like?

Maybe for David Gilmour, more than anybody.

How can you live side by side, work together and actually rub each

other up the wrong way, have a deteriorating relationship

and, excuse my language, p*** each other off?

Must have been a very weird life.

We did not live side-by-side.

Outside working hours, we never saw each other.

You couldn't stand the sight of each other?

It became increasingly clear, as the years went by,

we did not have much in common but we worked well.

The work we did together, in spite of the fact

that we were not blood brothers, was remarkable.

We both made contributions.

With respect, over years since, you have talked about the fact that,

you know, you felt the song writing, frankly, was more

and more being yours.

You thought they were not contributing very much.

Towards the end...

These are facts.

Towards the end, David Gilmour said certain sessions and recording

meetings, he thought there was no point in turning up

because you were so controlling.

You are such a stirrer.

I am not going there.

That is it.

I am not going any further.

We had a great career together.

It was fantastic.

I look back upon it with huge pride, you know.

With great feeling of...

It almost surprised that we managed to somehow to create

this great work.

I am not going to applaud it or blame anybody.

Sorry to interrupt.

It is so interesting.

For people around the world who know the band and know the story

of the band, the rancour that came out in 1985 and when you walked

away, the years of legal battles because you did not want

the Pink Floyd name to continue, you thought it was wrong

because you went from the band?

I did think it was wrong.

And I was wrong.

Were you?

Of course I was.

Who cares?

It was a commercial decision.

One of the few times the legal profession has taught me something.

When I went to the chaps, I said, Listen.

We're broke.

This isn't Pink Floyd anymore.

They said, what do you mean?

It is irrelevant.

It is a label and it has commercial value.

You can't say it is going to cease to exist.

You obviously don't understand English jurisprudence.

It is not about what you think but what it is.

Sorry to go on.

The law is everything that we have.

That is what The Wall was about.

It is about 1789, 1776.

The Wall is about 1948, human rights.

It is about our declaration.

I have got here.

What The Wall is all about is you.

I'm fishing for an explanation or a description of how and why

you really changed after the rancour of the mid-'80s.

I'll read out something you said.

You said, I was frightened, defensive, embarrassed,

sexually insecure.

That is why I was aggressive.

That was the old you.

After that, you found a way back to a relationship with the band.

In 2005, you played for Live Aid when Pink Floyd came together again.

So what happened?

After our schism, when David Gilmour and Nick Mason went off and played

all over the world and I was moving around with different bands that

I put together, with solo albums, it was difficult.

Nobody had any idea what it was and nobody was interested.

They knew who you were.

They didn't.

The critics at the time did not like your solo material.

That might be true as well.

The public would not respond to anything.

How was that for you?

It was very character for me.

There was a famous occasion when I was in Cincinnati

and I played in 4,000-capacity arenas and then, the next day,

the chaps were playing to a sold-out show, 70,000 people,

in a stadium.

The chaps being Pink Floyd?

Yeah.

That must have hurt.

No.

You know what?

This is character for me.

Who was it?

Young always said, I'm worried about so-and-so.

He has suffered a great success.

Not saying that Young has the answer to everything.

But I do not think there was anything wrong with a little

bit of humbling...

You talk about being wrong in terms of the legal lawsuits

against the band in the mid- '80s.

Looking back, you think there is some truth in the caricature

of you as being a control freak, domineering, just trying too much

too often to drive the band exactly where you wanted it to go?

Yes.

Yes and no.

I might be domineering.

But you either have ideas or you do not.

And if you do have ideas, you cannot be expected to sit

on them like that, just because somebody else

isn't having ideas.

So that's why it was a great thing for us to split up,

or for me to leave, if you like, so I could express my ideas

unfettered.

And my ideas are still...

I have had a few breakthroughs recently.

But I will not talk about it.

I will make the records.

I have a strong idea and I shall pursue it.

I will make at least one more record.

I'm looking forward to getting my teeth stuck into it.

I could not do that if somebody was looking over my shoulder saying,

I do not think that is good.

Well, do something yourself then.

I might need a few years before I write a song.

How frustrating has it been?

The rock industry is obsessed with reunions and reworking the past

that, I dare say, pretty much every week, since you walked out

of Pink Floyd, and despite the mini-reunion, you still

constantly get asked...

No, I don't.

People have finally realised that they are flogging a dead horse.

Do you think we really have?

Yes.

Absolutely.

People rarely bring it up with me at all.

Is there a part of you that looks at Mick Jagger

and the Rolling Stones, David Bowie, all of these...

David Bowie has not toured for years and years.

Anyway.

He has released an album.

I just wonder whether you sometimes look at that and you think,

you know what?

Pink Floyd could still produce new music.

No.

It so weird that you should be asking these questions.

Normally, you are really intelligent and you ask proper questions.

You know, about proper things.

The reasons for me leaving in 1985 would not pertain now...

30 years...

Because you changed.

But the situation has not changed.

Fundamentally, I have not changed at all.

You are right when you say I like to be in charge

of my own destiny and I like to pursue my...

Having said that, I also like to work with other people

who are creative.

It is one of the great pleasures of being...

It is not like being a painter.

Final question.

This is about you as an artist.

Your motivation.

Do you have to believe that your best work is still to come

or is there a part of you that acknowledges that the work that

will define you as an artist happened a long time ago?

That is a good question.

The third album I made on my own, Amused To Death, in my view,

never received the attention it deserved.

In your view, is it up there on the same artistic level

as The Dark Side Of The Moon or The Wall?

Yes.

And it surpasses Wish You Were Here or Animals, or any other work

that we did.

By quite a large margin.

However, to answer the question, I am as excited about what I am

going to do, when the tour has finished, as I am about either

of those works or The Dark Side Of The Moon.

I will have to end there.

Roger Waters, thank you very much.

I have enjoyed it immensely.

Thank you.

Hello.