Ahdaf Soueif - Egyptian Author and Activist HARDtalk


Ahdaf Soueif - Egyptian Author and Activist

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bitter to Sri Lanka. —— contributor. Welcome to HARDtalk. Is it time

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bitter to Sri Lanka. —— contributor. revolutionary dream? Civilians leave

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the government, but real power lies with the Armed Forces, emergency

:00:22.:00:27.

law, military courts, the outlawing of the Muslim Brotherhood. The list

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of repressive measures invites comparison with the darkest days of

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the Mubarak era. Today, political writer and activist Ahdaf Soueif.

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revolution, but is it too late? Ahdaf Soueif, welcome to HARDtalk.

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Thank you, it is good to be here. I would like to take you back to

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something you wrote at the time would like to take you back to

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Morsi government was toppled. " would like to take you back to

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write, military helicopters are circling over my house. " I said

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people, not that I want to believe. I think that the military don't

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people, not that I want to believe. to rule, at least, they don't want

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don't want to rule directly. You did interests and a specific view of

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don't want to rule directly. You did support the intervention, in the

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sense that you made it plain that you believe the Morsi government had

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become illegitimate. Do you regret that few? I think that the whole

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country, really, apart from the Muslim Brotherhood supporters,

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believe that the Morsi government had become illegitimate. And I

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believe that the country saw that we were being driven into a blank wall,

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basically. So there is no doubt were being driven into a blank wall,

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the will of the country was for were being driven into a blank wall,

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Brotherhood government to fall. You said something very interesting

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then, you said, the people apart supporters. It is not forget that

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the Muslim Brotherhood 145% of the election. They were by far the

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organised party —— 45%. Surely that gave them a mandate. They proceeded

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respect, you can't just sit on the somehow, lost all of its mandate. I

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am describing to you what the mood somehow, lost all of its mandate. I

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am describing to you what the mood of the country was and is. The fact

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is, the Muslim Brotherhood won a majority of Parliament. A clear

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President Morsi won the presidency, majority. Yes, absolutely. And

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President Morsi won the presidency, What happened after that, both after

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they won the Parliament and after they won the presidency, was that

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basically, they turned their back on they won the presidency, was that

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basically, they turned their back on the people. This is a government

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that came into place on the back of a revolution. They would not have

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been in power had it not been for the revolution. And they needed

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been in power had it not been for work with the people, they needed to

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show goodwill and good intentions, and they needed to come good on

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Doctor Morsi's promise that he would be eight president for all Egyptians

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not just for the Muslim Brotherhood. So what happened, it was what they

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Personally, I would have preferred that they continued, that it had

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Brotherhood to continue to be in power, and for President Morsi to

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continue to be in power for a bit longer. And I would have preferred

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the removal to have happened in longer. And I would have preferred

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different way. The reason I would have wanted him to continue for

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longer is that there is a quarrel, there is an argument between the

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forces of political Islam in the Muslim Brotherhood on the one hand,

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and the other forces on the other. progressive, liberal, nonreligious

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based. That argument was impossible to have while they were out of

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brotherhood and the Islamists in general were repressed, were in

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flirting with a regime and allowed to run for Parliament, they were

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underdog. So we couldn't have the argument which we proceeded to have

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sense in the nuance of your answer, argument which we proceeded to have

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sense in the nuance of your answer, and the complexity of your feeling

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about this, that you feel, maybe, revolutionaries, those who were

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about this, that you feel, maybe, Tahrir Square in January 2011, who

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were then in Tahrir Square again supporting the military as they

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toppled, and let's face it, launched a coup against the Morsi government,

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military coup, was fundamentally some of those people were misguided,

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wrong. There was nothing that anyone could do about what happened on

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wrong. There was nothing that anyone 30th of June. He 30th of June was,

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millions of them, making there will if you like, the second or the third

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millions of them, making there will no and toppling President Morsi

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millions of them, making there will they had toppled President Mubarak.

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The naivete was to say that we are revolution. In the army are part of

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us, and the army will be the vehicle revolution. If we look at Egypt

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ACC, who is effectively the leader of the Armed Forces, the idea that

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he is delivering the next phase of the Armed Forces, the idea that

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al—Sisi. I was just going to say that the will of the people is

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unstoppable. Beyond that, with the military removal of Morsi, and which

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General al—Sisi asking the people free mandate, a mandate to deal

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General al—Sisi asking the people this situation, which was chilling,

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to say the least, and which was this situation, which was chilling,

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strange because if what it was was that he needed to actually deal

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strange because if what it was was real terror, then if you are acting

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within the boundaries of the law then you don't need a mandate from

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the people. And so there was a question, and many of us expressed

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disquiet at what was this mandate for. So there was a parting of the

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ways. Is there any difference, in your view, between General al—Sisi

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and the regime he represents, and the Mubarak regime and what he

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court, the way the dissidents are represented? In terms of military

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court, the way the dissidents are request and locked up —— repressed,

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is there any difference? No, there request and locked up —— repressed,

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again? I wouldn't say that the and then taking you all the way

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again? I wouldn't say that the revolution took us all the way back

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again, I would say that there has been a protest movement in Egypt for

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have been living with waves of that revolution in January 2011. And

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revolution since then. I think that revolution since then. I think that

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what is happening now, what has happened over the last two and a

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every group that has seized power, wedge it was the military in every

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2011, or the democratically elected Brotherhood later Ron, or what is

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happening now is actually the old regime shedding one layout, or one

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phase, at adopting another one in policies and the same viruses. You

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have just launched this new movement with other like—minded campaigners,

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you have launched this movement with other like—minded campaigners,

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time that the polls suggest that 90% and more of Egyptians, right now,

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are supportive of the army. In essence, the military regime Egypt

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has today, is stronger and has more of a popular mandate than Mubarak

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had in his later years. Arguably, you are in a worse place to your

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Yes, I think that on the surface of it, this is true. For example, if

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the police were to drag one of us to it, this is true. For example, if

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the police were to drag one of us to jail right now, then the street

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would be behind them. And they might campaign group Journal is Without

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Borders. He said that people live campaign group Journal is Without

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Borders. He said that people live with the reality that people might

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gone. I would like to say that at with the reality that people might

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wants. However, the fact is that is looking for an easy answer,

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wants. However, the fact is that they went out for several reasons.

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The economy was one of them, the possibility of life on various

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levels, you can call it the abuse of human rights in a certain discourse,

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in another discourse you can say that if you were of a certain class

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than the possibility of your being picked up randomly from the street

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and killed in a police station were very high. These are all reasons

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which have not gone away. At the moment, the people are giving the

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current system a chance because moment, the people are giving the

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believe it will come good, that moment, the people are giving the

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will deliver what they want, that it will support them and so on. When

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the day comes that they realise will support them and so on. When

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basically everything that they left their homes for in January 2011

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continues to be the same, and, of course, by definition, worse because

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the situation worsens as you go along, then you will get a recurring

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wave. Would you acknowledge that one of the problems for the Egyptian

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people is that they look at what you, and are broadly menu is in

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people is that they look at what new movement you have launched ——

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broadly mean you, and in terms of a broad secular movement, you have

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message that connects with most ordinary Egyptian people, yes? Yes,

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we have failed to articulate a ordinary Egyptian people, yes? Yes,

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we have failed to articulate a discourse. Why? Why has this...

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we have failed to articulate a think this has been called the

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maverick middle by some academics, why have you failed to build support

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talking about a failure to build a at grassroots level in Egypt? OK,

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talking about a failure to build a political organisation that actually

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does... Well, it the fact is that it political organisation that actually

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does... Well, it the fact is that it wins votes. As I say, the Muslim

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Brotherhood 145% over the other Islamist parties. —— 45%. I think

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what happened in the presidential election is representative of what

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really went wrong. In the first round, you had Doctor Morsi, he

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really went wrong. In the first the Brotherhood candidate, who got

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nearly 5000 votes. —— 5 million votes. Just underneath them, was the

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other candidate who was supposed to be revolutionary. All over, the

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revolutionaries candidates got about 11 million votes. But it didn't

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count because they were fragmented. That is one of the main reasons

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count because they were fragmented. need to learn. Defragmentation is a

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profound danger, how would you deal reality is that the military led

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regime has outlawed not just the traditional guys, but also it has

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seized assets, and is trying to eliminate the Muslim Brotherhood in

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all of its forms in Egypt. As we have established, there is still a

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significant amount of support for the brotherhood, for the Islamist

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idea, inside your country. Where —— were you, as secularists, trying to

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build bridges to those people? Think the consensus at the moment is

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known. Note, so you abandoned them. No, of course not. Many of us have

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the political spectrum. That their No, of course not. Many of us have

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the political spectrum. That their have to learn to live together and

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so on. This is an issue of civil have to learn to live together and

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so on. This is an issue of civil political participation, and the

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And that is not happening. Thousands human rights that we will defend.

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And that is not happening. Thousands are in prison, hundreds have been

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killed, and the fact is that none of are in prison, hundreds have been

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killed, and the fact is that none of their political rights are being

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co—ordinate with them because for a very long time we have tried to

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co—ordinate with them because for a that and in the end it has not

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worked. In the end, what ever had we have given board done has been used

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and when they came to power it turned around and cosied up to the

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police. Remember, the police was declared the enemy of the Revolution

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and the revolutionary forces and was the instrument which Mooroolbark

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to declare that the police were the instrument which Mooroolbark

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increase their pay, to try and bring them into the heart of what they

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completely an act of betrayal. Clearly you do not appreciate the

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way the Muslim Brotherhood wielded power. We have moved on since then.

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Your prescription for politics today in Egypt seems to be a very bleak

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polarisation is inevitable. The Islamist of being oppressed by the

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military, you will not talk to them, and those in the population

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the state and nation, what prospect who are not with us are against

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the state and nation, what prospect is there of anything rather than

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remarked what we are trying to do more violence and polarisation was

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remarked what we are trying to do with the work I am a writer and

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activist. I'm not a politician. we are trying to do is provide a a a

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secular, revolutionary movements. Whether they are liberal or leftist

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interesting about this front and why I have joined it, it is really

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trying to learn from the lessons of the past stop is trying to learn

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from our mistakes. It is trying the past stop is trying to learn

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invent a new which replicates what was successful about the Revolution

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inevitable for coalitions and fronts to rate apart. I am fascinated by

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how you put it. You clearly believe that the revolution is still alive

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and the spirit of it can be revived. But in doing so it is fascinating

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that you are saying, remember I But in doing so it is fascinating

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writer, and I am not a politician. Many people who have love your work

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disappointed that you seem to have abandoned novel writing and fiction.

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It seems that you believe that activism have to consume your the

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consume... I does have to say that I have taken the decision to lock

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myself a wafer of it and try to work. How is it going to work? In

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a back seat. Then he went on and said, novelists have given up for

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that is the problem exactly. Poets fiction. Like there was so much

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that is the problem exactly. Poets you are inspired you... It can

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happen that you produce a brilliant you are inspired you... It can

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column in two days. A novel is a different thing. It takes months to

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put together. And it demands your heart. If your heart is elsewhere is

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really difficult. A novel will not happen. That is my personal problem.

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It is a personal problem but maiden it is a national cultural problem.

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You look at Egypt, what you get it is a national cultural problem.

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is and needs from you, let's not forget your novels were acclaimed

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from you, maybe what it needs is the observers eye to make sense at in an

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imaginative form to make sense of contribution you could make. I

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incredibly hard to carry out. When the e—mail comes about 15 kids who

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were standing on me steps of the courthouse where the killers on

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were standing on me steps of the 2010 where they are being tried

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were standing on me steps of the again and 15 kids standing up there

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with the nugget picked up and you see the immediate picture of one of

:20:52.:20:59.

them being beaten up by the police, come up with a statement, it is

:20:59.:21:09.

them being beaten up by the police, really hard. You could not in those

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absolutely determined to fight have to put down your novelist and

:21:09.:21:19.

absolutely determined to fight today's battle? I believe I am

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maybe you can see my point, that today's battle? I believe I am

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leave Egypt. To get away from the maybe your readers contribution

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leave Egypt. To get away from the day to day. I think able to start

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Egypt when there is so much at stake day to day. I think able to start

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Egypt when there is so much at stake and when there is so much happening

:21:48.:21:52.

and people are holding on to hope and try to find a way of moving

:21:52.:21:58.

incredibly full—time. This is the most difficult time that we have

:21:58.:22:02.

ever been through. Precisely because that at the time the street backs

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the military and the industry of the interior and the police, because

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people before a very long time you have respected and all of yourself

:22:20.:22:25.

as standing shoulder to shoulder with and that it public issues,

:22:25.:22:41.

supporters of any procedure that the Ministry of the interior might take

:22:41.:22:51.

against people of the brotherhood. The way that the sitting of the

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brotherhood was broken up with about 800 people dying there, which really

:22:55.:23:03.

be done like that. It has been a be done like that. It has been a

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searching. You know where your heart is. The secular forces are supposed

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to back his action and of course you condemn it. In condemning edge when

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far... You are sort of trapped?Yes, used by the brotherhood. Which as

:23:33.:23:44.

far... You are sort of trapped?Yes, the two forces that are shadowboxing

:23:44.:23:48.

soundly anti— revolutionaries. He is the last question. You have drawn a

:23:48.:23:56.

distinction between your life in the last question. You have drawn a

:23:56.:23:58.

distinction between your life in fact and your life and fiction.

:23:58.:24:00.

distinction between your life in you in your heart believe that

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Egypt's revolutionary —— revolution can be successful as a fact rather

:24:06.:24:11.

than a fiction? I believe it has to be successful and I believe that it

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is part of a global movement. A movement that is disenchanted and

:24:19.:24:20.

disillusioned with the way that movement that is disenchanted and

:24:20.:24:24.

world is run and it is trying to find a new and better way for a

:24:24.:24:29.

world is run and it is trying to and fairer world. I think we are

:24:29.:24:31.

part of it and I think we are going to win. We have to and their. It is

:24:31.:24:45.

so much for being on HARDtalk. —— we have to end there. Thank you so

:24:45.:24:51.

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