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bitter to Sri Lanka. —— contributor. Welcome to HARDtalk. Is it time | :00:00. | :00:19. | |
bitter to Sri Lanka. —— contributor. revolutionary dream? Civilians leave | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
the government, but real power lies with the Armed Forces, emergency | :00:22. | :00:27. | |
law, military courts, the outlawing of the Muslim Brotherhood. The list | :00:27. | :00:32. | |
of repressive measures invites comparison with the darkest days of | :00:32. | :00:37. | |
the Mubarak era. Today, political writer and activist Ahdaf Soueif. | :00:37. | :00:43. | |
revolution, but is it too late? Ahdaf Soueif, welcome to HARDtalk. | :00:43. | :01:19. | |
Thank you, it is good to be here. I would like to take you back to | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
something you wrote at the time would like to take you back to | :01:21. | :01:28. | |
Morsi government was toppled. " would like to take you back to | :01:28. | :01:33. | |
write, military helicopters are circling over my house. " I said | :01:33. | :01:48. | |
people, not that I want to believe. I think that the military don't | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
people, not that I want to believe. to rule, at least, they don't want | :01:50. | :02:00. | |
don't want to rule directly. You did interests and a specific view of | :02:00. | :02:10. | |
don't want to rule directly. You did support the intervention, in the | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
sense that you made it plain that you believe the Morsi government had | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
become illegitimate. Do you regret that few? I think that the whole | :02:17. | :02:26. | |
country, really, apart from the Muslim Brotherhood supporters, | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
believe that the Morsi government had become illegitimate. And I | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
believe that the country saw that we were being driven into a blank wall, | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
basically. So there is no doubt were being driven into a blank wall, | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
the will of the country was for were being driven into a blank wall, | :02:43. | :02:49. | |
Brotherhood government to fall. You said something very interesting | :02:49. | :02:54. | |
then, you said, the people apart supporters. It is not forget that | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
the Muslim Brotherhood 145% of the election. They were by far the | :02:59. | :03:11. | |
organised party —— 45%. Surely that gave them a mandate. They proceeded | :03:11. | :03:20. | |
respect, you can't just sit on the somehow, lost all of its mandate. I | :03:20. | :03:27. | |
am describing to you what the mood somehow, lost all of its mandate. I | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
am describing to you what the mood of the country was and is. The fact | :03:30. | :03:36. | |
is, the Muslim Brotherhood won a majority of Parliament. A clear | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
President Morsi won the presidency, majority. Yes, absolutely. And | :03:38. | :03:49. | |
President Morsi won the presidency, What happened after that, both after | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
they won the Parliament and after they won the presidency, was that | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
basically, they turned their back on they won the presidency, was that | :03:54. | :04:00. | |
basically, they turned their back on the people. This is a government | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
that came into place on the back of a revolution. They would not have | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
been in power had it not been for the revolution. And they needed | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
been in power had it not been for work with the people, they needed to | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
show goodwill and good intentions, and they needed to come good on | :04:12. | :04:21. | |
Doctor Morsi's promise that he would be eight president for all Egyptians | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
not just for the Muslim Brotherhood. So what happened, it was what they | :04:26. | :04:34. | |
Personally, I would have preferred that they continued, that it had | :04:34. | :04:40. | |
Brotherhood to continue to be in power, and for President Morsi to | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
continue to be in power for a bit longer. And I would have preferred | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
the removal to have happened in longer. And I would have preferred | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
different way. The reason I would have wanted him to continue for | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
longer is that there is a quarrel, there is an argument between the | :04:55. | :05:01. | |
forces of political Islam in the Muslim Brotherhood on the one hand, | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
and the other forces on the other. progressive, liberal, nonreligious | :05:04. | :05:14. | |
based. That argument was impossible to have while they were out of | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
brotherhood and the Islamists in general were repressed, were in | :05:19. | :05:26. | |
flirting with a regime and allowed to run for Parliament, they were | :05:26. | :05:33. | |
underdog. So we couldn't have the argument which we proceeded to have | :05:33. | :05:34. | |
sense in the nuance of your answer, argument which we proceeded to have | :05:34. | :05:40. | |
sense in the nuance of your answer, and the complexity of your feeling | :05:40. | :05:42. | |
about this, that you feel, maybe, revolutionaries, those who were | :05:42. | :05:49. | |
about this, that you feel, maybe, Tahrir Square in January 2011, who | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
were then in Tahrir Square again supporting the military as they | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
toppled, and let's face it, launched a coup against the Morsi government, | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
military coup, was fundamentally some of those people were misguided, | :06:00. | :06:12. | |
wrong. There was nothing that anyone could do about what happened on | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
wrong. There was nothing that anyone 30th of June. He 30th of June was, | :06:16. | :06:18. | |
millions of them, making there will if you like, the second or the third | :06:18. | :06:27. | |
millions of them, making there will no and toppling President Morsi | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
millions of them, making there will they had toppled President Mubarak. | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
The naivete was to say that we are revolution. In the army are part of | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
us, and the army will be the vehicle revolution. If we look at Egypt | :06:40. | :06:49. | |
ACC, who is effectively the leader of the Armed Forces, the idea that | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
he is delivering the next phase of the Armed Forces, the idea that | :06:53. | :07:02. | |
al—Sisi. I was just going to say that the will of the people is | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
unstoppable. Beyond that, with the military removal of Morsi, and which | :07:06. | :07:13. | |
General al—Sisi asking the people free mandate, a mandate to deal | :07:13. | :07:19. | |
General al—Sisi asking the people this situation, which was chilling, | :07:19. | :07:19. | |
to say the least, and which was this situation, which was chilling, | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
strange because if what it was was that he needed to actually deal | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
strange because if what it was was real terror, then if you are acting | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
within the boundaries of the law then you don't need a mandate from | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
the people. And so there was a question, and many of us expressed | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
disquiet at what was this mandate for. So there was a parting of the | :07:38. | :07:46. | |
ways. Is there any difference, in your view, between General al—Sisi | :07:46. | :07:54. | |
and the regime he represents, and the Mubarak regime and what he | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
court, the way the dissidents are represented? In terms of military | :07:56. | :08:02. | |
court, the way the dissidents are request and locked up —— repressed, | :08:02. | :08:03. | |
is there any difference? No, there request and locked up —— repressed, | :08:03. | :08:13. | |
again? I wouldn't say that the and then taking you all the way | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
again? I wouldn't say that the revolution took us all the way back | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
again, I would say that there has been a protest movement in Egypt for | :08:22. | :08:28. | |
have been living with waves of that revolution in January 2011. And | :08:28. | :08:36. | |
revolution since then. I think that revolution since then. I think that | :08:36. | :08:42. | |
what is happening now, what has happened over the last two and a | :08:42. | :08:50. | |
every group that has seized power, wedge it was the military in every | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
2011, or the democratically elected Brotherhood later Ron, or what is | :08:55. | :09:03. | |
happening now is actually the old regime shedding one layout, or one | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
phase, at adopting another one in policies and the same viruses. You | :09:07. | :09:18. | |
have just launched this new movement with other like—minded campaigners, | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
you have launched this movement with other like—minded campaigners, | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
time that the polls suggest that 90% and more of Egyptians, right now, | :09:27. | :09:33. | |
are supportive of the army. In essence, the military regime Egypt | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
has today, is stronger and has more of a popular mandate than Mubarak | :09:38. | :09:44. | |
had in his later years. Arguably, you are in a worse place to your | :09:44. | :09:54. | |
Yes, I think that on the surface of it, this is true. For example, if | :09:54. | :10:00. | |
the police were to drag one of us to it, this is true. For example, if | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
the police were to drag one of us to jail right now, then the street | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
would be behind them. And they might campaign group Journal is Without | :10:06. | :10:20. | |
Borders. He said that people live campaign group Journal is Without | :10:20. | :10:26. | |
Borders. He said that people live with the reality that people might | :10:26. | :10:26. | |
gone. I would like to say that at with the reality that people might | :10:26. | :10:40. | |
wants. However, the fact is that is looking for an easy answer, | :10:40. | :10:54. | |
wants. However, the fact is that they went out for several reasons. | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
The economy was one of them, the possibility of life on various | :10:57. | :11:05. | |
levels, you can call it the abuse of human rights in a certain discourse, | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
in another discourse you can say that if you were of a certain class | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
than the possibility of your being picked up randomly from the street | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
and killed in a police station were very high. These are all reasons | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
which have not gone away. At the moment, the people are giving the | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
current system a chance because moment, the people are giving the | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
believe it will come good, that moment, the people are giving the | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
will deliver what they want, that it will support them and so on. When | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
the day comes that they realise will support them and so on. When | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
basically everything that they left their homes for in January 2011 | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
continues to be the same, and, of course, by definition, worse because | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
the situation worsens as you go along, then you will get a recurring | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
wave. Would you acknowledge that one of the problems for the Egyptian | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
people is that they look at what you, and are broadly menu is in | :11:55. | :12:01. | |
people is that they look at what new movement you have launched —— | :12:01. | :12:08. | |
broadly mean you, and in terms of a broad secular movement, you have | :12:08. | :12:15. | |
message that connects with most ordinary Egyptian people, yes? Yes, | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
we have failed to articulate a ordinary Egyptian people, yes? Yes, | :12:19. | :12:28. | |
we have failed to articulate a discourse. Why? Why has this... | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
we have failed to articulate a think this has been called the | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
maverick middle by some academics, why have you failed to build support | :12:32. | :12:38. | |
talking about a failure to build a at grassroots level in Egypt? OK, | :12:38. | :12:54. | |
talking about a failure to build a political organisation that actually | :12:54. | :12:54. | |
does... Well, it the fact is that it political organisation that actually | :12:54. | :13:05. | |
does... Well, it the fact is that it wins votes. As I say, the Muslim | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
Brotherhood 145% over the other Islamist parties. —— 45%. I think | :13:07. | :13:18. | |
what happened in the presidential election is representative of what | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
really went wrong. In the first round, you had Doctor Morsi, he | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
really went wrong. In the first the Brotherhood candidate, who got | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
nearly 5000 votes. —— 5 million votes. Just underneath them, was the | :13:30. | :13:41. | |
other candidate who was supposed to be revolutionary. All over, the | :13:41. | :13:48. | |
revolutionaries candidates got about 11 million votes. But it didn't | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
count because they were fragmented. That is one of the main reasons | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
count because they were fragmented. need to learn. Defragmentation is a | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
profound danger, how would you deal reality is that the military led | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
regime has outlawed not just the traditional guys, but also it has | :14:03. | :14:13. | |
seized assets, and is trying to eliminate the Muslim Brotherhood in | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
all of its forms in Egypt. As we have established, there is still a | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
significant amount of support for the brotherhood, for the Islamist | :14:20. | :14:30. | |
idea, inside your country. Where —— were you, as secularists, trying to | :14:30. | :14:36. | |
build bridges to those people? Think the consensus at the moment is | :14:36. | :14:45. | |
known. Note, so you abandoned them. No, of course not. Many of us have | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
the political spectrum. That their No, of course not. Many of us have | :14:48. | :14:58. | |
the political spectrum. That their have to learn to live together and | :14:58. | :15:00. | |
so on. This is an issue of civil have to learn to live together and | :15:00. | :15:06. | |
so on. This is an issue of civil political participation, and the | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
And that is not happening. Thousands human rights that we will defend. | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
And that is not happening. Thousands are in prison, hundreds have been | :15:14. | :15:14. | |
killed, and the fact is that none of are in prison, hundreds have been | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
killed, and the fact is that none of their political rights are being | :15:17. | :15:18. | |
co—ordinate with them because for a very long time we have tried to | :15:18. | :15:31. | |
co—ordinate with them because for a that and in the end it has not | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
worked. In the end, what ever had we have given board done has been used | :15:35. | :15:42. | |
and when they came to power it turned around and cosied up to the | :15:42. | :15:50. | |
police. Remember, the police was declared the enemy of the Revolution | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
and the revolutionary forces and was the instrument which Mooroolbark | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
to declare that the police were the instrument which Mooroolbark | :15:58. | :16:11. | |
increase their pay, to try and bring them into the heart of what they | :16:11. | :16:21. | |
completely an act of betrayal. Clearly you do not appreciate the | :16:21. | :16:27. | |
way the Muslim Brotherhood wielded power. We have moved on since then. | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
Your prescription for politics today in Egypt seems to be a very bleak | :16:32. | :16:40. | |
polarisation is inevitable. The Islamist of being oppressed by the | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
military, you will not talk to them, and those in the population | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
the state and nation, what prospect who are not with us are against | :16:47. | :16:56. | |
the state and nation, what prospect is there of anything rather than | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
remarked what we are trying to do more violence and polarisation was | :17:00. | :17:10. | |
remarked what we are trying to do with the work I am a writer and | :17:10. | :17:10. | |
activist. I'm not a politician. we are trying to do is provide a a a | :17:10. | :17:29. | |
secular, revolutionary movements. Whether they are liberal or leftist | :17:29. | :17:39. | |
interesting about this front and why I have joined it, it is really | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
trying to learn from the lessons of the past stop is trying to learn | :17:44. | :17:45. | |
from our mistakes. It is trying the past stop is trying to learn | :17:45. | :17:53. | |
invent a new which replicates what was successful about the Revolution | :17:53. | :18:04. | |
inevitable for coalitions and fronts to rate apart. I am fascinated by | :18:04. | :18:14. | |
how you put it. You clearly believe that the revolution is still alive | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
and the spirit of it can be revived. But in doing so it is fascinating | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
that you are saying, remember I But in doing so it is fascinating | :18:20. | :18:27. | |
writer, and I am not a politician. Many people who have love your work | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
disappointed that you seem to have abandoned novel writing and fiction. | :18:32. | :18:39. | |
It seems that you believe that activism have to consume your the | :18:39. | :18:49. | |
consume... I does have to say that I have taken the decision to lock | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
myself a wafer of it and try to work. How is it going to work? In | :18:54. | :19:02. | |
a back seat. Then he went on and said, novelists have given up for | :19:02. | :19:08. | |
that is the problem exactly. Poets fiction. Like there was so much | :19:08. | :19:28. | |
that is the problem exactly. Poets you are inspired you... It can | :19:28. | :19:28. | |
happen that you produce a brilliant you are inspired you... It can | :19:28. | :19:34. | |
column in two days. A novel is a different thing. It takes months to | :19:34. | :19:41. | |
put together. And it demands your heart. If your heart is elsewhere is | :19:41. | :19:48. | |
really difficult. A novel will not happen. That is my personal problem. | :19:48. | :19:54. | |
It is a personal problem but maiden it is a national cultural problem. | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
You look at Egypt, what you get it is a national cultural problem. | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
is and needs from you, let's not forget your novels were acclaimed | :20:04. | :20:09. | |
from you, maybe what it needs is the observers eye to make sense at in an | :20:10. | :20:16. | |
imaginative form to make sense of contribution you could make. I | :20:16. | :20:31. | |
incredibly hard to carry out. When the e—mail comes about 15 kids who | :20:31. | :20:39. | |
were standing on me steps of the courthouse where the killers on | :20:39. | :20:47. | |
were standing on me steps of the 2010 where they are being tried | :20:47. | :20:48. | |
were standing on me steps of the again and 15 kids standing up there | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
with the nugget picked up and you see the immediate picture of one of | :20:52. | :20:59. | |
them being beaten up by the police, come up with a statement, it is | :20:59. | :21:09. | |
them being beaten up by the police, really hard. You could not in those | :21:09. | :21:09. | |
absolutely determined to fight have to put down your novelist and | :21:09. | :21:19. | |
absolutely determined to fight today's battle? I believe I am | :21:19. | :21:20. | |
maybe you can see my point, that today's battle? I believe I am | :21:20. | :21:26. | |
leave Egypt. To get away from the maybe your readers contribution | :21:26. | :21:36. | |
leave Egypt. To get away from the day to day. I think able to start | :21:36. | :21:36. | |
Egypt when there is so much at stake day to day. I think able to start | :21:36. | :21:48. | |
Egypt when there is so much at stake and when there is so much happening | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
and people are holding on to hope and try to find a way of moving | :21:52. | :21:58. | |
incredibly full—time. This is the most difficult time that we have | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
ever been through. Precisely because that at the time the street backs | :22:02. | :22:14. | |
the military and the industry of the interior and the police, because | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
people before a very long time you have respected and all of yourself | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
as standing shoulder to shoulder with and that it public issues, | :22:25. | :22:41. | |
supporters of any procedure that the Ministry of the interior might take | :22:41. | :22:51. | |
against people of the brotherhood. The way that the sitting of the | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
brotherhood was broken up with about 800 people dying there, which really | :22:55. | :23:03. | |
be done like that. It has been a be done like that. It has been a | :23:03. | :23:13. | |
searching. You know where your heart is. The secular forces are supposed | :23:13. | :23:27. | |
to back his action and of course you condemn it. In condemning edge when | :23:27. | :23:33. | |
far... You are sort of trapped?Yes, used by the brotherhood. Which as | :23:33. | :23:44. | |
far... You are sort of trapped?Yes, the two forces that are shadowboxing | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
soundly anti— revolutionaries. He is the last question. You have drawn a | :23:48. | :23:56. | |
distinction between your life in the last question. You have drawn a | :23:56. | :23:58. | |
distinction between your life in fact and your life and fiction. | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
distinction between your life in you in your heart believe that | :24:00. | :24:06. | |
Egypt's revolutionary —— revolution can be successful as a fact rather | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
than a fiction? I believe it has to be successful and I believe that it | :24:11. | :24:19. | |
is part of a global movement. A movement that is disenchanted and | :24:19. | :24:20. | |
disillusioned with the way that movement that is disenchanted and | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
world is run and it is trying to find a new and better way for a | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
world is run and it is trying to and fairer world. I think we are | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
part of it and I think we are going to win. We have to and their. It is | :24:31. | :24:45. | |
so much for being on HARDtalk. —— we have to end there. Thank you so | :24:45. | :24:51. |