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Welcome to HARDtalk. Our winds of change blowing across Iran? The | :00:15. | :00:21. | |
Islamic Republic's new president, Hassan Rouhani, has engineered a | :00:21. | :00:26. | |
diplomatic opening with the US. international isolation. Where will | :00:26. | :00:34. | |
that leave diehard opponents of international isolation. Where will | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
regime? My guest is Reza Pahlavi, XO oldest son of the late Shah of Iran | :00:40. | :00:47. | |
and spokesman for the self—styled Iran National Council. Does the | :00:47. | :00:53. | |
and spokesman for the self—styled have a role to play in the future? | :00:53. | :01:27. | |
welcome to HARDtalk. Good afternoon. Thank you for having me on your | :01:27. | :01:29. | |
programme. It is a pleasure. Let me Thank you for having me on your | :01:29. | :01:38. | |
programme. It is a pleasure. Let me have seen the governments of Iran | :01:38. | :01:38. | |
highest level. Do you welcome it? have seen the governments of Iran | :01:38. | :01:48. | |
highest level. Do you welcome it? Every time there is a possibility of | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
understanding of what it site says, Every time there is a possibility of | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
That goes without saying. I wonder that is better than throwing rockets | :01:55. | :02:07. | |
That goes without saying. I wonder whether you are prepared to admit | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
you got it wrong. Earlier in the year, you said, whoever was elected | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
as the next president of Iran, he will be a puppet of the supreme | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
leader. Are you prepared to say will be a puppet of the supreme | :02:16. | :02:24. | |
was incorrect? No. I still believe that. I am not the only one. If | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
was incorrect? No. I still believe hear what the supreme leader says, | :02:27. | :02:34. | |
there is not a... A consensus of opinion as to how to deal with the | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
issue. Even a simple phone call opinion as to how to deal with the | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
a big issue for the supreme leader, let alone the dialogue itself. That | :02:41. | :02:48. | |
indicates, as far as the internet —— concerned, you are not dealing with | :02:48. | :02:54. | |
one consolidated opinion. That will be more evident as we speak. That is | :02:54. | :03:02. | |
my point. Under Hassan Rouhani, there is a diplomatic initiative. He | :03:02. | :03:12. | |
nuclear issue. The supreme leader has expressed some concern about the | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
phone call we talked about. It indicates that if you are prepared | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
in the opposition to acknowledge interesting development, that might | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
clarify some issues. Reading the interesting development, that might | :03:23. | :03:38. | |
team is properly, as opposed to extract relating selectively some | :03:38. | :03:38. | |
issues that can be encouraging in extract relating selectively some | :03:38. | :03:46. | |
reality will lead us somewhere else. reality will lead us somewhere else. | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
at the history of the regime and its at the history of the regime and its | :03:48. | :03:58. | |
ideological religious system, aiming from the beginning, it has been | :03:58. | :04:04. | |
beginning to crumble under domestic to export an ideology throughout the | :04:04. | :04:12. | |
beginning to crumble under domestic pressure. The regime is finding | :04:12. | :04:19. | |
itself into the court waters. —— difficult. The regime is facing | :04:19. | :04:27. | |
itself into the court waters. —— a lose proposition. If they were to | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
cave in and go against the ascent of one unifying slogan that has kept | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
the fragments of the regime together so far, culminating in the infamous | :04:33. | :04:46. | |
throughout the regime itself. Is presidents do that without having | :04:46. | :05:01. | |
pressure? You let out the sceptical I may. You lay out the sceptical | :05:01. | :05:10. | |
case very clearly. Look at the reality. Certain concrete things | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
have happened. Political prisoners, including a high profile human | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
rights leader, have been released. Academic intellect was in Tehran | :05:18. | :05:24. | |
have it written an open letter to Obama. Hassan Rouhani is new and | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
made indicating he is —— you are Obama, reciprocate the moves he | :05:30. | :05:36. | |
made indicating he is —— you are prepared to relax sanctions. Did you | :05:36. | :05:45. | |
back that caught? —— call? We will get to the human rights issue later. | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
On the other side of the Queen, get to the human rights issue later. | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
might be faced with a phenomenal as we saw the crumbling of the Soviet | :05:53. | :05:54. | |
of perestroika. If that is the case, we saw the crumbling of the Soviet | :05:54. | :06:08. | |
of perestroika. If that is the case, we welcome it. I will be the first | :06:08. | :06:08. | |
person to say any time pressure we welcome it. I will be the first | :06:08. | :06:14. | |
people. I do not think the regime removed from society, it will be a | :06:14. | :06:26. | |
people. I do not think the regime again, we cannot abandon diplomacy | :06:26. | :06:38. | |
and go to war. The Iranian people have been the most valiant defenders | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
of values. Unfortunately, there have been the most valiant defenders | :06:40. | :06:48. | |
international community. For the prisoners have been released, this | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
is not to be treated as a concession but as a principal. All political | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
prisoners are to be freed. The question is, how far is the regime | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
willing to go to give in to demands will lobby on what the international | :07:04. | :07:12. | |
committee expects. —— beyond. We do watching and supporting an onboard | :07:12. | :07:22. | |
in dialogue and diplomatic process. I am getting to my puzzlement with | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
your position. Even before Hassan Rouhani came to power and torque is | :07:25. | :07:32. | |
diplomatic initiative, you were extraordinarily critical of Obama. | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
In the summer of 2012, he described, I'm quoting the Jerusalem Post, | :07:37. | :07:43. | |
In the summer of 2012, he described, this is your word, the President is | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
hellbent on engaging with the Tehran regime just to prove that he is | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
hellbent on engaging with the Tehran George W Bush. You compared him | :07:52. | :07:53. | |
First of all, the first answer given George W Bush. You compared him | :07:53. | :08:10. | |
First of all, the first answer given to the movement back in 2009, was a | :08:10. | :08:19. | |
Protesting the result of a rigged establish the basis we were prepared | :08:19. | :08:27. | |
to have for dialogue. The problem establish the basis we were prepared | :08:27. | :08:36. | |
to have for dialogue. The problem Unfortunately, we are facing the | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
fact that Iran is on the verge of obtaining nuclear weapons. This | :08:38. | :08:48. | |
fact that Iran is on the verge of suggested it. Iran is left than | :08:48. | :08:49. | |
fact that Iran is on the verge of year away from applying nuclear | :08:49. | :08:49. | |
bombs. That that mean? It means year away from applying nuclear | :08:49. | :08:56. | |
world realises that if diplomacy was to fail yet again, the options are | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
becoming less available. That is when I start to worry as an Iranian. | :09:00. | :09:06. | |
I am afraid that because so much time has been wasted, they fell | :09:06. | :09:19. | |
I am afraid that because so much different picture, there will be | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
confrontation. I am trying to avoid confrontation. If we limit the topic | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
to simple dialogue with the regime, without preparing an opportunity | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
that might avoid conflict and war, that is the part I am concerned | :09:31. | :09:37. | |
evident in the action with foreign governments as they deal with Iran. | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
UKIP telling me that this is as governments as they deal with Iran. | :09:39. | :09:45. | |
Iranian. You have an extraordinary Iranian heritage. But it taught | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
Iranian. You have an extraordinary from Washington, DC. Your basic | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
Iranian. You have an extraordinary Barrowland, in the US. I wonder | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
Iranian. You have an extraordinary Iranians watching this in their | :09:56. | :09:58. | |
televisions in Iran will feel about your words. After all, you emphasise | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
what you see as the imminent threat of Iran acquiring nuclear weapons. | :10:03. | :10:11. | |
That may suggest you are more lined up with Benjamin Netanyahu, who | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
comes to the UN who describes Hassan clothing keeps telling the world | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
support the Israeli position that within months or two years, they | :10:19. | :10:30. | |
will have to be a military strike against Iran? That is exactly my | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
to avoid a scenario whereby some against Iran? That is exactly my | :10:35. | :10:43. | |
governments will decide to opt for literary intervention. It will be a | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
losing —— a lose lose for all of us. But you are supporting a strike | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
against Iran? Nobody is focusing on what I have been saying for at least | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
three years and then some before that. The most important way to | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
avoid war, and wet diplomacy has failed, is a third way. Refer to the | :11:01. | :11:11. | |
Iranian people who are at the end of the day are the first victims of the | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
circumstances, under so much talent themselves, things that have proven | :11:15. | :11:31. | |
changes... —— non—violent changes, if South Africa, the former East | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
Bloc countries, there is movement in the Czech Republic, what have you | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
Instead of thinking of warmongering and sabre rattling and threatening | :11:39. | :11:54. | |
Iran and Iranians with the potential of attack to that country, why not | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
help the people themselves? They will be the first to tell you, we | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
want to liberate ourselves. The regime is sandwiching us. It is | :12:04. | :12:11. | |
important is, what relevance does our country to the brink of attack. | :12:11. | :12:36. | |
important is, what relevance does that have to Iran today? —— against | :12:36. | :12:36. | |
disconnect between your voice in communism in Poland. There is a | :12:36. | :12:43. | |
have to live with. They have tried exile and the reality people in | :12:43. | :12:52. | |
have to live with. They have tried 2011. Their movements were crushed. | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
Many people were imprisoned. It 2011. Their movements were crushed. | :12:54. | :12:56. | |
easy for you to talk about another round of civil disobedience. You are | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
not there. I do not know better round of civil disobedience. You are | :12:58. | :13:09. | |
physical presence is important. round of civil disobedience. You are | :13:09. | :13:21. | |
consider myself being at some point in Tehran, in the small cities, | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
consider myself being at some point in the refugee camps somewhere in | :13:25. | :13:31. | |
Turkey or in Iraqi. Speaking on behalf of, to the expectations that | :13:31. | :13:38. | |
my fellow compatriots have. I have been to Paris and London, all over | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
the place. I am not outside of Iran generation who could have been | :13:43. | :13:50. | |
there. If I step in Tehran airport right now, what will happen to me? | :13:50. | :13:56. | |
The question is not about me not wanting to be there. Just because I | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
am not in my country does not mean I am disconnected. Today's population | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
and the young generation is in June with what I am saying. I wonder | :14:03. | :14:10. | |
about that. I am trying to dress their expectation. I want to talk | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
about your personal situation. The final point about what are referred | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
to as possible to connect between you and the people inside your | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
country. I am sure you look at Twitter. The many reformist blogs | :14:23. | :14:29. | |
that there are in Iran, despite Twitter. The many reformist blogs | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
you call the widespread repression. agree with the current regime have | :14:33. | :14:40. | |
their voices heard. I read a lot of Twitter feeds and blogs. Many people | :14:40. | :14:42. | |
from Hassan Rouhani. They have high Twitter feeds and blogs. Many people | :14:43. | :14:50. | |
from Hassan Rouhani. They have high hopes. It seems to me you are not | :14:50. | :14:50. | |
prepared to acknowledge any of that hopes. It seems to me you are not | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
prepared to acknowledge any of that excitement until —— excitement. | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
prepared to acknowledge any of that might be at a turning point moment. | :14:58. | :15:09. | |
I have heard this song before. Since then, 20 years are gone by. Iran has | :15:09. | :15:18. | |
unemployment is skyrocketing. We have problems ranging from property | :15:18. | :15:25. | |
prostitution and so many other elements of society. I find it hard | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
for any Westerners to believe that Iranians get excited as a result of | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
some candidate pretending that he is going to solve the issue. They want | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
tangible results. I say, prove it to us, Mr Rouhani. Prove it to us that | :15:38. | :15:45. | |
the regime is willing to bend under expectations that are appropriate, | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
Stanford or an international cyber. My job is not to advocate what the | :15:50. | :15:57. | |
people expect of the regime. My My job is not to advocate what the | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
is to say that the Iranians it will demand more than that. They're | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
concerned with lack of political concerned with the lack of any | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
whereby they can have freedom of six press on. If a couple of people | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
happen to Twitter couple of things, I don't think that is the freedom of | :16:14. | :16:28. | |
international government, should do to help further this third way, | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
international government, should do internal rebellion that you are | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
the people of Iran, but the one talking about? You have described | :16:34. | :16:40. | |
that the United States engaged in thing they seem not to want to want | :16:40. | :16:52. | |
regime removed from power. Do you that see the regime —— that saw | :16:52. | :16:59. | |
regime removed from power. Do you think the Iranian public wants | :17:00. | :17:00. | |
sustained intervention and meddling from outside governments to change | :17:00. | :17:10. | |
that is argument for another time. the one that you have will stop | :17:10. | :17:18. | |
that is argument for another time. 20th century witnessed all sorts of | :17:18. | :17:19. | |
manipulations or interventions across the globe that basically | :17:19. | :17:28. | |
societies like ours to have full independence and full participation | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
themselves, which is exactly the platform that I subscribe to. In | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
fact, it is the very essence of platform that I subscribe to. In | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
struggle that we have today with our international community? The only | :17:39. | :17:48. | |
thing as Iranians that we ask the international community to support | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
is our right as Iranians citizens to be able to conduct free and fair | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
elections in our own country, in order for the people to be able | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
elections in our own country, in choose their true representatives, | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
in order to be able to adopt a new constitution that will provide us | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
system, which will be the only way for Iran to be able to come out | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
system, which will be the only way this chaos and find its path back to | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
modesty —— modernity, freedom, and rejoining the community of free | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
modesty —— modernity, freedom, and spring missions. We are not asking | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
the will to intervene on our behalf, all are asking is for them to defend | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
us in these rights. There are only two possibilities. Either the regime | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
concedes to this legitimate demand, or it doesn't. Then the question is, | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
if it does not, is the world going to pack their bags and go home? | :18:33. | :18:40. | |
if it does not, is the world going we going to let a fascist regime or | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
should apply to South Africa, but a totalitarian regime prevail at no | :18:43. | :18:55. | |
should apply to South Africa, but Ukraine, what not to run. —— not to | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
spokesman for this self—styled Iran. are you really the right man to | :18:59. | :19:12. | |
spokesman for this self—styled Iran. You are a man with royal blood in | :19:12. | :19:13. | |
Iran of the 21st century. What really is the point of view being a | :19:13. | :19:29. | |
movement? First of all, it is not about me, it is about the message. | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
If the message is important, it about me, it is about the message. | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
not listen to the accounts at the end of the day. But with respect, | :19:34. | :19:40. | |
you are the messenger. How do we measure what the Iranian people | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
think and want if they have no ability to openly stated without any | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
chance of being persecuted as a result of their opinions? If you | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
want to know why there is some importance of my role among other | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
things is that anybody associated with being probed me or my family is | :19:57. | :20:06. | |
immediately subjected to the death penalty in Iran. That speaks for | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
itself. It will was —— if it was irrelevant or unimportant, why would | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
the regime bother assassinating irrelevant or unimportant, why would | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
executing people because of their ideological tennis is? I am not | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
comparison, but if you check, you will see that when I took action | :20:22. | :20:29. | |
was voted man of the year by many Iranians as it was polled. You can | :20:29. | :20:40. | |
interpret Iranian internal opinion many different ways, but it seems to | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
father, given all that we now know me, given what happens to your | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
father, given all that we now know about his systemic human rights | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
committee of tourists, the State abuses, his repression is despite | :20:51. | :21:04. | |
Department, the Iranian people might Department, the Iranian people might | :21:04. | :21:06. | |
regard you with a little bit more credibility if you were to say that | :21:06. | :21:08. | |
any future government which involved credibility if you were to say that | :21:08. | :21:24. | |
many of the things that your father the Iranian National Council —— | :21:24. | :21:40. | |
many of the things that your father critical of human rights violations | :21:40. | :21:40. | |
of not just not just us resume, critical of human rights violations | :21:40. | :21:49. | |
the past. I'm on the record. I'm not going to condone any violation of | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
human rights. The actual judgement in history left to the overall | :21:52. | :21:58. | |
public and based on the facts, but I someone like you to sit in your | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
chair and say that while I am held in contempt because of a genetic | :22:03. | :22:11. | |
connection, that I am not free to be is like me saying I should judge you | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
based on what your parents did. is like me saying I should judge you | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
think that is a little bit childish if you forgive my expression. People | :22:19. | :22:27. | |
have their own opinion, they know irrelevant as to what was done in | :22:27. | :22:33. | |
the past, because I'm talking about the future. I am a generation that | :22:33. | :22:40. | |
has enough of a backdrop of knowing what went wrong or well in the past | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
and a bridge to the generation of the future. Do you really think | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
and a bridge to the generation of can be a bridge to Iran's future? | :22:48. | :22:50. | |
Goodness knows, your family has suffered a great deal. Many would | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
but your family has also suffered a but your family has also suffered a | :22:54. | :23:00. | |
great. You lost to several rings —— siblings who took their own lives | :23:00. | :23:01. | |
live with what happened to your because they found it difficult | :23:01. | :23:09. | |
live with what happened to your family. Would it not be difficult | :23:09. | :23:17. | |
and accept that Iran has no place for that you any more. I disagree. I | :23:17. | :23:25. | |
think a lot of people in Iran think that while there are certainly | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
what was done and accomplished in overwhelmingly positive result of | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
what was done and accomplished in the 20th century under both my | :23:34. | :23:40. | |
father and grandfather. What I am saying to the Iranians beep will is | :23:40. | :23:42. | |
but we are talking about a certain not that we want to repeat the past, | :23:42. | :23:50. | |
but we are talking about a certain series of principles that as we | :23:50. | :23:52. | |
compare ourselves to where the world is going to free and progressive | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
societies, as opposed to countries totalitarian system, of course we're | :23:56. | :24:02. | |
not going to come out of the system. Therefore the question at the end of | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
the day has nothing to do with the way in what I am trying to do. The | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
people of Iran will have to make that decision. All I am standing for | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
is their opportunity to make the decision for themselves. And provide | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
the least costly way to come out of this issue. I think that civil | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
disobedience and nonviolence, which was the key position that I have | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
taken and I still abide by, is a less costly way to achieve the goal | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
as to other scenarios, which will involve violence and will not get us | :24:28. | :24:30. | |
democracy. That is what I stand involve violence and will not get us | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
At the end of the day, but the people decide. Reza Pahlavi, we | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
At the end of the day, but the to end there. Thank you very much. | :24:39. | :24:43. |