Reza Pahlavi - Spokesman, Iran National Council HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk. Our winds of change blowing across Iran? The

Islamic Republic's new president, Hassan Rouhani, has engineered a

diplomatic opening with the US. international isolation. Where will

that leave diehard opponents of international isolation. Where will

regime? My guest is Reza Pahlavi, XO oldest son of the late Shah of Iran

and spokesman for the self—styled Iran National Council. Does the

and spokesman for the self—styled have a role to play in the future?

welcome to HARDtalk. Good afternoon. Thank you for having me on your

programme. It is a pleasure. Let me Thank you for having me on your

programme. It is a pleasure. Let me have seen the governments of Iran

highest level. Do you welcome it? have seen the governments of Iran

highest level. Do you welcome it? Every time there is a possibility of

understanding of what it site says, Every time there is a possibility of

That goes without saying. I wonder that is better than throwing rockets

That goes without saying. I wonder whether you are prepared to admit

you got it wrong. Earlier in the year, you said, whoever was elected

as the next president of Iran, he will be a puppet of the supreme

leader. Are you prepared to say will be a puppet of the supreme

was incorrect? No. I still believe that. I am not the only one. If

was incorrect? No. I still believe hear what the supreme leader says,

there is not a... A consensus of opinion as to how to deal with the

issue. Even a simple phone call opinion as to how to deal with the

a big issue for the supreme leader, let alone the dialogue itself. That

indicates, as far as the internet —— concerned, you are not dealing with

one consolidated opinion. That will be more evident as we speak. That is

my point. Under Hassan Rouhani, there is a diplomatic initiative. He

nuclear issue. The supreme leader has expressed some concern about the

phone call we talked about. It indicates that if you are prepared

in the opposition to acknowledge interesting development, that might

clarify some issues. Reading the interesting development, that might

team is properly, as opposed to extract relating selectively some

issues that can be encouraging in extract relating selectively some

reality will lead us somewhere else. reality will lead us somewhere else.

at the history of the regime and its at the history of the regime and its

ideological religious system, aiming from the beginning, it has been

beginning to crumble under domestic to export an ideology throughout the

beginning to crumble under domestic pressure. The regime is finding

itself into the court waters. —— difficult. The regime is facing

itself into the court waters. —— a lose proposition. If they were to

cave in and go against the ascent of one unifying slogan that has kept

the fragments of the regime together so far, culminating in the infamous

throughout the regime itself. Is presidents do that without having

pressure? You let out the sceptical I may. You lay out the sceptical

case very clearly. Look at the reality. Certain concrete things

have happened. Political prisoners, including a high profile human

rights leader, have been released. Academic intellect was in Tehran

have it written an open letter to Obama. Hassan Rouhani is new and

made indicating he is —— you are Obama, reciprocate the moves he

made indicating he is —— you are prepared to relax sanctions. Did you

back that caught? —— call? We will get to the human rights issue later.

On the other side of the Queen, get to the human rights issue later.

might be faced with a phenomenal as we saw the crumbling of the Soviet

of perestroika. If that is the case, we saw the crumbling of the Soviet

of perestroika. If that is the case, we welcome it. I will be the first

person to say any time pressure we welcome it. I will be the first

people. I do not think the regime removed from society, it will be a

people. I do not think the regime again, we cannot abandon diplomacy

and go to war. The Iranian people have been the most valiant defenders

of values. Unfortunately, there have been the most valiant defenders

international community. For the prisoners have been released, this

is not to be treated as a concession but as a principal. All political

prisoners are to be freed. The question is, how far is the regime

willing to go to give in to demands will lobby on what the international

committee expects. —— beyond. We do watching and supporting an onboard

in dialogue and diplomatic process. I am getting to my puzzlement with

your position. Even before Hassan Rouhani came to power and torque is

diplomatic initiative, you were extraordinarily critical of Obama.

In the summer of 2012, he described, I'm quoting the Jerusalem Post,

In the summer of 2012, he described, this is your word, the President is

hellbent on engaging with the Tehran regime just to prove that he is

hellbent on engaging with the Tehran George W Bush. You compared him

First of all, the first answer given George W Bush. You compared him

First of all, the first answer given to the movement back in 2009, was a

Protesting the result of a rigged establish the basis we were prepared

to have for dialogue. The problem establish the basis we were prepared

to have for dialogue. The problem Unfortunately, we are facing the

fact that Iran is on the verge of obtaining nuclear weapons. This

fact that Iran is on the verge of suggested it. Iran is left than

fact that Iran is on the verge of year away from applying nuclear

bombs. That that mean? It means year away from applying nuclear

world realises that if diplomacy was to fail yet again, the options are

becoming less available. That is when I start to worry as an Iranian.

I am afraid that because so much time has been wasted, they fell

I am afraid that because so much different picture, there will be

confrontation. I am trying to avoid confrontation. If we limit the topic

to simple dialogue with the regime, without preparing an opportunity

that might avoid conflict and war, that is the part I am concerned

evident in the action with foreign governments as they deal with Iran.

UKIP telling me that this is as governments as they deal with Iran.

Iranian. You have an extraordinary Iranian heritage. But it taught

Iranian. You have an extraordinary from Washington, DC. Your basic

Iranian. You have an extraordinary Barrowland, in the US. I wonder

Iranian. You have an extraordinary Iranians watching this in their

televisions in Iran will feel about your words. After all, you emphasise

what you see as the imminent threat of Iran acquiring nuclear weapons.

That may suggest you are more lined up with Benjamin Netanyahu, who

comes to the UN who describes Hassan clothing keeps telling the world

support the Israeli position that within months or two years, they

will have to be a military strike against Iran? That is exactly my

to avoid a scenario whereby some against Iran? That is exactly my

governments will decide to opt for literary intervention. It will be a

losing —— a lose lose for all of us. But you are supporting a strike

against Iran? Nobody is focusing on what I have been saying for at least

three years and then some before that. The most important way to

avoid war, and wet diplomacy has failed, is a third way. Refer to the

Iranian people who are at the end of the day are the first victims of the

circumstances, under so much talent themselves, things that have proven

changes... —— non—violent changes, if South Africa, the former East

Bloc countries, there is movement in the Czech Republic, what have you

Instead of thinking of warmongering and sabre rattling and threatening

Iran and Iranians with the potential of attack to that country, why not

help the people themselves? They will be the first to tell you, we

want to liberate ourselves. The regime is sandwiching us. It is

important is, what relevance does our country to the brink of attack.

important is, what relevance does that have to Iran today? —— against

disconnect between your voice in communism in Poland. There is a

have to live with. They have tried exile and the reality people in

have to live with. They have tried 2011. Their movements were crushed.

Many people were imprisoned. It 2011. Their movements were crushed.

easy for you to talk about another round of civil disobedience. You are

not there. I do not know better round of civil disobedience. You are

physical presence is important. round of civil disobedience. You are

consider myself being at some point in Tehran, in the small cities,

consider myself being at some point in the refugee camps somewhere in

Turkey or in Iraqi. Speaking on behalf of, to the expectations that

my fellow compatriots have. I have been to Paris and London, all over

the place. I am not outside of Iran generation who could have been

there. If I step in Tehran airport right now, what will happen to me?

The question is not about me not wanting to be there. Just because I

am not in my country does not mean I am disconnected. Today's population

and the young generation is in June with what I am saying. I wonder

about that. I am trying to dress their expectation. I want to talk

about your personal situation. The final point about what are referred

to as possible to connect between you and the people inside your

country. I am sure you look at Twitter. The many reformist blogs

that there are in Iran, despite Twitter. The many reformist blogs

you call the widespread repression. agree with the current regime have

their voices heard. I read a lot of Twitter feeds and blogs. Many people

from Hassan Rouhani. They have high Twitter feeds and blogs. Many people

from Hassan Rouhani. They have high hopes. It seems to me you are not

prepared to acknowledge any of that hopes. It seems to me you are not

prepared to acknowledge any of that excitement until —— excitement.

prepared to acknowledge any of that might be at a turning point moment.

I have heard this song before. Since then, 20 years are gone by. Iran has

unemployment is skyrocketing. We have problems ranging from property

prostitution and so many other elements of society. I find it hard

for any Westerners to believe that Iranians get excited as a result of

some candidate pretending that he is going to solve the issue. They want

tangible results. I say, prove it to us, Mr Rouhani. Prove it to us that

the regime is willing to bend under expectations that are appropriate,

Stanford or an international cyber. My job is not to advocate what the

people expect of the regime. My My job is not to advocate what the

is to say that the Iranians it will demand more than that. They're

concerned with lack of political concerned with the lack of any

whereby they can have freedom of six press on. If a couple of people

happen to Twitter couple of things, I don't think that is the freedom of

international government, should do to help further this third way,

international government, should do internal rebellion that you are

the people of Iran, but the one talking about? You have described

that the United States engaged in thing they seem not to want to want

regime removed from power. Do you that see the regime —— that saw

regime removed from power. Do you think the Iranian public wants

sustained intervention and meddling from outside governments to change

that is argument for another time. the one that you have will stop

that is argument for another time. 20th century witnessed all sorts of

manipulations or interventions across the globe that basically

societies like ours to have full independence and full participation

themselves, which is exactly the platform that I subscribe to. In

fact, it is the very essence of platform that I subscribe to. In

struggle that we have today with our international community? The only

thing as Iranians that we ask the international community to support

is our right as Iranians citizens to be able to conduct free and fair

elections in our own country, in order for the people to be able

elections in our own country, in choose their true representatives,

in order to be able to adopt a new constitution that will provide us

system, which will be the only way for Iran to be able to come out

system, which will be the only way this chaos and find its path back to

modesty —— modernity, freedom, and rejoining the community of free

modesty —— modernity, freedom, and spring missions. We are not asking

the will to intervene on our behalf, all are asking is for them to defend

us in these rights. There are only two possibilities. Either the regime

concedes to this legitimate demand, or it doesn't. Then the question is,

if it does not, is the world going to pack their bags and go home?

if it does not, is the world going we going to let a fascist regime or

should apply to South Africa, but a totalitarian regime prevail at no

should apply to South Africa, but Ukraine, what not to run. —— not to

spokesman for this self—styled Iran. are you really the right man to

spokesman for this self—styled Iran. You are a man with royal blood in

Iran of the 21st century. What really is the point of view being a

movement? First of all, it is not about me, it is about the message.

If the message is important, it about me, it is about the message.

not listen to the accounts at the end of the day. But with respect,

you are the messenger. How do we measure what the Iranian people

think and want if they have no ability to openly stated without any

chance of being persecuted as a result of their opinions? If you

want to know why there is some importance of my role among other

things is that anybody associated with being probed me or my family is

immediately subjected to the death penalty in Iran. That speaks for

itself. It will was —— if it was irrelevant or unimportant, why would

the regime bother assassinating irrelevant or unimportant, why would

executing people because of their ideological tennis is? I am not

comparison, but if you check, you will see that when I took action

was voted man of the year by many Iranians as it was polled. You can

interpret Iranian internal opinion many different ways, but it seems to

father, given all that we now know me, given what happens to your

father, given all that we now know about his systemic human rights

committee of tourists, the State abuses, his repression is despite

Department, the Iranian people might Department, the Iranian people might

regard you with a little bit more credibility if you were to say that

any future government which involved credibility if you were to say that

many of the things that your father the Iranian National Council ——

many of the things that your father critical of human rights violations

of not just not just us resume, critical of human rights violations

the past. I'm on the record. I'm not going to condone any violation of

human rights. The actual judgement in history left to the overall

public and based on the facts, but I someone like you to sit in your

chair and say that while I am held in contempt because of a genetic

connection, that I am not free to be is like me saying I should judge you

based on what your parents did. is like me saying I should judge you

think that is a little bit childish if you forgive my expression. People

have their own opinion, they know irrelevant as to what was done in

the past, because I'm talking about the future. I am a generation that

has enough of a backdrop of knowing what went wrong or well in the past

and a bridge to the generation of the future. Do you really think

and a bridge to the generation of can be a bridge to Iran's future?

Goodness knows, your family has suffered a great deal. Many would

but your family has also suffered a but your family has also suffered a

great. You lost to several rings —— siblings who took their own lives

live with what happened to your because they found it difficult

live with what happened to your family. Would it not be difficult

and accept that Iran has no place for that you any more. I disagree. I

think a lot of people in Iran think that while there are certainly

what was done and accomplished in overwhelmingly positive result of

what was done and accomplished in the 20th century under both my

father and grandfather. What I am saying to the Iranians beep will is

but we are talking about a certain not that we want to repeat the past,

but we are talking about a certain series of principles that as we

compare ourselves to where the world is going to free and progressive

societies, as opposed to countries totalitarian system, of course we're

not going to come out of the system. Therefore the question at the end of

the day has nothing to do with the way in what I am trying to do. The

people of Iran will have to make that decision. All I am standing for

is their opportunity to make the decision for themselves. And provide

the least costly way to come out of this issue. I think that civil

disobedience and nonviolence, which was the key position that I have

taken and I still abide by, is a less costly way to achieve the goal

as to other scenarios, which will involve violence and will not get us

democracy. That is what I stand involve violence and will not get us

At the end of the day, but the people decide. Reza Pahlavi, we

At the end of the day, but the to end there. Thank you very much.