Paul Greengrass - Film Director HARDtalk


Paul Greengrass - Film Director

Similar Content

Browse content similar to Paul Greengrass - Film Director. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur. What do we want from the

:00:10.:00:18.

movies? Judging from global box office returns, the answer is

:00:19.:00:23.

escapism, super heroes and awesome special effects. That is not how my

:00:24.:00:29.

guest today became and A-list director. Paul Greengrass makes

:00:30.:00:34.

torte films that are not always easy to watch. His biggest hits worthy --

:00:35.:00:49.

worthy Bourne movies. How does he juggle truth, art and

:00:50.:00:50.

entertainment? Paul Greengrass, welcome to

:00:51.:01:24.

HARDtalk. Thank you for having me. Let's start with escapism. There is

:01:25.:01:28.

a thought that that is what people go to the movies for. But it is not

:01:29.:01:33.

what you offer your audiences. You invite them to dig deep into the

:01:34.:01:38.

events and situations that seem they might rather avoid. Well, listen.

:01:39.:01:46.

The movie experience is lots of things wrapped up in one.

:01:47.:01:53.

Fundamentally, going to the movies is an entertainment choice. It is

:01:54.:02:00.

pointless to pretend it isn't. But within that, I still think you can

:02:01.:02:04.

make films, and they always have been made, incidentally, in any

:02:05.:02:08.

given year there are films that have engaged with real issues and the

:02:09.:02:15.

real world. The point is, for a healthy movie industry, you need to

:02:16.:02:20.

have good entertainment, interesting films, and personal films. Films

:02:21.:02:26.

about the world beyond. You need a mixed portfolio. You wouldn't deny

:02:27.:02:37.

that you are the sort of hard end of it. I don't mean hard in any way

:02:38.:02:42.

other than... It is difficult to sit in some of your movies and not feel

:02:43.:02:48.

uncomfortable. Anguished. Well, some of those films have dealt with

:02:49.:02:54.

difficult subjects. Personally, I don't like to make miserable films.

:02:55.:03:01.

I would hope that is not the case. What I have tried to do is make

:03:02.:03:11.

films that are popular. The Bourne movies were popcorn movies, Saturday

:03:12.:03:17.

night entertainment. Given where I come from... I come from a British

:03:18.:03:22.

current affairs documentary background. Inevitably, where you

:03:23.:03:30.

come from informs you will work. The Bourne movies, I try to group them

:03:31.:03:34.

into the real world. But they were escapism. I hope escapism with

:03:35.:03:44.

quality. The other movies are, in a way, extensions of the work I did in

:03:45.:03:51.

current affairs. They are about real events. You try to depict them as

:03:52.:03:56.

authentically as you can. But of course you have to make compromises

:03:57.:04:02.

and turn corners. Movies are not journalism. They are not history.

:04:03.:04:08.

But they do have a responsibility, I think, to be truthful. I do believe

:04:09.:04:18.

they can contain truth. Very important issues there. Definitely.

:04:19.:04:22.

At the heart of it, I would say. This is the important point. They

:04:23.:04:33.

can all learn their place in mainstream movie experiences.

:04:34.:04:35.

Audiences can come and see the Bourne movie and also see a film

:04:36.:04:43.

like United 93 or Captain Phillips. It is all part of the cinematic

:04:44.:04:49.

experience. Let's talk about the new release, Captain Phillips. This is a

:04:50.:04:53.

movie that is set in the world of Somali pirates. It tells the story

:04:54.:04:58.

of one US container ship which is hijacked by pirates. To what extent

:04:59.:05:07.

were you very aware of the need not to characterise this as a good guy

:05:08.:05:19.

entering the evildoers' lair. Yes, I was aware of that. But you have also

:05:20.:05:27.

got to be aware of creating moral equivalence. In other words, you

:05:28.:05:33.

have to paint a picture of these events that authentic, that conveys

:05:34.:05:40.

a truthful picture of, for instance, four young men from Somalia who go

:05:41.:05:46.

out with AK-47s and attacked a ship. It is based on the real story of an

:05:47.:05:53.

American ship captain who was taken by pirates. But of course his

:05:54.:05:56.

account of the affair is, by definition, all about his

:05:57.:06:00.

perspective. What you have done is take his story at them actually film

:06:01.:06:04.

it from two different perspectives, that of him and his crew, but then

:06:05.:06:08.

also the perspective that begins in Somalia. It is the process. It is

:06:09.:06:17.

the same in 93, the same in Bloody Sunday, and the same in my work in

:06:18.:06:23.

television. In other words, you start with a story, a chain of

:06:24.:06:28.

events, narrative, whatever it is, and in it are two things. Firstly,

:06:29.:06:37.

there are dramatic events with compelling characters. Also, there

:06:38.:06:40.

is something about those events, to my mind, that seems to offer

:06:41.:06:45.

meanings. Those meanings can often be contradictory and elusive. The

:06:46.:06:51.

process of film-making is to tell the story as simply as you can and

:06:52.:07:00.

with regard, true regard, for the facts, in order to explore what

:07:01.:07:04.

those meanings are. You don't start with the meanings. They emerge out

:07:05.:07:08.

of the telling of the story. Can I stop you now to have a bit of the

:07:09.:07:13.

story before our eyes. Let's look at a short clip from Captain Phillips,

:07:14.:07:17.

where we see use use those dual perspectives. Film from the

:07:18.:07:21.

freighter and also from the point of the Somali pirates.

:07:22.:07:27.

This is your final warning! Stop the ship!

:07:28.:07:44.

So, there we have a lot of action. Tempting, maybe, to see that as

:07:45.:08:35.

another genre thriller. But as the movie develops, it is incredibly

:08:36.:08:40.

intense. It is a character analysis of two men, the ship's captain,

:08:41.:08:47.

played by Tom Hanks, and the Somali pirate leader, an actor we have been

:08:48.:08:53.

introduced to. For you, is that more important, the up close, intense

:08:54.:08:59.

analysis of those characters? You have got to get the method clear.

:09:00.:09:04.

You start, in this case, with Richard Phillips are part of the

:09:05.:09:08.

story. His book is an account of his first person story with his wife.

:09:09.:09:14.

When I started make the film, I make a decision not to tell the wife's

:09:15.:09:19.

story. I wanted the story on the ocean. Then you take up a process of

:09:20.:09:25.

research, as you would on any story. As you did as a journalist.

:09:26.:09:30.

Definitely. But it is not journalism. But you have got to have

:09:31.:09:35.

that initial journalistic fact -based process. You need to know

:09:36.:09:41.

what has really happened. You are not just telling the story from one

:09:42.:09:45.

person's point of view. You are going to make a film out of it. They

:09:46.:09:52.

movie is different. But if you are going to make a movie ace on real

:09:53.:09:55.

events, you have to start with the real events. Otherwise you have got

:09:56.:09:59.

no basis for making judgements. How do you reflect all of the multiple

:10:00.:10:04.

points of view? That is the process. I understand that. You

:10:05.:10:11.

dramatise, but you have to use your imagination, to imagine yourself

:10:12.:10:15.

into the life and the values of Muse, the Somali pirate captain. In

:10:16.:10:21.

doing that, you sort of humanised him, in a way. I would hope I

:10:22.:10:29.

humanised him. But maybe you invite simply for him. The real captain of

:10:30.:10:34.

this, who has been talking about the movie, says he wants the world to

:10:35.:10:37.

understand, and these are his words, that this was a guy, Muse, the

:10:38.:10:43.

fictional version of the bloke, this was a guy who told me he had

:10:44.:10:46.

kidnapped and murdered another captain. He told me I was going to

:10:47.:10:53.

die in Somalia. Let's be clear, he is just a thug who doesn't care

:10:54.:10:57.

about other people. And the point is what? All of that is reflected in

:10:58.:11:00.

the film. What I'm talking about is this. You have got to avoid two

:11:01.:11:06.

things. You have got to avoid sympathising or creating moral

:11:07.:11:10.

equivalence, and you have got to avoid, in drama, demonising. Those

:11:11.:11:17.

are the two things you want to avoid. What you have got to get to

:11:18.:11:21.

is observing authenticity. In other words, you need a portrait of that

:11:22.:11:25.

young man that is truthful. In other words, that means a portrait of a

:11:26.:11:30.

criminal, because that is what they are. A ruthless criminal in gait

:11:31.:11:38.

environs and kidnap, all of which is amply reflected in this film. But

:11:39.:11:44.

also, understand what has given rise to those choices. In other words,

:11:45.:11:49.

the hopelessness and the hotchpotch of things that growing up in Somalia

:11:50.:11:56.

at that time would give you. In the end, you have something that is in

:11:57.:12:01.

the middle. It is not demonising and not sympathising. It is just

:12:02.:12:04.

truthful. In terms of what you are talking about with Richard Phillips,

:12:05.:12:08.

Richard Phillips repeatedly, and I was there when he saw the film, what

:12:09.:12:15.

he says is, you absolute nailed the portrait of those pirates. So let's

:12:16.:12:21.

be clear about that. That is his view. He thought that we absolutely

:12:22.:12:26.

nailed what they were like. Do your see yourself as a political

:12:27.:12:33.

film-maker? I don't, no. You have a sense that you have a scepticism

:12:34.:12:39.

about the powers that be, whether it be global capitalism, which is sort

:12:40.:12:44.

of a theme that runs under Captain Phillips, as a movie. You allude to

:12:45.:12:50.

the plight of the Somalis who can't face because of overfishing. Captain

:12:51.:12:53.

Phillips has to go through with his journey because of immense

:12:54.:12:57.

capitalist pressures on him. In other movies, you have looked at the

:12:58.:13:02.

way state power is exercised. There is a political scepticism to your

:13:03.:13:08.

film-making. I wouldn't put it like that, obviously. I think I have got

:13:09.:13:13.

a strong point of view, that is for sure. And so I should. Anybody who

:13:14.:13:18.

wants to make films need to have a strong point of view. You have to

:13:19.:13:23.

make your film as the product of your honest and clear point of view.

:13:24.:13:30.

Is that why you left documentaries? In the end, you have the facts and

:13:31.:13:35.

that is what you are presenting to the best of your ability. In film,

:13:36.:13:40.

you can, you have license, to manipulate and you have list -- life

:13:41.:13:47.

is to weave your message in. I don't agree with that. I think that is

:13:48.:13:51.

nonsense. I left documentaries because I had done them for ten

:13:52.:13:56.

years and I had always wanted to make films. That was my dream and

:13:57.:14:00.

that is what I did. I wanted to write and direct and make films. But

:14:01.:14:04.

the principles are the same. Not entirely. They are, because you are

:14:05.:14:10.

suggesting that if you move from documentaries, where the values are

:14:11.:14:14.

good, and in movies you can and it believe the truth. I don't accept

:14:15.:14:20.

that. I think there is truth you can get at journalistically. There is

:14:21.:14:23.

truth you can get that through the process of history. There is also

:14:24.:14:26.

truth that can be got at through movies, and that truth is truth of

:14:27.:14:34.

behaviour. It is complex. I'm not saying that truth is better or

:14:35.:14:38.

worse. They are different tools at getting at authenticity. You are

:14:39.:14:45.

suggesting that somewhere, movie-making is, by its nature, less

:14:46.:14:50.

truthful. I don't accept that. I don't think you could look at 100

:14:51.:14:53.

years of film-making and suggest that. In United 93, an intense

:14:54.:14:59.

portrait of what happened on that particular flight as it was taken by

:15:00.:15:04.

the hijackers on 9/11 and the passengers decided to fight back...

:15:05.:15:09.

We know what happened in the end. You have used a huge amount of

:15:10.:15:14.

research to recreate what you believe happened on board. But you

:15:15.:15:18.

have made some things up. There is a moment where the German passenger on

:15:19.:15:24.

board is seen to argue with the Americans on board about the wisdom

:15:25.:15:28.

of taking on the hijackers. He says, no, we shouldn't do it. We

:15:29.:15:35.

should negotiate. Take it easy. You made that up. You had no way of

:15:36.:15:43.

knowing. Here is the process of the film. It goes to how you get at

:15:44.:15:50.

truth. You can know a lot that there are things about certain events that

:15:51.:15:55.

you cannot know. I agree with you about that. But what acting can do,

:15:56.:16:01.

the critical thing here, what the actor can do and accompanying actors

:16:02.:16:07.

can do is to take you very close to what it must have been like. You

:16:08.:16:13.

have to set a process that enables actors' instincts to be explored. In

:16:14.:16:18.

that particular case, and what it means is each actor has to have the

:16:19.:16:22.

freedom to interpret that space as they see fit, within what can be

:16:23.:16:28.

known. We could know a lot but certain things we could not know.

:16:29.:16:34.

What that actor felt, he was a German actor, he felt very strongly

:16:35.:16:38.

that a German citizen would be guided by the German experiences of

:16:39.:16:44.

hijacks, which were that they reached successful conclusions and

:16:45.:16:50.

that they did land. But that is a huge arrogance to taking upon

:16:51.:16:54.

yourself the right to portray a real person. I think this guy was called

:16:55.:17:00.

Christian Adams. He was on the plane and his family were still alive. #

:17:01.:17:05.

still alive. I do not know if they liked or disliked the portrayal of

:17:06.:17:10.

him. The fact is, there is a huge arrogance in deciding to portray

:17:11.:17:16.

that person. I do not agree at all. You are trying to get to the truth

:17:17.:17:20.

of what that must have felt like and what meanings it would have had. I

:17:21.:17:24.

would defy anybody to look at that film and think it does not present

:17:25.:17:29.

an authentic portrait of what that must have been like. You're not

:17:30.:17:33.

telling me it is likely that nobody on that aeroplane would have had at

:17:34.:17:39.

the front of their mind, despite what they were being told, that this

:17:40.:17:43.

might end happily if we could just land. It is not just your film. Lots

:17:44.:17:50.

of fictional recreations of real-life events... The arrogance I

:17:51.:17:56.

think is the journalistic arrogance which says we are the only tool

:17:57.:18:00.

which can get at truth. That I do not agree with. If I may say, it is

:18:01.:18:07.

one of the problems that has led journalism, particularly at the

:18:08.:18:11.

BBC, into problems. You do not accept that there are other tools

:18:12.:18:15.

getting at the truth which is just as important. That does not say

:18:16.:18:21.

these methods, and you are right to interrogate me, and that is right.

:18:22.:18:28.

We are talking about real people and real lives and consequences. A final

:18:29.:18:31.

thought on this. Dennis Bingham has written book called Whose Lives Are

:18:32.:18:36.

They Anyway? It looks at the way by optics work. He says that the --

:18:37.:18:46.

within the public memory is that sometimes the film perception of a

:18:47.:18:49.

person or event forever supplants the real person. Would you accept

:18:50.:18:57.

that? It is a danger. It is a danger, of course. It is a reality.

:18:58.:19:02.

Movies have a powerful effect. But let us go back to United 93. You do

:19:03.:19:08.

not think that I made that film without speaking to each and every

:19:09.:19:12.

family, because I did. Each and every family signed a release

:19:13.:19:16.

including that to kill a family. They all saw the film as well. If

:19:17.:19:22.

what you were saying was true, would you not have thought that all those

:19:23.:19:26.

families would have objected? On the contrary, I think they look at that

:19:27.:19:32.

film, and by the way, those families come from very different backgrounds

:19:33.:19:35.

and nationalities and different political views, I think they all

:19:36.:19:40.

see that film, I would hope and that is minder standing from their

:19:41.:19:44.

reaction, as a testament to what happened on that plane. So far from

:19:45.:19:50.

its planting in a negative way, it gives people a powerful sense of

:19:51.:19:53.

what is fundamentally important, which is that 40 men and women in a

:19:54.:19:59.

very narrow space of time, some 20 minutes or so, how to process the

:20:00.:20:06.

post-911 world, whilst we were all sitting there thinking, what is this

:20:07.:20:11.

event about, they knew they had to process it and overcome the

:20:12.:20:15.

inevitable feeling of, we must not do anything because it will be OK.

:20:16.:20:20.

They had to process beyond that to the point of saying, no, this will

:20:21.:20:26.

not be OK. And then act. That is the picture that film portrays. A final

:20:27.:20:35.

point about that film. It is searingly realistic and part of the

:20:36.:20:39.

way it works is that you deliberately chose to use non-stars

:20:40.:20:45.

as actors. Some parts played well by the real people themselves, involved

:20:46.:20:50.

on that day. No stars whatsoever. Here you have made Captain Phillips,

:20:51.:20:55.

again about real events, tense and realistic. Using actors. Yes, using

:20:56.:21:04.

one of Hollywood's biggest stars, Tom Hanks. After United 93 you

:21:05.:21:09.

said, if passengers were betrayed by movie stars, you would not feel

:21:10.:21:12.

their ordinariness. If you do not understand the ordinariness, you

:21:13.:21:17.

cannot understand their courage. Why does not -- why does that not apply

:21:18.:21:22.

to Captain Phillips? Because the film is called Captain Phillips.

:21:23.:21:28.

Because you needed the big finance and studio behind it and it was a

:21:29.:21:34.

difficult pitch to sell? It was quite the reverse. He was already

:21:35.:21:40.

involved in the project. When you look at Tom Hanks, you think one of

:21:41.:21:45.

Hollywood's biggest A-listers. What I take from that film, I think that

:21:46.:21:54.

what they will find in that film is a sublime and powerful piece of

:21:55.:21:58.

screen acting. That is what I find out of it. Also, what is interesting

:21:59.:22:04.

is that it is a sublime piece of acting by a great, great film actor

:22:05.:22:09.

and an equally powerful performance by a young man who is just embarking

:22:10.:22:15.

on his acting career. That is an interesting relationship and that is

:22:16.:22:18.

what the film is about. The relationship between the two, which

:22:19.:22:25.

is informed by the movie star and the first time actor. That is why I

:22:26.:22:30.

did it that way. Before we end I want to lift your eyes to a wider

:22:31.:22:35.

horizon and think about the movie-making business. You have been

:22:36.:22:38.

in it for a long time. How difficult is it to win the financing, the

:22:39.:22:42.

backing, to get the marketing guys on board and to get all the

:22:43.:22:46.

paraphernalia on your side and these days still stay very loyal to your

:22:47.:22:51.

own values and principles and make what you want to make? It is always

:22:52.:23:02.

more possible than you would think. I have been very blessed. I was

:23:03.:23:06.

blessed when I worked in television here, as I could do what I wanted.

:23:07.:23:12.

It is the same there. Clearly, it is a difficult environment. And a money

:23:13.:23:19.

driven environment. It is commercial cinema. You have made some widely

:23:20.:23:25.

acclaimed movies but you are known best for the two movies within the

:23:26.:23:30.

Bourne franchise. When they made the fourth Bourne movie, you did not

:23:31.:23:36.

direct it. Did you want to step away from the franchise industry? Yes,

:23:37.:23:41.

they did ask me and I thought I had taken it as far as I could. Were you

:23:42.:23:48.

bored with it? No, on the contrary. I love the character but there is a

:23:49.:23:54.

limit to how many times you can operate within one franchise. It is

:23:55.:23:57.

one character, the same character. I had made two films. There are only

:23:58.:24:03.

so many movies you can make in a lifetime. If there was to be a

:24:04.:24:08.

Bourne 5, would you do it? No, I would not do it. Universal and I

:24:09.:24:16.

have had long discussions. It has been going on for three or four

:24:17.:24:20.

years now. I wish them well and I'm so glad I did the two films I did.

:24:21.:24:26.

I'm very proud of them. We will end there. Paul Greengrass, thank you

:24:27.:24:29.

very much indeed for being on HARDtalk.

:24:30.:24:32.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS