Pavel Khodorkovsky - President, Institute of Modern Russia HARDtalk

still searching for possible survivors.

Now it is time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk, I am Stephen

Sackur. Vladimir Putin rules Russia with ruthless efficiency, opponents

and potential rivals know they are engaged in a dangerous game. For

proof, they need look no further than the fate of Mikhail

Khodorkovsky. Once Russia's richest man, an oligarch who crossed the

Kremlin and has been a prisoner ever since. My guest today is his son,

Pavel Khodorkovsky. Pavel Khodorkovsky, welcome to

HARDtalk. Thank you for inviting me. Your father was arrested and has

since been detained in 2003. Is it fair to say that that moment of his

arrest changed your life forever? It certainly was a big shock. My father

and I saw each other last one month before his arrest. He was on a

business trip to the US, stopped by my college to see how I had settled

in. You were just 18. I was just 18, I had just come to the college to

study at the university, and one of our last evenings together was in

Boston. We talked about what was about to happen. And he said to you,

what? That he feared that he was in a very dangerous place in Russia? He

didn't really use the word fear. In fact, we didn't talk about it up

until our last ride together to the airport. Because both him and I knew

what was going on. His business partner, Platon Lebedev, was already

in jail. We decided to just enjoy each other's company. On the ride to

the airport I asked him what was about to happen. He said, the last

thing that the government has left to do. That is to arrest me. He

could see it coming. He could see it coming, but he was very calm about

it. I just wonder whether there was a part of you, in the midst of all

the difficulties you faced over the last ten years, that was a bit angry

with him for taking the choice to go back when he could have stayed in

the US and avoided imprisonment. I have two feelings, really. One of

anger and agitation, maybe, that my father made the choice he did. But

the other is really disappointed with myself, because I had an

opportunity to try to talk him out of going back to Russia and I

didn't. I didn't, because my father has always been a very strong

person, and he described the coming events and his possible arrest with

such calmness, that I thought, who am I to try to convince him not to

go there? Of course, I blame myself for that. I want to come back to

what happened when he went back. But I want to ask you if you are in

touch with him right now, and what sort of state he is in today. We are

in touch. Now, for the past few years, we have been more in touch

than ever before, because he is now in a different prison colony in

Russia, which actually allows phone calls. So he was able to call his

family every Saturday for about ten minutes. It is the same across the

entire penitentiary system, that is all you get. One phone call a week,

but it has really put us in touch. Before that it was only letters. I

know he was for a long period in a prison in the Far East in Siberia,

and now he is up north near the Finnish border, nobody, I think,

thinks that the Russian prison regimes are easy, but what are

conditions for him, and what is his health like? The conditions are much

the same for any other prisoner. I'm sure people have heard horror

stories about the Russian penal colonies, especially in the last few

months. There are many in Russia, some are better some are worse. But

my father has always been in so`called red zones. There are black

zones, controlled by criminal authorities, and red zones that are

controlled tightly by the official administration. The authorities have

been very particular about placing him in red zones, so he has down to

the last letter of the penal code conditions. How is his spirit? His

spirit is strong. He is very happy to talk to me, and he is very upbeat

when we talk on the phone. Back in 2010, when the new verdict was

announced, he realised that he may be in jail for an unlimited amount

of time. So, he has pushed away that idea that there is X number of years

left before his release. In principle, he could and should be

released with current parole regulations, in the August of 2014.

But you are telling me that he doesn't allow himself to believe

that is going to happen. He doesn't allow himself to think about it,

because that has proven false before. My father was supposed to be

released on parole first in around 2007 when he became eligible to

apply for parole. Then, his first sentence was supposed to expire in

2011. You talk about the second trial. Let us now dig into the

detail of what your father is convicted for, why he is in prison.

Of course, there have been two trials, convicted both times, and in

essence trial one was about tax evasion and fraud, trial two was

about misappropriation of funding, theft, essentially, from his own

company, theft of thousands of rubles worth of assets. You have a

man who, to many Russians, sounds like the worst of the oligarchs. A

man who is utterly greedy, selfish, and committed to nobody's interest

but his own. That is certainly the image that the government wants to

project onto the society. But public opinion has changed dramatically.

Largely because of the second trial. You would accept that the first

role, as the European Court of Human Right recently concluded, was, in

essence, fair ` the judge was not biased, and there was a serious case

against your father. Would you accept that? No, I would disagree

with that. The European Court of Human Right, while examining the

verdict and the pre`trial detention that my father has gone through,

concluded that there were procedural violations. It stopped short of

calling the trial politically motivated, it highlighted the fact

that there were other reasons that were pursued in sentencing my

father. You cannot deny ` obviously you were a child, and you moved to

the US before he was arrested ` that you have obviously researched it

very closely. You know what your father was involved in. At the time

he acquired his own unimaginable wealth ` and he was Russia's richest

man, worth US$15 billion on paper ` he acquired that wealth by taking

assets that belonged to the state at knockdown prices, through often

rigged auction processes, where he and cronies close to Boris Yeltsin

did deals for each other, and how can you justify how he acquired much

of his wealth? I think how he acquired Yukos back in the 90s has

been declared. At the time, I was only 11 years old, but my

information comes from the same books that were written and

documentaries that were filmed. I should say that my father himself

admitted that he does hold certain responsibilities morally, but what

had been done in the 90s had been done in accordance with the law at

the time. It is interesting you say that your father acknowledged that

there is some sort of moral issues here. I just wonder, going back to

that key decision he took to go back to Russia, whether you feel there

was a sense in which he felt partly a duty to go back to atone for the

riches that he had taken from that country. My father took a sense that

you could not abandon people. His business partner, Platon Lebedev,

who was imprisoned a couple of months before my father's arrest,

was his close friend. So he felt an obligation to go back. Also, he felt

that he had a good chance of actually defending his reputation

and standing up for himself, and for Yukos company in court. Of course,

he didn't know at the time, the whole judicial system would be

turned subservient to the government. Another point you have

just made was the sense in which public attitudes in Russia changed

over time, I just wonder if that is because your father himself has

changed over time. Look at things he wrote before he was in prison, when

his business career was unbelievably successful, and he was an all`out

advocate for capitalism, for business read in tooth and claw, I

think he wrote a book which was in essence a praise to the God of

money. These days, he sounds very different. In court in recent times

he has made a point of saying that he is not an ideal man, but he has

very strong ideals. He said not too long ago, I do not want to die in

prison, but if I have to, if it is needed for me to do that to stand up

for the values, the ideals that I have, I will do it. Has he changed?

He certainly has. Prison has certainly changed him as a person.

Before 2003 he was always a very strict man. A man that viewed people

that he worked with primarily for their professional qualities. He was

ruthless. He was ruthless. He ignored emotions. In prison he was

exposed to so many stories, some of which he describes in his writings,

that he really came to become more emotional. From an analyst of

Russia, who knows your father's story, he says that your father's

fight has been for his business, not for the principles of freedom. How

do you respond to that? Well, my father's fight was for the company

when he went in, but also, when he was arrested, let's not forget about

the added motivation that was provided to the government. It was

not only about taking away and renationalising Yukos oil company,

it was also about draining the opposition of financial resources

and exemplifying the case of my father. But the rules of the game

have changed, and business can no longer finance the political

opposition. That is it gets very interesting. Because your father,

and we are talking about him evolving as a man, he evolved as a

business leader who was only interested in seeing money. He

seemed to evolve into someone who put a lot of money and organisations

to modernise civic society, funded opposition parties, bought a

newspaper which gave him a position of power and influence. Was he not

extraordinarily naive, or maybe arrogant, to think that he could do

that? To challenge the supremacy of the Kremlin and Vladimir Putin, and

get away with it? He was naive and idealistic. If you remember, my

father has gone through that process of transition from Soviet state to a

fledgling democracy. So, he really thought at the end of 2003 when he

was making a decision to go back, he thought that a lot of things the

government still controls, but he at least thought that we do have this

judiciary that is independent, that he could rely on. Do you think he

knew that that was what was coming up inevitably in his life? That's

the difference between the two men. For my father, it was not personal.

Vladimir Putin said it has never been personal. It was all about an

economic case that is what he said in 2003. He says look at, Bernard

Madoff, Madoff, he got 150 years in prison. Your father got off lightly.

Completely different cases. The personal against general, attitude

towards the case, my father did challenge the government on the

issue of corruption. That is when it became personal for Putin. A lot of

people in his close circle that unfortunately took part in those

deals. My father pointed out to them. Final character analysis point

from you, you say he challenged Putin on corruption. There was a

famous moment in 2003 on Russian television, your father was seen to

tell Putin directly in a public forum, $30 billion worth of

corruption is happening in the state today. He seemed to be saying, the

fault is ours, yours and mine. It was embarrassing to President Putin

to have that happen in public. Your father, again, exhibited arrogance

doing that? That is really the difference between the new sort of

way of thinking, of addressing the issues head on, recognising your

responsibility for parts of it, and being able to move forward. My

father ultimately did go into jail, thinking he was fighting for a

bigger cause than himself. For political pluralism, for a bigger

future for the country. Vladimir Putin's perspective at the time was

different. It was all about re`establishing the supremacy of the

country. He did not want anyone standing in his way. Vladimir Putin

is still in power, two terms as president, then prime minister, now

president again, could be president until 2024. Given that reality, do

you believe your father will be released in August 2014? Actually,

yes. I'm very, very optimistic. I am very much looking forward to seeing

my father in August next year. I have to say you have changed your

mind. You did say, only a year ago, you feared that your father would

never be released as long as Vladimir Putin was in power. That is

true. Things have changed in Russia. There is a lot going on

domestically, there are other things that the government is worried

about. I think the time is right, it has been ten years. Everybody moved

on. The time is right to release my father. I'm really looking forward

to it. You say things have changed, it seems to me, a lot of things have

changed to a more authoritarian direction. One can look at the fate

of the Pussy Riot protesters, one can look at the charges currently

levelled against Alexei Navalny, the leading figure for the Opposition.

One can conclude that more than ever before, Vladimir Putin does not want

to contemplate serious challenges to his supremacy. Your father

represents, perhaps, the most serious challenge to his supremacy.

That is where I think the major change has taken place. I do not

mean it in a positive way, where things have improved. A couple of

years ago, it was only my father that was on the forefront of

presenting the most political risks, or at least, that is how the Russian

government used to think about it. After 2011, after the protests we

had in many different cities in Russia, the whole field of political

opposition started reviving. Now we have different people challenging

the Kremlin, they occupy the brain space. The government has to deal

with it. That is why I believe they have many other new pressing issues.

Releasing my father would not necessarily be the worst thing for

them to do. Because you have been in the United States for the the last

ten years and the western capitals, you have spent a lot of time asking

the voices in power in the West to lend their support to your campaign

to get your father released. Do you feel that President Obama, who

famously pressed the reset button with Putin at the start his second

term, whether you think Obama and others have provided the support on

this issue that you wanted? It really depends. My goal has always

been very simple. To try to get my father out of jail as soon as

possible. My ask is also very direct: Please help me to get the

message across to the Russian government that it has been too long

and I want my father out. With the greatest respect, that is your

perspective, the perspective seen in Russia and London is that Russia is

one of the great energy powers of the world. Russia retains a right of

veto at the UN Security Council, it is locked in the power system, will

not the fate of your father get in the way of that? That is the

disappointing thing about politics. A lot of times practical matters of

diplomacy get in the way of principled issues like human rights.

So you are disappointed, for example with President Obama? I think the US

government and President Obama have been very naive about the sort of

negotiating opportunities and overall direction of Russia. Let's

talk about the future. You do speak to your father. I dare say that

Russian government wants to know the answer to this question. If he is

released in 2014, as you believe he will be, will he stay in Russia and

fight for those values he has espoused for a long time, or will he

walk away and embrace exile? I think that my father will need to make the

decision of what he wants to do once he gets out of prison himself. But

what I do know for myself is that it will be my first priority and my

most important job, to try to convince him to leave Russia. I have

not seen him for ten years. He has never seen my daughter. We need to

reunite our family. The most important thing for me, is to make

sure nothing stands in the way of that. In 2003, he knew what was at

stake and he decided to fight. What if he decides to fight again inside

his own country? I do not believe, and I'm really, really hoping that

nothing would change, I don't believe that is his plan. Have you

asked him directly? I did. He said I have a lot of debts that I need to

pay to my family. What about literal debts, your father used to be the

richest man in all Russia. I do not know what he has today, but he could

launch legal action to recover some of the assets he believes were

stolen from him. Is he going to do that? There are still people inside

the Kremlin who fear that. It is very simple. My father has moved on.

He turned the page on that life. He wants to be with his family. He

wants to continue working on the sort of programmes he worked on

before with the Open Russia Foundation. His business life is

behind him. He will not try to get back any of the assets. There are

many close watchers of the Kremlin who say there is no way he will be

released as long as Vladimir Putin sits in the Kremlin. Is that not the

truth? I really want to believe that is not the case today. What I'm

really looking forward to, as an indicator, is the May of next year

actually. A couple of months before my father is released. His friend

and former business partner and his co`defendant, same case, same

charges, he will be released on the 2nd of May. If he sees freedom, so

will my father. We will watch as well. Thank you for being on

HARDtalk.