Pavel Khodorkovsky - President, Institute of Modern Russia HARDtalk


Pavel Khodorkovsky - President, Institute of Modern Russia

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still searching for possible survivors.

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Now it is time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk, I am Stephen

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Sackur. Vladimir Putin rules Russia with ruthless efficiency, opponents

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and potential rivals know they are engaged in a dangerous game. For

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proof, they need look no further than the fate of Mikhail

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Khodorkovsky. Once Russia's richest man, an oligarch who crossed the

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Kremlin and has been a prisoner ever since. My guest today is his son,

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Pavel Khodorkovsky. Pavel Khodorkovsky, welcome to

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HARDtalk. Thank you for inviting me. Your father was arrested and has

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since been detained in 2003. Is it fair to say that that moment of his

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arrest changed your life forever? It certainly was a big shock. My father

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and I saw each other last one month before his arrest. He was on a

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business trip to the US, stopped by my college to see how I had settled

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in. You were just 18. I was just 18, I had just come to the college to

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study at the university, and one of our last evenings together was in

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Boston. We talked about what was about to happen. And he said to you,

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what? That he feared that he was in a very dangerous place in Russia? He

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didn't really use the word fear. In fact, we didn't talk about it up

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until our last ride together to the airport. Because both him and I knew

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what was going on. His business partner, Platon Lebedev, was already

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in jail. We decided to just enjoy each other's company. On the ride to

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the airport I asked him what was about to happen. He said, the last

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thing that the government has left to do. That is to arrest me. He

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could see it coming. He could see it coming, but he was very calm about

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it. I just wonder whether there was a part of you, in the midst of all

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the difficulties you faced over the last ten years, that was a bit angry

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with him for taking the choice to go back when he could have stayed in

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the US and avoided imprisonment. I have two feelings, really. One of

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anger and agitation, maybe, that my father made the choice he did. But

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the other is really disappointed with myself, because I had an

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opportunity to try to talk him out of going back to Russia and I

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didn't. I didn't, because my father has always been a very strong

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person, and he described the coming events and his possible arrest with

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such calmness, that I thought, who am I to try to convince him not to

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go there? Of course, I blame myself for that. I want to come back to

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what happened when he went back. But I want to ask you if you are in

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touch with him right now, and what sort of state he is in today. We are

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in touch. Now, for the past few years, we have been more in touch

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than ever before, because he is now in a different prison colony in

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Russia, which actually allows phone calls. So he was able to call his

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family every Saturday for about ten minutes. It is the same across the

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entire penitentiary system, that is all you get. One phone call a week,

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but it has really put us in touch. Before that it was only letters. I

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know he was for a long period in a prison in the Far East in Siberia,

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and now he is up north near the Finnish border, nobody, I think,

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thinks that the Russian prison regimes are easy, but what are

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conditions for him, and what is his health like? The conditions are much

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the same for any other prisoner. I'm sure people have heard horror

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stories about the Russian penal colonies, especially in the last few

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months. There are many in Russia, some are better some are worse. But

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my father has always been in so`called red zones. There are black

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zones, controlled by criminal authorities, and red zones that are

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controlled tightly by the official administration. The authorities have

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been very particular about placing him in red zones, so he has down to

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the last letter of the penal code conditions. How is his spirit? His

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spirit is strong. He is very happy to talk to me, and he is very upbeat

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when we talk on the phone. Back in 2010, when the new verdict was

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announced, he realised that he may be in jail for an unlimited amount

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of time. So, he has pushed away that idea that there is X number of years

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left before his release. In principle, he could and should be

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released with current parole regulations, in the August of 2014.

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But you are telling me that he doesn't allow himself to believe

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that is going to happen. He doesn't allow himself to think about it,

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because that has proven false before. My father was supposed to be

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released on parole first in around 2007 when he became eligible to

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apply for parole. Then, his first sentence was supposed to expire in

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2011. You talk about the second trial. Let us now dig into the

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detail of what your father is convicted for, why he is in prison.

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Of course, there have been two trials, convicted both times, and in

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essence trial one was about tax evasion and fraud, trial two was

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about misappropriation of funding, theft, essentially, from his own

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company, theft of thousands of rubles worth of assets. You have a

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man who, to many Russians, sounds like the worst of the oligarchs. A

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man who is utterly greedy, selfish, and committed to nobody's interest

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but his own. That is certainly the image that the government wants to

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project onto the society. But public opinion has changed dramatically.

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Largely because of the second trial. You would accept that the first

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role, as the European Court of Human Right recently concluded, was, in

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essence, fair ` the judge was not biased, and there was a serious case

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against your father. Would you accept that? No, I would disagree

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with that. The European Court of Human Right, while examining the

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verdict and the pre`trial detention that my father has gone through,

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concluded that there were procedural violations. It stopped short of

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calling the trial politically motivated, it highlighted the fact

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that there were other reasons that were pursued in sentencing my

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father. You cannot deny ` obviously you were a child, and you moved to

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the US before he was arrested ` that you have obviously researched it

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very closely. You know what your father was involved in. At the time

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he acquired his own unimaginable wealth ` and he was Russia's richest

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man, worth US$15 billion on paper ` he acquired that wealth by taking

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assets that belonged to the state at knockdown prices, through often

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rigged auction processes, where he and cronies close to Boris Yeltsin

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did deals for each other, and how can you justify how he acquired much

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of his wealth? I think how he acquired Yukos back in the 90s has

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been declared. At the time, I was only 11 years old, but my

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information comes from the same books that were written and

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documentaries that were filmed. I should say that my father himself

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admitted that he does hold certain responsibilities morally, but what

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had been done in the 90s had been done in accordance with the law at

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the time. It is interesting you say that your father acknowledged that

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there is some sort of moral issues here. I just wonder, going back to

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that key decision he took to go back to Russia, whether you feel there

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was a sense in which he felt partly a duty to go back to atone for the

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riches that he had taken from that country. My father took a sense that

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you could not abandon people. His business partner, Platon Lebedev,

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who was imprisoned a couple of months before my father's arrest,

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was his close friend. So he felt an obligation to go back. Also, he felt

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that he had a good chance of actually defending his reputation

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and standing up for himself, and for Yukos company in court. Of course,

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he didn't know at the time, the whole judicial system would be

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turned subservient to the government. Another point you have

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just made was the sense in which public attitudes in Russia changed

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over time, I just wonder if that is because your father himself has

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changed over time. Look at things he wrote before he was in prison, when

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his business career was unbelievably successful, and he was an all`out

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advocate for capitalism, for business read in tooth and claw, I

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think he wrote a book which was in essence a praise to the God of

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money. These days, he sounds very different. In court in recent times

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he has made a point of saying that he is not an ideal man, but he has

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very strong ideals. He said not too long ago, I do not want to die in

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prison, but if I have to, if it is needed for me to do that to stand up

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for the values, the ideals that I have, I will do it. Has he changed?

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He certainly has. Prison has certainly changed him as a person.

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Before 2003 he was always a very strict man. A man that viewed people

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that he worked with primarily for their professional qualities. He was

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ruthless. He was ruthless. He ignored emotions. In prison he was

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exposed to so many stories, some of which he describes in his writings,

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that he really came to become more emotional. From an analyst of

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Russia, who knows your father's story, he says that your father's

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fight has been for his business, not for the principles of freedom. How

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do you respond to that? Well, my father's fight was for the company

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when he went in, but also, when he was arrested, let's not forget about

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the added motivation that was provided to the government. It was

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not only about taking away and renationalising Yukos oil company,

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it was also about draining the opposition of financial resources

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and exemplifying the case of my father. But the rules of the game

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have changed, and business can no longer finance the political

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opposition. That is it gets very interesting. Because your father,

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and we are talking about him evolving as a man, he evolved as a

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business leader who was only interested in seeing money. He

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seemed to evolve into someone who put a lot of money and organisations

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to modernise civic society, funded opposition parties, bought a

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newspaper which gave him a position of power and influence. Was he not

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extraordinarily naive, or maybe arrogant, to think that he could do

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that? To challenge the supremacy of the Kremlin and Vladimir Putin, and

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get away with it? He was naive and idealistic. If you remember, my

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father has gone through that process of transition from Soviet state to a

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fledgling democracy. So, he really thought at the end of 2003 when he

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was making a decision to go back, he thought that a lot of things the

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government still controls, but he at least thought that we do have this

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judiciary that is independent, that he could rely on. Do you think he

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knew that that was what was coming up inevitably in his life? That's

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the difference between the two men. For my father, it was not personal.

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Vladimir Putin said it has never been personal. It was all about an

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economic case that is what he said in 2003. He says look at, Bernard

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Madoff, Madoff, he got 150 years in prison. Your father got off lightly.

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Completely different cases. The personal against general, attitude

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towards the case, my father did challenge the government on the

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issue of corruption. That is when it became personal for Putin. A lot of

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people in his close circle that unfortunately took part in those

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deals. My father pointed out to them. Final character analysis point

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from you, you say he challenged Putin on corruption. There was a

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famous moment in 2003 on Russian television, your father was seen to

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tell Putin directly in a public forum, $30 billion worth of

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corruption is happening in the state today. He seemed to be saying, the

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fault is ours, yours and mine. It was embarrassing to President Putin

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to have that happen in public. Your father, again, exhibited arrogance

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doing that? That is really the difference between the new sort of

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way of thinking, of addressing the issues head on, recognising your

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responsibility for parts of it, and being able to move forward. My

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father ultimately did go into jail, thinking he was fighting for a

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bigger cause than himself. For political pluralism, for a bigger

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future for the country. Vladimir Putin's perspective at the time was

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different. It was all about re`establishing the supremacy of the

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country. He did not want anyone standing in his way. Vladimir Putin

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is still in power, two terms as president, then prime minister, now

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president again, could be president until 2024. Given that reality, do

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you believe your father will be released in August 2014? Actually,

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yes. I'm very, very optimistic. I am very much looking forward to seeing

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my father in August next year. I have to say you have changed your

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mind. You did say, only a year ago, you feared that your father would

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never be released as long as Vladimir Putin was in power. That is

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true. Things have changed in Russia. There is a lot going on

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domestically, there are other things that the government is worried

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about. I think the time is right, it has been ten years. Everybody moved

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on. The time is right to release my father. I'm really looking forward

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to it. You say things have changed, it seems to me, a lot of things have

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changed to a more authoritarian direction. One can look at the fate

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of the Pussy Riot protesters, one can look at the charges currently

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levelled against Alexei Navalny, the leading figure for the Opposition.

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One can conclude that more than ever before, Vladimir Putin does not want

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to contemplate serious challenges to his supremacy. Your father

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represents, perhaps, the most serious challenge to his supremacy.

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That is where I think the major change has taken place. I do not

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mean it in a positive way, where things have improved. A couple of

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years ago, it was only my father that was on the forefront of

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presenting the most political risks, or at least, that is how the Russian

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government used to think about it. After 2011, after the protests we

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had in many different cities in Russia, the whole field of political

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opposition started reviving. Now we have different people challenging

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the Kremlin, they occupy the brain space. The government has to deal

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with it. That is why I believe they have many other new pressing issues.

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Releasing my father would not necessarily be the worst thing for

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them to do. Because you have been in the United States for the the last

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ten years and the western capitals, you have spent a lot of time asking

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the voices in power in the West to lend their support to your campaign

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to get your father released. Do you feel that President Obama, who

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famously pressed the reset button with Putin at the start his second

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term, whether you think Obama and others have provided the support on

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this issue that you wanted? It really depends. My goal has always

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been very simple. To try to get my father out of jail as soon as

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possible. My ask is also very direct: Please help me to get the

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message across to the Russian government that it has been too long

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and I want my father out. With the greatest respect, that is your

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perspective, the perspective seen in Russia and London is that Russia is

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one of the great energy powers of the world. Russia retains a right of

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veto at the UN Security Council, it is locked in the power system, will

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not the fate of your father get in the way of that? That is the

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disappointing thing about politics. A lot of times practical matters of

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diplomacy get in the way of principled issues like human rights.

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So you are disappointed, for example with President Obama? I think the US

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government and President Obama have been very naive about the sort of

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negotiating opportunities and overall direction of Russia. Let's

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talk about the future. You do speak to your father. I dare say that

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Russian government wants to know the answer to this question. If he is

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released in 2014, as you believe he will be, will he stay in Russia and

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fight for those values he has espoused for a long time, or will he

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walk away and embrace exile? I think that my father will need to make the

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decision of what he wants to do once he gets out of prison himself. But

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what I do know for myself is that it will be my first priority and my

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most important job, to try to convince him to leave Russia. I have

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not seen him for ten years. He has never seen my daughter. We need to

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reunite our family. The most important thing for me, is to make

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sure nothing stands in the way of that. In 2003, he knew what was at

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stake and he decided to fight. What if he decides to fight again inside

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his own country? I do not believe, and I'm really, really hoping that

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nothing would change, I don't believe that is his plan. Have you

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asked him directly? I did. He said I have a lot of debts that I need to

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pay to my family. What about literal debts, your father used to be the

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richest man in all Russia. I do not know what he has today, but he could

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launch legal action to recover some of the assets he believes were

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stolen from him. Is he going to do that? There are still people inside

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the Kremlin who fear that. It is very simple. My father has moved on.

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He turned the page on that life. He wants to be with his family. He

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wants to continue working on the sort of programmes he worked on

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before with the Open Russia Foundation. His business life is

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behind him. He will not try to get back any of the assets. There are

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many close watchers of the Kremlin who say there is no way he will be

:23:49.:23:52.

released as long as Vladimir Putin sits in the Kremlin. Is that not the

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truth? I really want to believe that is not the case today. What I'm

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really looking forward to, as an indicator, is the May of next year

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actually. A couple of months before my father is released. His friend

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and former business partner and his co`defendant, same case, same

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charges, he will be released on the 2nd of May. If he sees freedom, so

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will my father. We will watch as well. Thank you for being on

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HARDtalk.

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