Emma Bonino - Foreign Minister, Italy HARDtalk

others. Those are the latest headlines. Now

it is time for HARDtalk. We have a specially invited audience

of 100 inspiring women from all over the world, and our special guest

today on HARDtalk is one of the world's best`known female

politicians, former EU Commissioner and Italy's Foreign Minister, Emma

Bonino. For many years she has been a bold and outspoken activist for

numerous causes, all with the same aim of trying to fight injustice,

discrimination, poverty, disease and hunger. But when she looks around

her native Italy, though she feel that the progressives like her have

lost the fight against sexism and racism?

Welcome to HARDtalk. Italy is one of the murdered a ban is to nations in

so why is it such a tough place to be a woman? `` the most advanced.

Because of tradition, the Conservative political environment.

We are also a vast Lee Catholic country. It has a Conservative

approach. But still there have been a lot of improvements. If I look

backward 40 years ago, when I was a young girl, I cannot even recognise

my country. So there is hope and room for improvement. But you

mention those factors, but what about the Berlusconi factor? I am

not so much concerned about the private life of a president

Berlusconi. What is a bigger concern to me is the perceived bid female

stereotyping. `` pervasive. It has become so entrenched. And Silvio

Berlusconi operates the media. But also public. So that is what

concerns me very much. You say there have in improvements. If you look at

the World Economic Forum 's, the gender gap survey, Italy ranks at

71, much lower than other comp report EU nations. It is true. So it

is more sexist. I would say more traditional. On top of that, it

applies in politics and in many others at theirs, and just because

we are here, how many presidents or director generals are female in BBC?

Not one. Emma Bonino, it looks at access for women in health,

education, not just politics. The regional league. But you talk about

the fact the media has rarely contributed to the sexual

objectification of women. A summit in New York, which you attended, the

Italian actress said, that we do not have the mall role models to which

we can aspire to. The winning model is a young woman who is available to

be corrupted, go to parties and the next two powerful man, and next day

she is on the cover of all the magazines, she gets interviewed on

TV and gets a fashion campaign, she becomes a star. That is the

stereotyping that I was talking about. It is giving a terrible

message to young girls and men, as if being a woman can only comply to

this model. That has been my fight. Luckily I am not alone. There is a

move in Italy that wants to overcome this stereotype and I am happy to

say, that since then, things have been changing, V K Lee... On state

television, which is powerful `` portraying a different kind of

model. But a lot of people wander, and I do not want to go on about

Berlusconi, but a lot of people wonder whether somebody like him or

the kind of comments that he made could be have in re`elected five

times, Prime Minister for seven years, let me remind you of a couple

of things that he said. In 2010, he said one reason for investing in

Italy was because we have beautiful secretaries in Italy, supposed

girls. In April 2011, when asked whether they would like to have sex

with me, 30% of women said yes, the other 70% said, what, again? That is

the Prime Minister saying that. But the other question is, that is so

entrenched in the sort of culture in my country that he has been ill at

it. We have to macro things to fight. It is not one person. It is a

culture that comes a long way. Do you accept that another major

European country... It would not have happened? That a Prime Minister

in power at time... It is difficult to say. But contrary to this, this

is also the country, that thanks to my party and others, got the law on

divorce back in the 70s, legalised abortion back in the 70s. You were

instrumental in both of those. You have been a very outspoken person.

So it means there is room for changing things. In democracies

sometime, sometimes we go forward and sometimes we go backward. But

you have to nurture what you really want. So it is not an easy task,

nowhere in the world. In 2001, 2009, you were so cross about the lack of

political space that the radicals like you were getting, that you went

on hunger strike. You say women are fighting against this in Italy, but

bitterly to lead. It was only in March that you had 100,000 women go

on a protest march. That is a bit late in the day, is it? It is late

but it is coming back. I prefer to see the positive side of it. I look

backward, I see a period of great innovation, the 70s and 80s, I see a

period of sort of everybody sleeping, in some way, even the

feminist movement went a bit quiet. Now we are back. I think that is

very important. I prefer to see the positive side. All my energy is to

push forward. In fairy we had general elections in Italy. ``

February. He leads a grand coalition. Because nobody won. As

you said, things have got better. Women in Parliament went up to 30%.

Seven out of the 21 Cabinet ministers are now women. But the

fact of the matter is, it is getting better but from a fairly low base.

Sure. If we were far ahead, I would spend less energy on these kind of

issues. But it is still a puff place for a woman to be in power. The

Speaker of the lower chamber in Parliament... Is there a place where

there is an easy life all were men in power? If you know it, in a bid

for me. `` for women. She gets threats, images of her being raped,

her throat being slipped. Where did you have a major political figure

getting that kind of. Not. But we have a brave minister, who get

insulted or everyday and reacts back. She is friendly, making a

major change in my country. You mention Cecile, who was born in the

Democratic Republic of Congo, made minister of integration. But look

what has happened to her, she goes to public meetings, she has bananas

thrown at her. You had the Italian MEP, he said that she wants to

impose her tribal traditions from the Congo, she seems like a great

housekeeper but not a governor in a start. August 2013, Roberto, the

current vice president of Italy, addressing the rally for the

Northern league party, I love animals, but when I see pic is of

her, I cannot but think of the features of an orangutan,

her, I cannot but think of the the reaction was overwhelming. That

is appalling. It is appalling. He apologised. What happened to him?

Nothing. But the reaction has been overwhelming. She is paying a very

tough price to make the culture of my country change. I really want to

thank her for the courage... And because she is brave. But she is

making my country change. Is she really making your country change? I

put it you that if any politician made such comments, orangutan, for

instance, housekeeper, it would be the end of his her career. Let's

hope it will be. Do you accept that Italy... I am not sure. I have seen

other politicians, unfortunately, attacking the Roma community in a

very insulting way. I am saying that bad behaviour has to bring a more

vocal reaction. That is what is happening. I see it as encroachment

to go Paul Wade. What happened in the press? In the press, and in

public opinion, there was a fantastic reaction that these things

are not tolerable. I do prefer to have problems in public, and I

prefer to have public confrontation, instead of a sort of quietness, in

which nobody dares to stand for it. So at the end of it, I strongly

believe that as in many other countries, particularly in the

Mediterranean, we have a long way to go. But let's not think that nothing

will come for free. When you are talking like that, that people

should be more tolerant of immigrants, and people of different

race, but when you look at opinion polls, up to 80% of Italian people

are opposed to immigration. You are swimming against the tide. That is

everywhere in Europe. That is one of the reasons were we talk about the

southern borders of Europe, not only of Italy, nobody wants to be... I am

afraid to be, populism is taking root all over Europe, and that is

what worries me, because if it is only one country, the other one can

help. But I am afraid it is taking root also in other countries, which

is the final end of the project of Europe, what I thought was Europe.

You say that, but the German interior minister has rejected this

idea that Italy in particular has a problem. He says that Germany has

946 refugees per 1 million population, Italy has 260. Your

population is about 60 million? You are not overburdened. I am not

talking that kind of burden. I'm talking about common responsibility

of the southern border of Europe. They land in Lampedusa, or whatever.

But what is happening in the southern Mediterranean, with

poverty, turmoil, makes a problem that is for everybody. But we hear

the mayor saying, please give us help, the Italian saying, please

give us help. But it is not particularly overburdened. It is not

the question of refugees. What we are underlying is the question of

people who die at sea. We had the tragedy of land producer, that we

had also 400 operations. `` and producer. Which were positive. 400

surge in rescue operations in the sea, and then a tragedy happened. ``

search and rescue. But what is happening, millions of people on the

move, it is not a problem that can be tackled by Italy a loan. I will

ask you about that issue in a moment. But to finish the point,

which you say is a different one about immigration in Italy, Italy in

particular, of EU countries, all Western countries, has an ageing

population. The lowest birth rates, 1.2%. `` 1.2 on average. You need to

hunt and 50,000 immigrants every year for the next ten years in order

to field your skills will teach. `` 250,000. So politicians like you

should make the economic case. But that is clear for everybody. It is

clear to everybody. We have 5 million illegal immigrants in my

country, who are by way, there are a lot of success stories, 5 million

illegal immigrants. That is not the problem. The problem is in motion,

feeling, sensation. A country that has been a country of huge

immigration, which is not at all used to immigration that happened in

one generation. It is a problem for Europe, for Italy and for Europe,

that we must tackle, and I must say, there is no easy solution. No

miracle solution. We are talking about the boat tragedy, hundreds of

African migrants lost their lives in the Mediterranean.

It has provoked a response from European leaders about what you do.

In the former French Foreign Minister, has been writing in

October saying" we have to reinforce the European border agency with

money, resources, and with a one country, one boat mission. So that

all EU members participate in the plan, and asylum seekers are

allocated to all EU nations, not just those bordering the

Mediterranean. " you agree with that. The southern border is a

common responsibility. The rescue must be strengthened, which is not

the case yet. So, waiting for Europe, we have done our job,

decided our initiative, putting all the Navy we have at disposal to

rescue people, but that is not the policy in Europe as far as

immigration and asylum. It is not a common policy, every country wants

to do its own national policy, and I think this is simply not effective.

I hope that the tragedy will not be forgotten, in a nutshell. You think

it will mean that you have now been given by the EU $40 million to help

you deal with the influx of migrants, do you think Lampedusa was

a game changer? I hope. I am working for that. Today, people have short

memories, and there are new tragedies coming. If you just move

to Syria, for instance, you would see 1 million refugees. So we are

working to make that the tragedy is not forgotten, and pave the way for

a new and more sensible policy. It will not be easy, there is no

miracle solution, nowhere in the world, I have never seen immigration

solved easily, nowhere. Not even in the US, or whatever. But we have to

tackle the issue. I know one thing, this phenomenon is here to stay with

us. African countries that border the Mediterranean are in political

and economic turmoil. We need to sit down and rationally try to

step`by`step be more effective. There are people who just want to

stay in their home, and that is simply not going to work. We see

what you are saying. We have seen Enrico Letta save, let's declare a

day of national mourning for these people who died at sea, we also saw

the Indonesian President visiting Lampedusa. But we also see that you

have overcrowded migrant centres in Lampedusa, we look at Italy's half

anti`immigration laws, set up in 2002, whereby the mere act of an

Italian citizen helping an irregular migrant criminalises that action.

Criminal eyes is the person if they give them shelter all work. But that

is not really the conflict. The conflict is there, because according

to the treaty, when people call us for asylum, they have the same where

they want a silent. They have to stay where they ask for asylum. That

is another limitation that is difficult to overcome. On `` the

trouble is that they see Italy as a transit Country. They want to go to

France, or elsewhere in Europe where their families are. We have more

less seven million people on the move, just on the southern border.

They are going to Bulgaria now, which is calling for help. Of

course, in winter, perhaps they will not come by sea, they will go buy

land, via Turkey or everywhere. That needs a long time policy, but zero

problem does not exist. We have to accept the fact that this mobility

of people, is a phenomena that is here to stay with us. It has been

said that EU countries of lack of generosity and imagination. Do you

think that the EU has really lost its edge. One example, Italy given

very little in aid, failing dismally to meet its commitments for

international aid set up by the EU. Yes, I think it has a lot to do with

people becoming introverted and more provincial, and trying to defend

what they have and being very scared of any new things. And it is making

you a declining power on the world stage? Well, we're not common power,

we don't always act in a very coherent and cohesive way. But it

certainly has a lot to do with it. People become very scared. They

think that if they close the border, they will be safe. Which is a wrong

appreciation, it doesn't work like that. Emotionally, this is what is

happening. You think that the EU, essentially, can only be a force on

the global stage of its allies at Telford the US `` allies itself with

the US? We can discuss with the Americans or others, but first we

have to do find an agreement among the 28 EU member states. Will there

be any coherence at the EU when it comes to the spying allegations. As

you know, Angela Merkel has, many observers say, really reacted in a

very angry way. Very rare for her, when there were allegations that the

NSA of the US had been tapping her personal mobile phone. She said,

friends don't spy on each other. She says, you have got to build trust

amongst one another. Newspaper allegations in the Guardian in the

UK say that 85 world leaders were included in this kind of

surveillance. Was Italy, to your knowledge, one of those countries?

To my knowledge, we are not. That doesn't make us different. Will you

be asking the Americans? We did already. We had a bilateral with

John Kerry at on Wednesday, and they acknowledge that they have a problem

and agreed to fix it. They said President Obama is determined to

find a solution to the problem. What did he say the nation of the problem

was? He didn't elaborate, and I didn't ask either. What was

important yesterday was that 28 head of state meeting yesterday,

altogether, with one voice, asked and reacted for an explanation.

Because Francoise Hollande was, and the Germans were angry, they said

they wanted a meeting to work it out. Were you shocked by these

revelations that came from Edward Snowden? I am not exactly shop.

Maybe surprised. `` shocked. I want to ask you very quickly, on Syria,

because you are one of the Friends of Syria, what happens to Assad?

Briefly, but Bashar al`Assad. First, I'm really happy that now the

political solution has become the mainstream after a period of

military, whatever, intervention, and Italy has been consistent in

calling for a political process. Impunity for the Assad regime? The

reason why you make a conference is that you don't prejudge the

conference at the beginning, otherwise it is useless to make a

peace conference. That is why, today, the most important in is to

bring the two to the table. One of the most challenging things is that

the Syrian opposition is not yet, let's say, at that point to sitting

at the table. Bringing it back to women, Italy has never had a female

PM. When might we see one? That is not the issue. The issue is another

one. Women really go on walking, standing, asking, pretending, that

is the real issue. Thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk.