Rebecca Gomperts - Director, Women on Waves HARDtalk

detained around 90 people. Time now for HARDtalk with Zeinab

Badawi. Welcome to HARDtalk. Its access to

abortion a human right for women everywhere in the world? Women on

Waves has provided abortions and contraception to women who live in

countries where terminating pregnancy is illegal or restricted.

The organisation was set up by Dutch doctor Rebecca Gomperts who hires a

ship, registered under Dutch law, and sails into it that ``

international water. How do she justify helping women ignore the own

climate in their countries? Doctor Rebecca Gomperts, welcome to

HARDtalk. Thank you very much. Abortion is a controversial issue,

why did you take it up as a cause? As a woman and a doctor I met Winnie

`` many women suffering from abortion. It is one of the main

problems for women worldwide. I believe it is a right, the right to

autonomy is violated if the women are not capable of deciding about

our lives. You are struck by the figures, WHO says 21.7 million

people that women have illegal abortions every year. Was that the

figures you found? When I started the figures were even higher. When a

medical abortion, abortion by pills, was introduced more widely

the death rate has dropped significantly. It is not just the

women who are dying. 8 million women have to be hospitalised and suffer

from long`term consequences. But also girls have to quit school when

they are pregnant and cannot have a safe abortion and are forced to

carry a pregnancy to term. It is a social injustice, for me. You are

responding as a women's campaigner but as a doctor you know a lot of

your fellow doctors find abortion rather unpalatable. Some he

represents this body and says there we are in a hospital trying to save

the life of a premature baby born at 21 weeks and down the corridor in

the hospital there are women coming in to abort babies at up to 24

weeks, that is here in the UK. How can anyone say that make sense? They

are two very different situations a woman is. When a child is wanted it

is awful when there is a premature birth. When it is an unwanted

pregnancy a woman should not need to die she was to have a safe abortion.

That is what is happening. You see any conflict, as a doctor, rather

than in prolonging life you are terminating it. I am there to

support the life of the women. I do not see a conflict. When women have

an unwanted pregnancy they will end it no matter what. Women that have

money can go to a doctor that will help them for a lot of money. It is

a social justice issue. For women who do not have access to

information who are forced to do it unsafely with knitting needles or

poisons. Abortion can be so safe, for example when it is done by

medicines. It is the safest medical procedure that exists. You back

abortion in any case, a lifestyle choice, not performing and abortion

to save the life of the mother because the fetus is in some it not

viable. I wonder whether you come in your late 20s, you are on the record

as saying it had an abortion because it did not seek to live at the time

to have a child. I am wondering whether your own experience

influences what you do. I wish all women who had abortions would

support abortion rights and stand for it. The reality in the world is

that every woman has an abortion once in her lifetime. That is not

true, is it, not every woman. Not every woman has an abortion, but

statistically, the number of abortions, there are statistically

every woman would have an abortion once in her lifetime. In the

Netherlands, one in five women has an abortion. Some women have more

than one and some have none at all. As a doctor as an abortion fighter I

have had many times were a woman has come to me and said I am against

abortion but my situation is different. It is that the

fundamentals this issue. Nobody really knows what it is to have an

unwanted pregnancy unless you are in that situation. That is why movie

can decide this for anybody else. This is a decision that a woman can

only make herself because she knows what it means to her and her

life... Women to undertake the decision, navy does... Nervy knows

what they would decide when they have situation. What people think is

that most women who have abortions, most of them have children. You are

now the mother of two young children. Did that change of use? It

did not change might use in any way. `` view. I could even understand

better. It is very demanding to have children. It is beautiful. But her

mother wants to give their children everything she can when she feels

she cannot give everything that she was to give to a child, that is the

moment that she decides... You believe access to abortion is

essentially a right for all women wherever they live. It is a human

right. You know there are those like Dan Scanlon from a Pro Life UK

charity that says they cannot be a human right to abortion because of

the unborn child. There are two rights were talking up the rights of

the unborn child versus the rights of the mother. The way that

countries have solved that is to say that where the fetus has the

possibility to survive outside the womb, which is 20` 24 weeks, that is

where the right of the fetus and of the mother or a less equal Sir if

the mother 's life is in danger she can still have an abortion. The rest

of the time it is the woman's life that prevails. You see it as a

clear`cut issue. Again quoting this British doctor, no one was to see

backstreet abortions, but there is not a clear`cut answer. I wonder if

you see something that is quite grey free lot of people as a fairly

clear`cut issue. `` for a lot of people. I understand if people are

feeling strongly, and most of these are religious views, I think science

has shown that there is no consciousness of the fetus and

things like that. I can understand they feel passionate about it. My

reality is the reality of the women. No woman will be stopped by a

law or anybody else when she needs to have an abortion. You can flip

the science either way. Professor Stuart Campbell perform scans every

day of the week says that what eight fetus can do or feel also warned we

find it is earlier and earlier. I do not want to go down that medical

issue. You see it as a clear`cut issue. Do you have any sympathy or

understanding of the point of view? Do you see any merit in the argument

of those opposed to abortion? Abortion is not a choice or write it

is murder, the denial of the right life. You have any truck with that

kind of view? I do not. I see that women is desperate and women are

desperate to end their pregnancy and they need help. And women if they do

not get proper medical care they will do it themselves and they will

die as a result. Again, it is the women that are poor who do not have

access to information or money, women who have money can travel to

other countries... In 1999 new setup women on ways which gets a ship

registered under Dutch law, because abortion is legal in Dutch law, you

go to international waters and then women can come onto that ship and

you can provide not a surgical abortions, but with abortion pills

up to 6.5 weeks of pregnancy. You have helped quite a few women like

that. A Dutch anti`abortion group says that what you do is more about

promoting an ideology than helping people. What you say to that? I

think that if we are talking about promoting knowledge `` ideology that

is what he does. He is a very fundamentalist Christian. People

want to impose their views on others. The difference with women on

ways is that we give an option for women. We are not forcing anybody to

have an abortion. The people who do not want to have an abortion do not

have to have one. It is the women who need one who can access it. I

think it is the difference between the anti`abortion rights groups and

the abortion rights groups is that we are providing the option for

decision. The people who are against abortion want to impose their views

on what they believe is right and wrong on women. Women, whether they

are Catholic, Muslim, whatever religion they have abortions. You

say you provide choice. You have been to various countries, but in

2005 you set up a women on wet. This was information provided on the

Internet where you can prescribe the anti`abortion pill to women which

you post to them. They have to answer 25 questions. And then you

give them one of these two drugs. Isn't that dangerous allowing women

to get access to this kind of medication? Went `` medical abortion

is a very safe procedure. The pills are on the essential list of

medicines, so they are recognised as a life`saving medicines. It is a

safer than using penicillin. The accommodation of these drugs is very

safe. You think there is no danger at all. If you look at the National

abortion Federation website it talks about possible side effects of one

of the drugs, pain, cramps, convocations, I read that it also

may include infections and incomplete abortions that may

subsequently require surgical procedures, suction, in other

words... It is similar to a miscarriage and has the same health

risks. Most women handle a miscarriage by themselves. 20% of

pregnancies end in spontaneous miscarriage. What about the other

80%? You can actually plan and be near a place where there is medical

care. The incompleteness of the abortion pill that I am talking

about, whereby this Federation says you may require suction and that is

surgical, is a woman going to present herself in a country where

abortion is illegal to say I did not finish my DIY abortion myself. We

are advising women if they have complaints, and it is very rare if

they have complaints, it is rare if is an incomplete abortion and need

for a surgical abortion, we advise women to say they have a spontaneous

abortion. The doctor will not see the difference. With the abortion

with pills that is almost never a real medical emergency which needs

to be addressed immediately. But do you know that? Another person, from

the Irish Family Planning Association, these drugs are safe

but women taking them on there own sometimes do not know what they are

actually taking. You do not know what the consequences might be of

some of those tens of thousands of women who have applied for these

drugs through your website. Yes, we do know. We follow up. We know how

it goes. You can only provide this for women who are up to nine weeks

pregnant. Do you know if the women are more advanced? You do not know

because it is very the Internet. This is a service based on trust.

She could be 16, 18, 20 weeks pregnant. If I ask you if you are

allergic to penicillin and you say no but you know you are... Every

relationship between a doctor and a patient is based on trust. Women are

usually very scared and concerned about that health. They do not know

what he implication is if they're pregnant any longer. Some may not

know. Especially if you have an adverse `` adolescent. We advise

women to do an ultrasound before so they know how far along. But they

may not want to present themselves to an ultrasound. I do not say they

will not be these cases. The women who reach out to us either direct,

have access to Internet. `` the correct. Most women are able to

determine their pregnancy quite accurately. If you have an abortion

as a woman, you face a prison sentence of five to ten years. A

doctor, 15 years. How do you feel about helping women raped the laws

of their own country? `` great the laws. For some women, this is the

only option they have. They're extremely grateful. You are putting

them at risk of being arrested. We do not know. If that is a problem,

we men can present themselves to a hospital and say they have had a

miscarriage. It is exactly the same. Virtue except you are helping them

break the law because you think the law is a bad one. I do. If you look

at it in the broader perspective of human rights, the way to healthcare

is a human right. These women are denied. This happens in democratic,

legitimate governments. Ireland, abortion is severely restricted.

These governments have come into power, reflect things be different

positions on abortion the country shares. It does not mean it is

within the international human rights standards. I do not think the

fact that the country is democratic... The majority cannot

make this decision. You like to be part of the political campaign when

it comes to discussing abortion in the country. You put abortion very

high on the political agenda for the election, the following year. With

the women in waves work, it is. Abortion was legalised in Portugal

two years later. But a country like Morocco, 2012, you are blocked from

entering the country. US heavily criticised by one particular NGO

that supports abortion. But they said they want to stop clandestinely

abortion because it is dangerous. They say your tactics are

provocative, they create a scandal and they did not help his

organisation and finds the cause for legal abortion. This has been a

criticism. We worked with a group, a civil rights organisation in

Morocco, who invited us to come. We only go to countries by the

invitation of local women organisations. Before we came, he

said he supported the campaign. Only when the ship came in, he withdrew

the support. It came from internal political issues. He demonstrates

the point that you have an indigenous organisation that does

not believe luxury apportions the tech place because they endanger the

lives of women. `` backstreet abortions take place. There are

something like 78 deaths a year from unsafe abortions. He prefers a

different method. He has a meeting lined up with parliamentarians in

Morocco. Did you except that you are eye`catching, provocative tactics,

as he says, are perhaps counter`productive and maybe there

is an alternative way? There are women in Morocco who needs of

abortions. The situation is interesting in Morocco. In the

pharmacies, you can buy medicines that you can use to do and abortion

yourself. Women did not know about this, the doctor did not know about

this. One of the aims is to launch a hotline for women to cause to get

information on how many of these drugs they need and how to take

them. The hotline is getting a lot of calls. You are a Dutch doctor.

Liberal views, quite different. People may think you are a Trojan

horse, that you want to bring in liberal ideas on sexuality. Are you

the right champion of this cause? We are working together with

organisations that are fighting for the same causes. It is not like it

does not exist at all in the society. There are groups fighting

to legalise abortion in Morocco. We work with them. There are different

Dix won the news. The doctor's tactics have not led to the

legalisation of abortion for the past ten years. This was a different

way with a different goal. We have had a lot of support from

organisations and people in Morocco. A different way to achieve the goal,

use a. You were an active member of Greenpeace. They have their campaign

of civil disobedience. Generally speaking, using any kind of civil

disobedience, our campaigns are acceptable if the objective is

desirable? When it is about achieving human rights or a social

justice, acting civil disobedience is a Dick that is acceptable. The

problem at the moment is a lot of intolerance from governments to

civil disobedience, like in Russia. Also Julian Assange. Do you think

any tactics are acceptable? What about the topless campaigns in

Russia. They use their sexuality this way. If that is their choice,

and it does not harm anybody, I do not see why it is not acceptable.

What is different about our work is that it is helping women. It is

giving women the access to medical abortion is that they need. It is

not just civil disobedience or a media campaign. It is really

providing services. Where everyone stands on the abortion debate, you

have shown extreme commitment to your callers. You have learned very

little money personally. You find it difficult to raise funds because if

women cannot afford to pay, they get the service for free. It is a

nonprofit organisation. You struggle to make money. Do you ever feel like

giving up? No. Every e`mail that we get from a woman in need of support,

help, is the reason to continue. We receive more than 130 e`mails ``

130,000 e`mails per year. A lot of women know how to find us. All over

the world. They're the reason we are existing. Thank you very much.

The damaging storm which we had during the early hours of Monday

continues to spread East into