Petro Poroshenko - Ukrainian Businessman and Politician HARDtalk

More bulletins throughout the night. Now it is time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk. Ukraine had an historic opportunity this week to

move towards full integration with the European Union. European leaders

wanted to steal and Association agreement, which would draw one of

your's largest nations firmly into Brussels or a bit. But Ukraine's

president walked away from the deal in favour of closure ties with

Russia. Why? My guest is Petro Poroshenko, billionaire Ukrainian

businessman and former minister. East or west? Where do Ukraine's

real interests lie? Petro Poroshenko, welcome to

HARDtalk. Thank you. How surprised were you when the President decided

to pull the plug on the Association agreement with the European Union.

Good afternoon and good evening, I think that this is very important.

Until now, we do not have any opinion of the President. That is an

interesting fact. It was only the decision of the government. It is

quite content for the viewers to understand what is the difference

between the Prime Minister and the President. All of the power is

focused in the President. So you do not doubt it was the President

himself who decided to walk away from the deal? First of all, when it

happened, the government decision, it was a big shock to everybody. For

the Ukrainian people, for the Ukrainian politicians, for the

European leaders. It seems to me that the Russians do not know how to

command that. They did not have any way to welcome that. That what do.

So you were shocked. But now that you have heard the basic affirmation

from the Ukrainian government, who said that they felt it was in

Ukraine's national`security interest not to sign this deal and that they

would look towards the customs union deal with Russia and the former

Soviet states, because they said that would restore lost production,

output, trade and relations. Can you understand the decision? No. Neither

me nor the Ukrainian politicians or Ukrainian people, nobody can

understand that. We do not have any danger if we signed the Association

agreement with the European Union. The main motivation for me as the

Ukrainian politician as a Ukrainian citizen is stronger voting for the

necessity to reform my country. We are simply not competitive. They

have big problems from the point of view of democracy, freedom of

speech, freedom of press. The valuer talking about is the Russians? Some

people inside the Ukrainian government. I am not commenting on

any Russian steppes. Russia is acting in their own interests. They

have an idea about global Russia. From that point of view, the Russian

step is totally logical. But you are one of the Ukraine's biggest

businessmen. You know almost better than anybody in your country that

you cannot divorce the decision taken by the Ukrainian government

from the stands taken inside Russia. Russia is putting enormous pressure

on the Ukrainian government not to do this deal with the EU. For sure.

I know that. I was the foreign affairs Minister. I was the Minister

for the economy. I am one of the biggest Ukrainian symbols. You are

known as the King of chocolate. I will spare your blushes. But your

confectionery as this is huge. You also own shipyards, automakers, a TV

station, you are a billionaire businessman. You know the pressure

from the Russians. The Russians declared that your chocolates would

have longer safe to eat inside Russia. They banned export from the

countries. `` country. You know precisely why the Ukrainians decided

that they could not afford to do this. That is true. But when Russia

declared the band, the next day we made a top world laboratory for

making and international independent assessment. Russia received 40

reports from the top laboratories in the world. Not a single country in

the world can confirm the Russian decision. I am not suggesting that

your chocolate was poisonous. That is not the point I am trying to

make. What I am trying to get at is this. You know, because your

business suffered real losses, that Russia has enormous power. Russia is

the single biggest trading partner of Ukraine. When Russia imposed

these restrictions and controls on various Ukrainian exports, trade

went down 25%. Your economy is in a total mess, partly because people

fear the Russia factor. What choice did the President have? In the end,

the Russian economic pressure, intimidation if you want to put it

that way, was extreme. Russia wants to use the economic influence on the

political decision. If you're talking about 25% of the drop in

turnover, they had some positive figures. Russia supplied to the

Ukraine 30`40% less the natural gas. Ukraine becomes more energy

efficient. But Ukraine still owes a huge amount of money. Mr Putin

indicated in direct talks that if Ukraine was to leave Europe behind

and look towards the Russian customs union, there would be a reward. They

would be a carrot. A lot of the debts would be written off. I would

not use reward, but bright. `` bribe. Should we use this price for

building up democracy, we should pay this price. Without bringing in new

technology, without bringing in the CSS are investment, Ukraine will not

be competitive. `` necessary. I am talking about the short`term. We

have two choices. The first tourist is signed with the Association

agreement. Second step, providing enough money from the IMF will help

us for providing reform. It will help the energy economy giving up

the advantage. Cooperation with the International monetary fund, the

World Bank, the AFC and a lot of institutions. It would bring $1

billion. It would help us solve the economy. In the other way, the

association with Russia. We have the short`term positive by adoring the

gas prices. But it is not. `` nothing. Without reforms, it is just

a couple of years of softening the situation. In the middle term

strategy, it is more difficult problem. But it is incumbent on you

to explain how you would deal with the Russian relationship if the

Ukraine had gone ahead with the Association agreement. One man talks

about the politics and political pressure, talking about

full`scale's stance towards Kiev, how do you overcome the politics?

The relationship cannot last forever. We are such a closed

country. We have a common history. Russia depends on the Ukrainian

market in the same way that Ukraine depends upon Russia. With respect,

you are talking the language of give and take and reason. I was at a

conference recently that you were at well in Yalta. One of the Kremlin's

key advisers look you in the Eye and said, understand this, if you go in

the direction of Europe, you will suffer the consequences. He said

that in Russia we will see no reason to abide by our long`standing

treaties with the Ukraine. In other words, he was threatening that there

could be deep instability, maybe even some of the ethnic Russian

parts of your country might receive some support and assistance from

Moscow. He suggested that if you did not do what Moscow wanted, there

would essentially create conflict between Moscow and Kiev. Thank you

for reminding me of this. It was an interesting dialogue. It was not

really dialogue. It was a clear message from Russia that Ukraine

should know its place. First of all, I am a citizen of the Ukraine.

Ukraine is a sovereign and independent state. I am fighting for

the right of the Ukraine, the government, the presidency, the

people, the Parliament, to make a decision by themselves. We cannot

make any decision from Moscow or Brussels. We will listen to advice.

But we are fighting for our rights and make a decision for ourselves.

If anyone wanted to make the pressure on Ukraine, that is what

results. Would you accept some responsibility for the fact that the

Ukraine looks like the pretty dysfunctional country today with

deep levels of corruption, with a real split between East and West,

North and South, with the Russian speaking parts of the Ukraine in a

difficult place. Would you, as one of the oligarchs of the country,

would you accept some responsibility that for the last decade, the

Ukraine has not been serious about reform? Let us divide the question.

If you are talking about corruption and the awful situation in the

Ukrainian court system and the absolutely wild bureaucracy. That is

exactly the biggest problem. You are part of a status quo that are set to

itself, as long as we can make money and profit, we will live with

Ukraine we have got. If you know a little bit to about my history, I

was fighting against corruption most of the time I was in the opposition.

The only reason for me to be in politics was to help my country. I

tried to do my best. I had some results. Including the Association

agreement. The free trade agreement with the European Union. I am sure

that to solve the problem of corruption, to build up the

democratic society, we should just modernise the country under the

rules of European Union. It can be simple to do the reforms. But if

you're talking about the country divided by language between East and

West and the sympathy to the West and Russia. I am happy to inform you

that this is not true any more for the past five months. Why? Because

of Russia. If you remember, I said that the united the country. Is that

true? We see hundreds of people who wants to form a new protest camp.

Ask yourself, how many Ukrainians are really prepared to go back onto

the streets to fight for a European future? First of all, they do not go

to fight. I merely political sense. I do not mean that they will take up

arms. Is there a possibility that we could see scenes in Kiev reminiscent

of that orange revolution? Coming back from the previous topic, first

of all, for this for months, the nation is united. Four months ago,

only 40% of people supported European integration. Now, the

figure is completely different. We have 68% from the last poll. 68% of

Ukrainian people supporting the European integration. This is a

national idea to unite the country. I am happy about that. And to my

question. If two thirds of the people support the European

solution, what will they do about the fact that the government has

gone the other direction? Will they now be some sort of mass public

protest movement? This is exactly what we had a possibility to see

yesterday. I was an organiser of this meeting. I was addressing

200,000 people in the square. That was demonstrating that Ukrainian

people are not... They hate the 80 that somebody would steal their

dreams, European dreams. Steel that hopes. It was bad weather, but they

understand it now. If you see the pictures, it is self explaining.

When the police start to remove the people, people standstill, because

it is impossible to stop the people when the right to have a thousand

people protesting. `` when there are 200,000 people protesting. They sent

a direct message to the President. They said, the door of the European

Union is still open, they can still sign the agreement. It will not be

the responsible to the foreign affairs Minister. He should follow

the 68% of his people. You say the Doris still open, you obviously want

this whole question to be revisited over whether the Ukraine can find a

way into the European cloud. The recently as we have not talked

about, that is the situation surrounding the former president.

Some Europeans said it would not be a deal until you've yet to machine

to us released. Do you think the Europeans got that wrong? They

should not have made her such an issue for European citizenship?

Attractive explain the situation. The EU has tracked to put in place a

system. They have not said if it was guilty of not guilty. They have said

that during the court process, there was no right to defend themselves.

It is unacceptable for the European rules of law and European

politicians. Among the 11 criteria which were established in the

December summit, the Ukrainian position was number one. We

demonstrated a strong focus on other questions. She is still in jail. We

should find a way to compromise. The fate of the nation, the biggest

nation in Europe by Territorians cannot depend on the fate of one

person. You are suggesting that they can be away for Ukraine to do this

deal with Yulia Tymoshenko still in jail. We have a direct letter to the

President saying, please make a public declaration that you will

sign, on the 20th of November, the agreement. If you publicly declare

your intent. She did say that, and she wanted the agreement even if she

were still in prison. Almost certainly now they will not be in

agreement. It seemed extra narrowly unlikely that the President will

change his mind. Can there be a bit more romantic and think that 200,000

people, millions of Ukrainians, will try to use this last week until the

summit to arrange the conditional, should the President signed the

agreement? You think it is possible? I think it is. Otherwise I could not

go to 100,000 people and ask for their support. We will do our best

to sign it. Let us suppose it is not happen. Will you leave? You are one

of the richest and best known men in the Ukraine. Will you leave the

opposition movement, and would you put yourself behind Yulia

Tymoshenko, even though she is in prison, as the leader of an

opposition movement? You asking me the political question. I am trying

to deliver you the information that we European integration is not only

a political question. People are not supporting any political leader, it

does not matter, they came there without political slogans, just to

demonstrate that the main purpose for them was to unite the country

the association agreement without any preference to a politician. This

is not the last day. I would hate the idea to postpone it. They can

try to release you some further information. At the end of February,

most probably will take place, the next summit between the EU and the

UK. If we have no possibility to sign this agreement, that was the

last date when we had the European Parliament still in force. They will

lodge their election campaign. The old Commissioner from the European

Commissioner, and all the European politicians who demonstrate the

decision to save can happen at the end of February. We will work hard.

It is impossible but only the opposition or President could be

signing the agreement. We need unification, unification for the

countries and for the political agreement. I salute your optimism.

You are forgetting one thing, the power of Russia. Vladimir Putin in

particular. Here are some words from the open Europe foundation. The

lesson of all of this is that the EU's soft power diplomacy has its

limits. Playing carrot and stick does not work when you come up

against the real hard power of Russia. This is a highly significant

moment. That is the truth, is it not? Iama had a percent supportive

of this idea. The Ukraine could not stay like it is today. He cannot

change is geography. It will always be next door to Russia.

Unfortunately, I present you with a negative proposal. If the Ukraine to

sign in the near future, the association agreement with the

European Union, because of the difficult financial system and the

economic situation, because next year it is the preparatory year for

the election, because of a list of factors, the Ukraine will remain in

the orbit of Russia. That is not good for the Ukraine. That will be

the Ukraine's destiny. I have nothing against Russia. Russia do

what they understand of Russian interests. But this is not Ukrainian

interests. We go not from Russia, but from the Soviet Union. Russia

needs reform, just like the Ukraine. Thank you for being on harmful.

HARDtalk. Very little change with the weather

this week, it is all because we are still keeping hold of this area of

high pressure. It will keep things mainly dry across the UK. Wormholes

appear overnight in the cloud will see some patchy frost and fog. It

will turn coldly and by the end of the week. The central slice of the

UK will see most of the clear spells. A cold start here this

morning. On either side, a bit more cloud, not quite as cold. Towns and

cities around