Francois Pienaar - Captain, South African Rugby Team, 1993 - 1996 HARDtalk

affection. Several heads of state will be taking part in the memorial

service or the state funeral of Mr Mandela.

Now it is time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. HARDtalk is in

Cape Town to meet Francois Pienaar who captained the South African

rugby team when it won the World Cup in 1995. It was an occasion that

produced one of the most electrifying moments in Nelson

Mandela's leadership. He walked into the stadium wearing a Springbok

jersey. It galvanised the team and united the nation. So, is the hope

and optimism generated by that they alive now? `` that day.

Welcome to HARDtalk. Nelson Mandela was your president, he was also your

friend. Can you put into words what you are thinking now? I didn't

realise I would be so emotional We knew that Mr Mandela's passing was

imminent, and we were preparing for that. In actual fact, in a sense,

for him to go to rest would be the best thing, because he has been

suffering quite a bit. But when the story broke, I became incredibly

emotional. And they don't understand why. The last couple of days has

been a rollercoaster ride, sitting in front of the television watching

what is happening all over the world, and what people are saying

about him. It makes you feel so blessed to have had an opportunity

to share intimate time with one of the greatest leaders the world has

ever seen. Is that right? You shared what you call intimate moments with

him? Yes, as a matter of fact, the story about the rugby has been well

told. What hasn't been told us what happened after the rugby, and that

is when our relationship really grew, and I got to know him better

as a person. When he came to the UK, having tea with him, being

invited back to tea and having discussions with him on the odd

occasion, getting to know the man better than just in the sporting

context. You know, on the sporting field, as such. I grew up in

apartheid South Africa, and as a young kid, when Mr Mandela was a

prisoner, the things that I heard about him were bad things. Sadly

so, around the barbecue fires, people will talk about politics and

sport. More about sport, because in this country we are crazy about

sport. And if the name Nelson Mandela came up, it was accompanied

by terrorist, madman... You grew up with that? I grew up with that. I

don't know why he never challenged it, it is just the way I grew up as

a kid. It would come in one ear and go out the other, but there, it is a

words terrorist and bad man stuck. That is why went to university to

find out what the man is really like, and that is when you really

form an opinion. When he became president, from Brisbane to

president, and I got the call to go on scene, you imagine how nervous I

was. `` from prison to president. I could hear his voice, from outside

his office, he has this magnificent voice, that he `` and he came

walking through the door, and the first in a notice was he was a big

man. When he said hello, he spoke to me in Afrikaans. Most of our

conversation was in Afrikaans. I kept moving to English, and he kept

switching back to Afrikaans. That was very special, in hindsight, I

didn't realise then how special it was. Nelson Mandela had been out of

the public eye, for three years or so, but you sense, coming here, that

he had a real presence still. Absolutely. He will hopefully have a

presence for a very long time, to come in our great nation. His magic

is everywhere. We are talking to you today because of that electrifying

moment when you are both in that stadium in 1995, when South Africa

won the World Cup. Just described for me what you remember of that

day. I remember it clearly. I have not even watch the video of a match,

because it was such a special day. The overall emotion for us was the

focus to win. Our focus was to win, on the match. As a captain, I didn't

sleep the night before. You never sleep well tonight for a big match,

because you are tossing and turning. It is the biggest thing that will

ever happen in your life, you have one opportunity to make the right

course, to ensure the team is relaxed, and you can imagine how

tense the players were, having made the final, in your country, for the

first time. We had a sense of what it meant to South Africa, so the

focus for us was this match, the 80 minutes on the field, making sure

that we could take every opportunity. Then we were in the

changing room and you are still going through this thought

processes. When there was a knock on the door. I looked up, there was a

loud knock, and the door opened, and in walked Mr Mandela. I was

incredibly emotional. Because.. We incredibly emotional. Because.. We

can take some time. Thanks. You shouldn't be doing this when you are

a sportsman. No, no. I thought... Take some time. Give me a slap! You

were saying, you were there in the dressing room when you heard a

knock. And he walked in, and there was a Springbok on his heart, and if

you know history, rugby was for the white people in South Africa,

predominantly the Afrikaners. At the end of apartheid it became a symbol

of hate for the black people, which you can understand. We love our

sport, and as an Afrikaner, and I am proud Afrikaner, when you grow up

and you can play a bit of rugby, the and you can play a bit of rugby, the

question is always asked, is he good enough? You think it can be a

Springbok one`day? With the end of apartheid, it hurt the core of the

Afrikaners, because sport is a release. When he walked into the

dressing room wearing a Springbok on his heart, it was just, wow. You saw

my reaction of it earlier, I had that reaction. You bite your lip,

you nor your teeth, and he just stood there and he said, good luck,

boys. My number was on his back. boys. My number was on his back

That was me gone, I couldn't sing the anthem because I knew I would

cry. I was so proud to be a South African that day. Do you think that

galvanised the team? Did it make a difference? It had an effect. You

realise it was much bigger than the game. It was the enormity of it

struck me, but we had to get back to focus, because you can't be that

emotional. This is 18 years down the line and I still get emotional when

I think about it. You can't be that emotional, because if you don't

focus you would lose, and we have trained so hard to win. We had

played New Zealand on a number of occasions, it was a real opportunity

to do something special. Immediately after we left, I took the team down,

and the emotion was there, the buzz was there. It was almost like that

magic came into our bodies and we were just ready to go. And then, you

win the game, and there he is, standing there handing you the

trophy. That was incredible. Incredible. When I walked up onto

the podium, and Mr Mandela stuck out his hand and he said to me, and I

still can't believe that he said it, he said, thank you Francois for

what you have done for this country. I wanted to say, thank you for what

you have done for this country. It is if he didn't ask or tell the ANC

and the lack people in South Africa that this our team, they are playing

for us, we are one team and one country. Embrace them. Then we

wouldn't have had the support that we have. You say that gain was big,

but it was bigger than a rugby game. How transformative wasn't for South

Africa? Tremendous. Think it is very difficult to understand and

contextualise. When the bus couldn't leave the stadium at night, I

realised how big it was when I saw the images in the streets of people

dancing, laughing, hugging one another, crying. Like we have seen

images on television now that Mr Mandela's passing. I realised it was

special, but I didn't realise how special it was. In the next week,

there were so many stories that came out the next month, the next year,

18 years later, it will still talk about that moment when the first

time in country's history we were world champions together. We had a

shot at something special. Sport gave us that opportunity. Before

that day, I try to get into the mind of a South African rugby supporter.

Those people in the stadium, what kind of people were they? How did

they change? Predominantly white, mixed English and Afrikaans, but

mostly Afrikaners. There would have been in the stadium, people who are

politically against the ANC, against Nelson Mandela as a person, and what

he stood for. But they didn't understand what he stood for until

he walked out onto the field wearing the jersey. I didn't see this or

hear this, but I can only tell you what my friends and family have told

me. They said it was incredible. The stadium just started clapping their

hands and shouting " Nelson, Nelson, Nelson" . What happened afterwards,

big men, farmers, people from across the Afrikaans spectrum,

businesspeople, farmers, educators, there were all in that stadium, and

it wasn't a dry eye in the house. Because there was something special

was happening, and they realised something special was happening.

something special was happening That some thing special, how long

did it last? Has it lasted until now? S yes. Because the moment was

so big. `` yes, because the moment was so big it transcended time.

Maybe time stood still, and maybe still is standing still, because of

the opportunity we got as a nation. And it was sport and leadership that

gave us that opportunity. So, in my life, yes. But it is an unfair

question, because when I do meet people, and I travelled throughout

South Africa, and I still hear stories of where people were in

their village, or in the local community, when they were watching

this game. So it is an unfair question. We really that moment. You

question. We really that moment You will be aware that there are people

who say that actually what happened to white people is that they learnt

to love the man, but not necessarily what he stood for, which is the

upliftment of all black people. Invariably that would happen, but I

would like to counter that in saying that the people that I have met in

the stories that I have heard is that they have changed forever. So,

yes, they respected the man, but they respected his principles. And

when they now reflect on his leadership, they wish they had them

for so much longer `` they wish they had him. Much longer, we had him for

such a short time. So there is that respect, and I think hope that the

leaders are following his footsteps will have the same moral compass and

values, and energy, and love for the country that Mr Mandela had. And do

you think they do? Leaders that have followed him? I am not a politician,

you know, we have some fantastic leaders in the ANC, but we always ``

also have leaders who aren't doing so well in the ANC. That is why I

get emotional when people are using Mr Mandela's name but not following

his example. That makes me angry. What as a thank you and request that

an iMac because we have so much still to do. We have a long road to

travel, we are a young democracy. We have had an incredible start, when

the world thought that it was going to turn it ruins, it didn't happen.

And the reason it didn't happen was because of leadership. So, 20 years

down the line, at the bottom of Africa, this country has so much to

offer. In every aspect. To fulfil that promise, it is our duty. We

cannot fail Mr Mandela in that. There are people who say he has

already been failed, that South Africa remains an unequal country.

That it has become more unequal. I That it has become more unequal I

see that. Oftentimes we debate that as South Africans. I want to steer

back and said that the opportunity still exists within the ANC. They

are working towards a better life for South Africans. Corruption is

unacceptable. We need to stamp it out. Listening to you just now, what

it tells me is that it is as if the nation were built upon the shoulders

of one man. Now that he is gone, people will start panicking and

saying, can we make it? Not at all. There are some phenomenal leaders.

They will pick it up and pass it on. The leaders of tomorrow as sitting

at universities. They are 20 years old. They did not grow up in

apartheid. They have grown`up in a vibrant South Africa. The rainbow

nation. Some of the magazine a fantastic education. They will be

the business and political leaders. `` some of them are getting a

fantastic education. There are still our fantastic opportunities. Yuri

Sportsmen, Nelson Mandela, he used sport. `` you are a sports man. I do

not think he used sport, he understood the power of sport. We

have not won everything in the past 50 years. He understood the power of

sport. It can unite people in a way that nothing else can. If you look

at sporting events across the world, what happened in London during the

Olympics was phenomenal. Our nation came together. Bradley Wiggins, Tour

de France, I can go on. I am proud that British people were winning

such an event, and that we won gold medals for them. Nelson Mandela

realised that. He realised the power of rugby in the Afrikaans committee.

We had to train hard and make sure that we won the match. `` Afrikaans

community. When we won the match, a fire was lit. Do you think Nelson

Mandela made a calculated move in deciding that he was going to adopt

rugby in this way? He might. My view is, having spent time with him, he

was so genuine. It would not have just been a belated move to embrace

rugby. He understood the importance of it, and he really cared. He was

genuine. I have met a lot of people, like you. You know when people are

real, and not real. He is real. What is it about sport that gets passed

politics? The emotion, the opportunity of another chance. There

is always another chance on the sporting field. If you stumble, next

week and make it up and be on top of the world. Or you can go to the next

World Cup and have another chance. Living in London for six years,

sport has that. When England do well on the football field, when athletes

too well, it is magic. People are smiling, they are happy. They are

champions. The reason other opportunities next weekend. `` there

is another opportunity. You have seen the seeds of South Africa's

streets. They remind you of the moment after the World Cup. How

important is it for South Africans to conduct themselves in the next

week also in a dignified way? Very important. I was asked the question,

what will happen if he passes? I said we would celebrate his legacy.

We have two, we want to. What we have seen on television, I did not

sleep. People waking up, getting in their cars, walking to his house.

Now, if you look at the way people are gathering, how they are

celebrating and dancing in the streets, to say thank you. We had

this opportunity. It is now our opportunity to say thank you. What

is it that South Africans can do to show the world, and the world is

watching, to show the world that they will live up to the great

promise that Nelson Mandela made? We have already done that. If you look

of the last 20 years, what South Africa has done, it has been

phenomenal. If you travel around the globe, there is a lot of work in

many countries, the resale of work in America, in Europe, across the

globe. In the last 20 years, when everyone thought we would stutter

and end up in ruins, we have not. We have been an example of success

because of him. He has not been active in politics for a while. His

legacy will always be with each and every one of us. We have a duty to

remind people that are not following his footsteps that they should. What

about you personally? What is it that you do differently now? What is

it that you do that you would not have done, had she `` had you not

mass Nelson Mandela? His love sets apart from a leader I have met. The

best lesson I have learnt is no fear. For his jealous, the people

who did terrible things to him in his colleagues, some of these people

were killed after he came out of prison in 1993. Again, the country

was on its edge. His love for the goodness in people is so infectious.

In practical terms, how has that changed you? Are the things that you

have done, that you think... I founded a foundation. The reason I

did that is because of him, and because of my other mental. He was

our coach in the World Cup. We help kids get through school, kids who do

not have money. I do not think they would have done that. It has been

going for a while. You have? Sons. Nelson Mandela was the godfather.

What have you been telling them this week? We have been talking quite a

bit about it. I got pulled by one or the other winner is something on

television. They say, dad, have you seen this? They get it, they are 15

and 14. I thought they would not get it. It was a long time ago. They

still remember it. They are very blessed. This week of all weeks,

still remember it. They are very blessed. This week of all weeks

argue and optimistic man about South Africa? Absolutely optimistic. Very

much so. Francois Pienaar, Thank you.

We not expecting any major problems from the this week. It is looking

altogether a bit quieter. We have some weight and windy weather at the

moment. That is thanks to this weather front pushing its way into