Hussain Al-Shahristani - Deputy Prime Minister for Energy, Iraq HARDtalk

Welcome to hard tour, that are hard tour. My guess is in London to

attend an energy conference and to convince the world that his country

is not sliding back into civil war. Hussain Al-Shahristani is a ruck's

Deputy Prime Minister for energy. -- Iraq. Why is Iraq so close to

tearing itself apart in a renewal of sectarian confrontation?

Hussain Al-Shahristani, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you for the

invitation, it is or is a pleasure. Nice to have you back the programme,

you are here in London to sell a message that Iraq is ready to play a

role on the world stage as an energy giant. The next 20, 30 years. It is

ought of -- awfully difficult messages sell given what is

happening in your country. Not really, given Iraq reserves with oil

and gas, its potential and the need for oil in the world, it makes my

task not that difficult. It is true that Iraq is going through difficult

times as far as security is concerned, this is many because of

what is going on in Syria. That has not really affected our energy

development policies or what we have managed to accomplish, increased oil

production significantly, we have put more oil on the world market and

we have have continued to do so despite the security situation. The

problem is you have oversee oil industry for the best part of ten

years, five years ago you were telling me that a ruck's security

problems will a thing of the past. You tell me that a -- Iraq's

production would be up to 4.5 billion barrels per day. It is not

true. It is true that the security situation affects development of

oilfields. It has done so, we're not denying that, as a matter of fact,

last year 54 times our oil pipelines to Turkey have been attacked by

terrorists. That is an average of attack week. Yet, we have managed to

repair it and export 250,000 barrels to rid across Turkey to the

Mediterranean. In January 2008 you said oil can either unite Iraqis

into a prosperous democratic society or it can split Iraq into warring

factions. The fact is that there is no sign of Iraq uniting, there is

every sign that Iraq is sleeping into warring factions. The security

situation is not about oil policy. I'm not suggesting that. I am

suggesting that no amount of increased revenue from the oil

industry will change the fact on the ground which is your country, right

now, is right back on the brink of civil war. You need to put that in

context. We are living in a turbulent time in the region, that

is not very stable. What is happening in Syria is affecting Iraq

in this way. The security situation in Iraq is a result of what is

happening in Syria. Is that your contention? What we see in the --

Father Joe. Men with guns that of oil to Al Qaeda are controlling the

streets. You are saying that as a result of what is happening in

Syria? I'm not saying that, Syria is allowing these terrorists, many of

them are not Iraqi, they're coming across Syrian borders. We have more

than 600 kilometres of desert borders with Syria. They are quite

porous. The weapons that have been sent to these terrorist

organisations in Syria, I'm not talking about legitimate resistance

and the demands of the Syrian people, that is an issue for the

Syrians for themselves to handle, I am saying there are international

terrorists groups operating in Syria that are receiving arms and a lot of

those arms have been transferred into Iraq. There may be weapons and

there may be weapons and then maybe men right now who have infiltrated

from Syria, I don't dispute that is hardly possible. What you seem to be

ignoring is there had been a series of missteps and miscalculations by

your government which have lured over the past year with a sense of

inevitability to the extremists taking control of swathes of your

territory. You'll A I accept that the government has a responsibility

in managing the political system in the country. And accommodating all

of the political groups in the way process. There has been no

accommodation, your prime minister, your boss's perdition, the approach

he has taken to the Sunni population has led to this situation where not

just its grimmest -- extremist from outside but Sony people in those

towns and cities have said enough. We're not repaired to live under

this government and its repression any more. I have heard that story

from observers from outside of Iraq and from the Iraqi people. I have a

committee looking into the grievances of the demonstrators over

the last year and I have heard a lot of that but also I have heard

different stories. You cannot blame one person or one group for the

political problems of an emerging democracy after decades of

dictatorship. And sectarian divisions. You can say the wake

prime minister who has been in office for two terms that the buck

stops with you and you will be judged on your record trying to

bring all the different communities and sex inside Iraq together. --

sect 's. You talk about the committee you have been involved in.

That was set up after an assault in April to -- 2013 after 40 peaceful

Sunni protesters were killed by Mr al-Maliki's security forces. I wish

you would read a report of what happened there. I was a member of

that committee, I was not cheering. I was chairing the committee about

the demonstrators in Anbar province and elsewhere in Iraq. You only need

to read a report to see the allegations of illegal detentions,

of torture, of extrajudicial killing, conducted by your

government's security forces are legion. There have been some miss

calculations in the actions... That is not the right word,

miscalculations? This is a government that is allowing it

security forces to behave, frankly, like a sectarian militia. Abiding by

Noble whatsoever. I think you're going a bit extreme in judging what

has happened on the ground. I have been watching and they have been

very sensitive to any human rights abuses because I have been a victim

of it and I know what that would mean. The fact is, your government

-- no government, as much as they try and the good intentions they

have can solve a political crisis unless the various factions are

willing to sit and find a solution. That is acceptable to all parties.

Agreed. Sorry for the interruption, but you say there has to be a

willingness on the sunny side to sit down and talk. I say to you, if that

is your position, why on earth did the government security forces, for

example at the end of last year, rushing with their guns aloft,

arrest one of the leading MPs from the Sunni community in the process,

kill his brother and outrage the more moderate opinion within the

Sunni community. Why? Listen, you're trying to put it as if it is a Sunni

and Shia divide in Iraq. That is part of the story. There is also a

pretty -- political divide. There are different political opinions.

Trying to reduce the problem in Iraq to just a Sunni and assuming because

the implication is if the Sunnis are supporting the extremist abuse of Al

Qaeda. Those try to hijack society. I don't mean to imply that but what

I do mean to imply is there is wisdom in the words saying the

oppression displayed by al-Maliki's forces have impelled Al Qaeda

because he very forces that should have brought security and safety

have become part of the thread. He is entitled to his opinion. That is

his, that is what he says. As we speak, now, there is a problem in

Volusia where the Islamic state for Barack is controlling the city

centre. -- the Islamic state for Iraq. People are asking, calling on

the government to send in troops, knowing there could be casualties. A

bloodbath. Exactly, a bloodbath, they are asking the government to

get freedom from these extremists. It is not always a Sony-Shia divide.

There is an extremist idolater -- ideology that has built itself in

the Middle East. It is in Syria, it is in Iraq and in some north African

countries. The problem is that this ideology does not represent the

Sunni community and to assume these are the people is not doing justice

to the Sunnis themselves. Understood and you make plain the fact it is

dangerous to assume there is unity on either side of the divide. I put

the CU very bluntly, on the Shia side this argument, you are a Shia

just like a pro minister is, there is a division. I would say that your

reputation for being a moderate suggest to me you have actually real

concerns about the way Mr al-Maliki has handled his approach to the

Sunni community in your country. Yes? I have concern for the

divisions and political crisis is in the country. I do not think anyone

can be blamed or held responsible for what we are going through. When

your government arrests people, like elected MPs who are regarded as a

genuine representative of grievances. By doing that, you tell

the Sunni that you are not interested in power sharing, or real

dialogue. There was an arrest warrant from a judge. It was not a

government decision. Duty you think the courts are independent? To a

large extent. As far as I know it, the judiciary in Iraq is as

independent as in any democracy. I thought the deputy and a steep that

back -- the deputy Prime Minister would never be involved. A respect

the judgement he has passed. I live the work of human rights

individuals, who have spent many years going back to the Saddam era,

saying that the danger is that Iraqis entering a new era of

dictatorship. That is how she has described the way al-Maliki is

running his institutions. We are running elections in three months

time. People can vote for whichever government they want. If you have

any fear of an evolving dictatorship in Iraq, I can sympathise without

fear. The Iraqis have been through this. You spent more than a decade

in prison, so you know all too well. The only way to make sure that we do

not have a dictatorship, is to have fair elections. The people can

choose a government. Let me ask you some more strategic questions

regarding things beyond Iraq's borders. We have talked about Syria

already. You insist that the Syrian security situation has infected

Iraqis a serious way. If the situation in Syria becomes even more

unstable and the country does sink into complete chaos, how dangerous

will that be for the right. Could it spreads that complete instability

and chaos into Iraq? The two countries have a very similar

society. A society made of many sects and tribes and religion. Any

care to -- any chaotic situation in Syria will be seen in Iraq. We have

been careful not to allow that to happen. Does it make sense for the

right to play a role, allowing the Iranians elements to use your

airspace and Borders to back up the regime? Iraq was the first country

to point out to all concerned that the Syrian crisis cannot be settled

with military. We advised the Syrian government not to use arms against

their people. We wanted them to listen to the legitimate demands of

the people. And they did not listen? We want that use of arms by either

side will not reach any conclusion. After three years, the world

realises that there is no solution to this crisis. The only way out is

for all parties to sit together, work together, stop the bloodshed

immediately, ask foreign fighters to leave the country, allow

humanitarian aid, and conduct free elections. Let the Syrian people

choose their government. Unlike the rest of the Arab league, Iraq still

acknowledges the legitimacy of President Assad, yes or no? We

recognise all Arab governments as the status quo, as they are. You

still see President Assad as having absolute right to sit there in the

presidential palace? We are seeing that the Syrian government is in

charge of that country for the time being. The same is true about other

countries. There are violations. We do not judge the government. We do

not decide which is a legitimate government. The US is mulling over

whether to supply hellfire missiles, some drones, you have tanks, you

want more. You want more guns. Billions of dollars worth of arms. I

spoke to the former Defence Secretary. He said, we should only

supply military support, conditions on al-Maliki reaching out in a new

way to Sunni and other groups inside his own country and uniting the

country. Is that going to happen? Remoulding Iraq's Armed Forces,

supplying them with arms, has been a part of our strategic cooperation

with the US. Those weapons are not given to an individual. The army,

and rebuilding the army, is necessary for the fight against

terrorism. Terrorism is a serious issue in the Middle East in general.

Do you now regret failing to do a deal with the US to allow them to

keep some residual bases? Al-Maliki and the government said no. Was that

a mistake? We do not want manpower to fight terrorists. They have moved

into the desert. We have been overwhelmed with requests to

volunteer to fight the terrorists by a young Iraqi men. It is the women's

and training. We will come back to oil, it is your biggest

responsibility. Right now, the Kurdish regional government is

pushing through a pipeline to Turkey, against your instruction and

wishes. Will you do a deal to allow them to benefit from their Royal?

That oil is Iraqi oil. It has to be sold at market price. The revenue

has to be deposited, otherwise Iraq will be considered in breach of its

resolution. The revenue should be distributed amongst all Iraqis to

get the country united. These are not conditions, this is the way oil

should be exported. I am telling you, you know better than I do, that

last year, the Kurdish regional government signed a deal with

Turkey, and energy deal. Right now it looks as though oil from the

Kurdish region is going to go into Turkey and be sold on the

international market. I want to know what she will do about it. I will

tell you what they are telling us, they will not export oil unless an

agreement is reached with the Federal government in Baghdad. They

realise that it is Iraqi oil. The revenue from the sales should come

to the Iraqi budget. Are you telling me that a deal is about to be done

in this long-running dispute about who gets the oil revenues, how they

are shared? Is about to be solved? They are not clear that a deal is

about to be done, I am telling you that the government of Iraq has made

some proposals, which have been, from the Kurdish point of view, very

fair and balanced. They have asked for some time to consider the

proposal. With elections living in April, and Hussain Al-Shahristani

are wanting to run -- Hussain Al-Shahristani wanting to run, is

that the reason why you are all studies are receptive? Not at all.

We will not judge the election results. We will respect the

outcome, whatever it is, whoever wins. Iraqis could be through

difficult times, politically, socially and economically. We will

have to see if the Iraqi people decide to elect a group that can

really provide them with good government. That will be very good.

If they decide to go for sectarian parties, four warring factions and

so on, that is their choice. Nobody can do much about it. Which way do

you think they will go? I have confidence in the Iraqi people. They

have lived for millennia in harmony. They have always been a diversified

society. I have faith that they will eventually solve their problems,

live in peace, and Iraq will be a beacon of peace, stability, progress

and prosperity in the Middle East. We can only hope that that vision

come true. For now, thank you for being on HARDtalk.

We know which has already been a West January. Today has yet more

rain in the forecast. Heavy rain as this next low pressure area wines in

off the Atlantic, not just threatening rain, but snow. Not

without quite yet. Not for most of