Kavita Krishnan - Secretary, All India Progressive Women's Association HARDtalk


Kavita Krishnan - Secretary, All India Progressive Women's Association

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on Saturday. Police said a 23-year-old man died at the scene

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and a 20-year-old woman died later in hospital. Their families have

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been informed. Now it's time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to a special HARDtalk from India. I am in Delhi, the proud

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capital of the nation but also a city that over the past year has

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been tarnished by an association with sexual violence. You may

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remember that over a year ago, young female student died after a brutal

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gang rape. That prompted protests across this nation, people demanding

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the government take action to end gender violence. At the heart of

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that campaign, like guest today - women rights activists, Kavita

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Krishnan. What does India need to do to make this country safer and more

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equal for women. ? Kavita Krishnan welcome to HARDtalk.

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The brutal gang rape of the young woman in Delhi summer 13 months ago

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- do you believe it has proved some sort of watershed moment here? In

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some senses yes. I think it marked a moment when we became aware of a

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shift in people 's perception, at least, in a large section of people

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about the sexual violence and the phenomenon of victim blaming. We

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have had protest demanding punishment but what was new last

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year, there were young voices are especially, raising spontaneous

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slogans on the street against victim blaming, against the habit of saying

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that women should behave in April pick your way in order to be safe.

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-- particular way. Here in India, it was a great moment. It is

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interesting that politicians who did not get it at the beginning, and

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going back to the fallout and immediate aftermath of the gang

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rape, those politicians who did not get it were published like public

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opinion. The former Chief Minister talked about women who went out late

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at night were, to use words, the very adventurous. They punished her

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but the phenomenon of not getting it is much larger. Today, I am standing

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at the moment with the Chief Minister who has replaced who is

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using terminology... This indicates the politicians, even those who

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profess to be interested in human rights, have not really changed? It

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is a hard battle and it has brought home to me this moment because we

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have a newly properly elected government which has come on the

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back of a lot of aspirations of people and people expect change.

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They were talking about change. It was a Barack Obama moment. People

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were talking about change but that change comes and stops at the door

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of poetry are key. You have the same moralising comments that make the

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distinction between the start and the good woman. -- slut. This stroke

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-- of these slogans were race last year. In other words, you want

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equality not just protection. Genuine equality? In fact, that was

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the slogan raised last year. It said Felis freedom. The tech that the

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Felis freedom of women and also in gay people, transgender people,

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people who did not seem so respectable - all those vulnerable

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sections which raise buyers and discrimination. We ask for freedom

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Felis for them all. It is hard to be Felis when the backlash has been so

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extreme. In one online Internet, you were threatened with rape. Yes, and

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I realised since then that in social media it has not happened for the

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first time it has happened again. I do not fear those people who make

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the threat of social media but right now, I am more fearful of how the

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very issue of rape is being used to justify violence of women on other

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communities, four instant religious minorities - or to stigmatise young

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men, of consensual relationships of women with young men. The fear of

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rape, let me be clear, the fear of rape with the consensual

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relationship with men with oppressed classes, we have seen incredible

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violence being handed out to these minorities and religious minorities.

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I was seriously fearful to see that the slogans being used to stock up

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that violence was to keep our mothers and daughters safe from

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them. It is complicated. But there seems to be one truth that is

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relatively simple and that is that in India today, this system, I am

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thinking of policing, the nature of investigation and the judicial

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system, mitigate against women reporting rape and believing they

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would ultimately get justice - has that changed at all in the last

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year? They have been more people coming forward to report. I still

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think it is a rape is terribly unreported -- underreported. 24,000

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- only 5000 rapes in India. That figure cannot be credible given the

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size of the country and the systematic research that suggests

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vast numbers of women, vast numbers of women experience of rape and

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sexual assault yet most of them do not believe they can report it. The

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experiences of the last few months, of the women who have come forward,

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for example is at sexual harassment by powerful people, against Supreme

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Court judges and so on... To be clear, that is happening even today.

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That is happening and I think what was encouraging was that in a case

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of some of these instances, women could come forward, confide in male

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colleagues and expect and get support. But even in those

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instances, we are seeing this terrible clash of where the women

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who have complained of being called stooges of politicians, there

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questions are being raised about their character and it is a very,

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very hard. What have you actually achieved in the past year after all

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the campaign? Undercover interviews with police found 17 said they

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believed that the majority of rape claims were false and about

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consensual sex. Then we had the former police commissioner saying

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90% of rape claims were false. How do you change the police? It has to

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start with accountability. There is so little political will towards

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that. We have been talking about police reform and saying that police

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reform should mean less corruption in the police, freedom from

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political control but above all, it must mean that you make them

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accountable about what being inner constitution means and stands for.

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It means respect the human rights and women's and so on. Has it that

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started? Very, very little. Very little willingness to go that way. I

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do not just mean the police, the judiciary will stop in the past few

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months, we have seen sexist comments, talking about women who

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have premarital sex should not cry rape and that kind of thing. You

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have policeman displaying the kind of attitudes that unless a woman is

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battered to the point of nearly dying, she must be lying about being

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raped. This is the assumption that parades. One has to be personal in a

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way. You live in Delhi. If you had the terrible misfortune of being

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sexually assaulted, would you have sufficient faith in the police to go

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to them and expect them to fully investigate and deliver justice on

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your behalf? It is not a matter of faith will stop it is a matter of

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wanting to hold them accountable. In my case, of course, I would but what

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I am saying is that for when it -- for many women it is a hard choice.

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What is going to follow is a prolonged kind of humiliation. Even

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in order to achieve justice, you would have to approve your

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respectability, prove that you had some modesty all respectability,

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that was violated, essentially it becomes about York character from

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the police station right up to the courtroom. Changing that is a very

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hard thing in India. Are you being a little unfair to the authorities in

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the centre that because partly of the campaign that you and others

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have run the past year, there have been efforts to change particularly

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the judicial system whose speed up the process, fast track rape cases

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and also toughened up the penalties for a series of sex crimes and of

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rape will stop the Vernon commission came up with points and they are

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being implemented. They are accepting some of them, in terms of

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expanding the definition of rape but in many matters, it has gone against

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the spirit of what the commission recommended. The instance, we had to

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talk about Richard dies in -- recognising that men can also be

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raped, we wanted them to recognise homosexuality, to make the

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distinction between consensual homosexual relations and homosexual

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rape but they have not done that... Why it to you think, and we will

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talk in a moment about perhaps the battle to change Indian mindset,

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easy to wisely to insist that would one is talking about gender equality

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and sexual violence that one has to put the issues facing homosexuals on

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the very same table as those facing women who have been raped four

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example? I think absolutely, we must, because I think it is very

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important to recognise here that the same laws that relies homosexuality

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that talks about unnatural sex... I see that... I am sorry to interrupt

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but if you want to win hearts and minds of one particular issue -

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daddies the immediate challenge of your complaint of getting India to

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address the problem of violence against women - is it wise to run

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the campaign in the way... The Supreme Court has come into a bit of

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a shock recently. They have overturned the Delhi verdict that

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particular allies homosexuality and they assumed they would have a whole

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lot of support when I say that has been a shift in public perception,

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and I see that as an achievement for the movement, it is that the verdict

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of the Supreme Court which wreak relies homosexuality has been

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greeted across-the-board with huge protest. And not just on small

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struggling gay groups. Are you telling me there had been protesting

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India 's most remote villages, demanding a change of law on

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homosexuality? Not in remote villages but definitely in cities.

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There are elite. Not at all. Large numbers of people in the protests

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last year were not elite at all. They think differently which

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means... I'll tell you the barometer for this, most politicians relying

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on the religious right. The party that will be the next government in

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India. All the other parties have had to come out, they were timid

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about this, but they have come out and said that they believe it

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shouldn't be criminalised. These include political leaders... Even

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those that do not clearly something is changing. Let us put this

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conversation in the context of Indian tradition and the way India

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sees itself and sees its future. It seems to me that you are raising

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profound questions, not just about issues specifically to do with

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gender and gender-based law, but also about how women are treated in

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the home, within the legal system in terms of basic things like

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inheritance, and also about what happens inside Indian people 's

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hearts and minds when it comes to basic issues of whether men and

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women are seen as equal. You are raising all of this, no? I would

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like to say we are raising this in India because we are raising it

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here. I sense Solidarity. I've been told by activists in other countries

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including the UK, US and France and other places, that they feel a sense

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of strength when they see our struggle in India. I don't see this

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as only about changing Indian culture or Indian ways of looking at

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women. But at the Kintyre global sense of fixing women roles in

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certain ways. That's happening outside India as well. It's being

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reinforced by the economic policies we are seeing now unfortunately. You

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are having austerity measures, of course in India and I'll swear, and

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they are needing to tell women once again you should subscribe to roles

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and if you don't you're about mother will stop Ashmount elsewhere. --

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elsewhere. If we stick to the notion that you're challenging India in

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profound ways, just how negative your view of India is. Let me quote

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you words from Save the Children charity, and in India, girls are

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sold, married off from ten, burned alive through Gary disputes and

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young girls exploited and abused as domestic slave labour. -- domestic

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disputes. Is that the port of what it means to be female in India

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today's we need to recognise, of course there are terrible things

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happening. Is your view as dark as that? It seems profoundly negative.

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I have a dark view of what it means to be female in anywhere in the

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world. I don't think it's especially about India. Is not the same being a

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woman in the UK as it is in India. It is important to see the

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distinction. That's what were fighting to change. It's not so much

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women are victims here and not elsewhere, but about the fact that

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we are fighting the notion in India that women have to prove

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respectability in order to demand dignity, equality and so on. These

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are battles that are being fought in different parts of the world in

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different ways. In India, our emphasis is on challenging out car

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-- our caste system. White how do you get inside people 's heads and

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change their very basic views. Let me tell you something encouraging.

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There was a god man in India who enjoys a lot of support. He had

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heard something odious about the survivor that she should have called

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her attacker 's brother and could have taken the name of God and she

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could have been saved so something must have been wrong with her

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character. You asked about rural India, he visited Peru ruled

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character. You asked about rural rural village. 500 women came armed

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with rotten tomatoes and they were saying loud and clear, you are

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telling women they shouldn't wear certain kinds of. If you are going

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to impose those rules on women then we will tell meant either they wear

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the traditional garb or else we will beat you up. This is rural women

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talking about the right of young girls to wear jeans and use mobile

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phones. The encouraging thing to see is women aren't looking to be

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rescued in India, they are fighting back. We hope women fighting

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patriarchy elsewhere will try to interrogate their patriarchy is,

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rather than doing the easy thing of only recognising the patriarchy that

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lies here in India or Afghanistan. I see what you're saying but I am

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aware that people watching this might think that it's not quite as

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bad as it is in India. In recent survey said that India is the worst

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country in the world to be female. They look that different

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assessments. They claimed it was worse than Saudi Arabia. That seems

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very hard to give credibility to you or credence because you have had a

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female Prime Minister. In the 1970s, one of the most famous leaders the

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world has seen. You have women chief ministers. You have a substantial

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number of women politicians in leading positions. You have female

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professionals and eight powerful feminist movement. You can have that

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in Saudi Arabia. I think you could have some of that. You simply could

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not by law have that in Saudi Arabia. That's a different thing.

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The law means less to me than what it means about voices that are

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resisting patriarchy everywhere. The singling out of India or Saudi

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Arabia or Afghanistan isn't helpful in a way. We are fighting in India.

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What we need to interrogate is how... The help I would expect is

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the global institutions implicated in violence in India, multinational

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corporations coming here and women are resisting land grab our our

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subject to sexual violence. When you talk of the explication that comes

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with global capitalism I'm reminded that you are not just a women

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activists but also a senior figure in the Communist Party and I get a

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sense of that. Isn't there a contradiction for you, because the

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sort of India that you want to see is in some ways a more western or

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capitalist society. You focus on gender equality, individual

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liberties, in no way suggesting you might want to see India become more

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Westernised. I know our opponents on the Right would like to see this in

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terms of westernisation and Indianise Asian. I don't think

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that's the case. You want to see them become more westernised? When I

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see our right wing leaders talking about good rate and bad rape, I

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hear... Just answer my question. Do you see India, at your vision for

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India 's future becoming more westernised? I don't want to see our

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leaders make the remarks that Republican leaders in the US make.

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They talk about genuine and fall straight. I am trying to make the

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point that this is not about westernisation. They have odious

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attitudes also. They are told, if you were drunk, perhaps you aren't

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in a position to say yes or no to rape. You have that elsewhere. This

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is not about... It is about recognising specifically Indian ways

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in which patriarchy is justified. The way patriarchy is embodied here.

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We are fighting those ways. I don't see it being about making a backward

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India go the Western way. I see this as being a global fight against

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patriarchal attitudes and the systems, economic attitudes and so

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on that sustain it. A global fight. You could say you are embarking on a

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long and difficult journey. I wonder whether you believe, whether you

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have faith that the journey will get you to the place you want to be in

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terms of gender relations. You asked me at the start, what other changes

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you see and the real changes I see and that I appreciate is that I

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believe the fight is a long and hard won but the number of fighters here

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in India has expanded in the voices fighting have become stronger. We

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don't feel as alone as we once might have. The number of people joining

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the conversation is encouraging and I hope it happens outside India as

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well. Kavita Krishnan we have to end their, thank you. --there.

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