Cardinal Peter Turkson HARDtalk

make Victoria which is facing the worst conditions in five years. Now

it is time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. It is nearly a

year since a new Pope was installed but still the same problems dogged

the Catholic Church. A committee on the rights of the child has

criticised the Vatican over its failure to deal decisively with

child sexual abuse by priests. Gay-rights activists still attacked

the Churchward stands on homosexuality and the Vatican 's

finances have been under scrutiny and investigation. Last year

Cardinal Peter Turkson from Ghana was tipped to become the first black

Pope and at 65 he is young enough still to achieve that. He is calling

for financial reforms and action against poverty and inequality. But

does the Catholic Church have the moral authority to take a lead on

such issues? Cardinal Peter Turkson, welcome to

macro three. Thank you why do you say that the financial crisis was

part of a result of moral feelings? All financial transactions and

financial instruments, it takes a moral decision. It involves

decision-making and every decision-making is an expression of

morale at you. That is why we can extend consideration to everything

that happened then in an ethical way. You are advocating reform by

creating a global public authority and a global bank that will

consider, in particular, developing countries and their interests.

Essentially, the poor, and they may well be from developing countries

but even within developed countries, it is basically to have the

financial system that we have, to think about the marginalised, those

that it missed out. It is something that we can do, we can have an

inclusive system of economics and finance so that everybody gets

considered. That is very much the tone. He is a modest man who likes

to use public transport and will not live in splendour. At the end of

last year, in an exhortation, he said not to share your wealth with

the poor is to steal from them and take away their livelihood. It is

not our goods that we hold by the Bears. It sounds like Marxist

doctrine. The social doctrine of the Church, which provides guidance for

these operations and systems, is based on a couple of principles.

Apart from the affirmation of the dignity of every human person which

needs to be respected, there is much about the common good of people.

That means that we should be concerned about the well-being of

all of us. The Professor of economics at the University of

Buenos ivories, says is this an invitation to confiscate the riches

of the Vatican or is the Pope only referring to the riches outside of

the Vatican? The Vatican is rich, isn't it? What does it mean, the

Vatican is rich? Are you talking about the arts in the Vatican

Museum? Are you talking about the wealth of the diocese is spread

around the world? The Vatican made 90 million euros profit last year.

On the contributions you get from people and so on. So if... The

grandeur of the Catholic Church, the paintings, the fact that the Pope is

effectively a head of state. So when somebody like that Professor makes

the point it jars doesn't it? What the professor is overlooking is that

the Vatican, as the head of the Catholic Church, supports over

500,000 local churches around the world. These churches are not like

those in London or New York. Churches where the pastors and the

servants need to be supported. It is generally accepted that the aid

distributed around the world is through the offices of Catholic

agencies. You are not exactly a byword for fiscal prudence at the

Vatican? You have had your problems there. When the EU money-laundering

monitoring body reported, it gave a mixed report to the Vatican but

expressed surprise that regulators had not carried out more inspections

of the make Vatican Bank. There was an investigation in Italy because

some Italian businesses may have used that bank as a tax haven or a

fiscal paradise. This is something that we need to recognise. The

Vatican Bank, some would prefer to rip that they prefer to refer to it

as a financial institution, its presence in Italy, and the fact that

it did what it did was tempting for people who wanted to escape, and so

wanted to make use of the bank... Pope Francis does not know how the

scandal will end. It can end if, for example, the bank has a mixed staff,

from different parts of the world. They cannot be predominantly Italian

or some local group. If you have a mix of staff, that can be dealt

with. But to accept that there is a problem and that when you go about

and talk about... This is a problem for everybody. The financial

crisis, people look over your shoulder and wonder. There is no

denying the fact that an institution this old with structures this old

they have gathered moss. It is just fair enough to recognise that. Just

as we have, in the history of the Church, we are very familiar with

abuses and individual rights and challenging the Church to clean up

certain things. Whether you take it in the form of saints who agitate

for reform, or something about -- or something else, we know. There is no

human institution without failures. Looking at you personally, would it

be say that you are liberal on social and economic justice but

fairly orthodox on social matters like homosexuality? We are using

vocabulary which have attained meaning in different areas. In what

sense would you consider me liberal? You ask for an equitable

distribution of wealth. That would just be responsive to the social

concerns of the Church. What about being responsive to the concerns of

people who have the kind of sexuality that the Church does not

particularly condoned, particularly homosexuals. When Uganda discussed

its anti-gay bill, you said that the intensity of the reaction about gay

matters is probably commensurate with tradition. What do you mean? In

several traditional societies in Africa, there is nothing about the

same sex relations, they are not reckoned with. They are taboo. They

were not tolerated in society. That is what it means. It is still there.

Nigeria also legislated against this. It is a reflection of this

traditional sense. You say, let's understand that. The tormenting,

persecuting, imprisoning, killing of gay people in countries which is

going on in Africa, let us understand that? I am just

asking... When somebody comes asking about Wei group of people act in a

special way, it would be good to have people to understand the

anthropology is behind that. It is not the same as saying that it is

justifiable or whatever else. But how can you try to end the

persecution of gay people and tolerated elsewhere. If a group of

people in society, place such a high premium on childbirth as a source of

increase of the local population and because in those local societies

that suffer so much, infant mortality is so high, for a

community like that increasing its membership is hugely important.

Therefore when any lives cannot do that it is problematic. What about

female genital mutilation? Also deeply embedded. You going to say,

let understand that? What is necessary to understand, I mean,

there is nobody that can understand the future of the world without

having a certain amount of historical understanding. That

understanding easy to consider the situation now and only then can you

say, in the light of what we know, are was still going to go on in this

way? That's where you make the decision. It sounds like you're

trying to explain and to some extent excuse those practices. Explanation

is not the same as justification, there is a difference in that. When,

for example, we are talking about this, let's talk about the slave

trade. It is something that happened. In that time in history,

people found reason to do that. But we condemn it. You are not

condemning for example... You have said that Africa's hostility to

homosexuality will protect it from child sex abuse. You have been

criticised for saying that, Cardinal, because you are conflating

two things. It is not conflated. It is people moving between lines of

argument and thinking. All of this started when a gentleman came to me

asking about this and they said, this is the situation, the rights of

these people need to be safeguarded and respected. But then the

questions about why we have certain African communities that do this,

this is a traditional viewpoint. Saying that does not mean that we

must hang on to that viewpoint. It is useful for an outsider to

understand why people can have that view. You must regret conflating the

two. The English Archbishop said that homosexuality is irrelevant to

the child abuse problem. We've been very careful to keep the two issues

well apart. I accept that. Talking about child sexual abuse, we have

just had the publication of the report by the UN, which has been

interrogating Vatican officials about child sexual abuse, which has

been a huge scandal overshadowing the Catholic Church. To take one

example, it says that it wants the Vatican to open its files on the

kind of child sex abuse that has gone on. Why won't the Vatican do

that? Why won't the Vatican be more transparent about the child sexual

abuse cases listed Mark we may not readily conclude -- readily conclude

that the Vatican keeps files on sex abuse around the world. The Vatican

recognises the need for help for all of the victims. Shown interest in

cool operating to help victims of sexual abuse. If there are files on

any of these, they can be found in the Darya sees. That is where the

perpetrators are to be found. --dioces. But the fact it can can

say, we want to see the finals. -- Vatican. People want an answer for

the question, does the church report abuses by Chris to the secular law

enforcement authorities in the country 's? That that they do

definitely. But that is not the reports we have seen. We have heard

about parish priests being moved on to another parish and even to

another country. When we get to talking about this, a certain amount

of understanding is to be... The Vatican WriteNow, with the

understanding it has obvious problem, has agreed to col operate

with any body set up for this. -- cooperate. It recognises civil

authorities of wherever a priest lives, ensures they are responsible

and in charge of this. Any perpetrator or anyone who abuses a

child to face the State of wherever he is. But the arguments are not

convincing because this report has just been issued and it says that

the Church has implemented policies that have led to the continuation of

the abuse and the impunity and perpetrators. They have investigated

this. What are the policies? (CROSSTALK) I go back and refer to

certain history. This is the case, the reporters and those who made the

report, for those of you who would understand, certainly, with the

passage of time, our understanding of this phenomenon on has increased

and changed. There was a time that when bishops got cases of priest

being abusive of children, they thought it could be dealt with by

taking the person for treatment at a centre. Based on our understanding

at that time, they thought the issue could be done with and taken care of

by certain priests... That's how they do it. How do you do it now, do

you remove priests from their church? No. The situation has

improved and it is recognised that a treatment centre doesn't quite deal

with the issue. The understanding has changed. What do you do? Bishops

don't transfer priests... Do you remove them from their post in the

church? They will not. Will they be removed? Removed means... Will they

be removed from their post? Yes they will and when they do that the dish

has the new process to go through. If the feeling is that he will be

later sized, he will be. I think a bishop will want to help the priest

himself. Do you think categorically, now, all the

criticism you have had from victim support groups, like the director

of... We must insist on tangible action to help vulnerable children

and protect their bodies. Not vague pledges that protect the reputation

of this institution. Can I ask you cardinal, is the church ready once

and for all to take steps to ensure that never again will a child be

abused by a member of the Catholic Church -- clergy and if they are,

will you take action? The answer is yes. It was not obliged to sign up

to this it accepted to do it. They have made it clear, they said that

the protection of children is the top. It set up a commission in the

Vatican headed Ivy Archbishop of Boston, -- by the, to ensure this is

taken care of in due order with regard for due legal... Where you

have members and victims support groups on this panel? -- will use.

Sure, there are experts on that. Do you accept that critics have said

and the issue of sexuality and the church 's few on abuse has

overshadowed the good work the Catholic Church does all over the

world? It hasn't... Has it overshadowed? With due respect for

victims of abuse who need to be helped in all senses and in all

cases, that has certainly been the case, that the good work of the

church has been overshadowed in Finch is only by this, is true. In

the intestinal. But the church attaches great importance to the

well-being of the is. Good work doesn't need to be... It is like the

view you have, you don't it out at the same time. Talking of good

work, the good work the church should be engaged in, interfaith

dialogue is very important. You haven't contributed much to this

have you smack arguably, you have operated to the detriment of good

interfaith dialogue between Muslims and Christians. That's not true.

When I was in Ghana, before I came to the Vatican, I was the president

of the world Congress for religious peace, and my vice president was a

Muslim. He might be in London at this time for a conference.

Subsequently, I was the head of a peace Council whose vice president

was Muslim. Can explain why I put to you, because when I put that -- in

2012 you showed a you Tube video called Muslim Demographics. It was

alarmist. The video said that by 2050 fronts will be an Islamic

republic and there are those of you -- Frantz. You were criticised...

That video clip was sent to me by another bishop. The title in the

mail did not say that. The title of the video clip that was sent to me

was demographic problems. I was using it to demonstrate demographic

albums in Europe. You are being alarmist, saying they would be more

Muslims in future. This is what I am trying to say. It was a

demonstration of the low fertility weight -- fertility rate and the

concern was that... The contraceptive culture of western

Europe compared with Muslims breeding, that is alarmist. That's

not the point. When the local population drops, it means that any

newcomer into that society will not be well received. It was to ensure

that the birth rate in Europe does not lead to... How can you show this

kind of you Tube clip. You are a senior cardinal. You should have

access to better advice than that. That is the case. Because I trusted

another bishop who sent me that. As I tried to say, it was not... You

should have checked it. I should have trusted the source -- checked

the source. You will have to be careful in the future. How can you

go without trusting people? Do you think these controversies we have

discussed have dented your chances of ever becoming the first black

Pope? This has never been my vision or desire. I just want to be of

service to God 's people. It is not a question of a chance for it chance

for this or that, that's not an issue for me. Cardinal Peter Turkson

thank you for coming onto HARDtalk. Some dry weather through the week

ahead. The news does not yet much better. -- get. Still spells of

heavy rain at times. Ahead. Still spells of heavy rain and more