Barnaba Marial Benjamin - Foreign Minister, South Sudan HARDtalk


Barnaba Marial Benjamin - Foreign Minister, South Sudan

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Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur. Two years after its birth as

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a nation, South Sudan is in danger of tearing itself apart. Weeks of

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bloody clashes between government forces loyal to the President and

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rebels who are backing the former vice president have left 10,000 dead

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and three quarters of a million people homeless. My guest is South

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Sudan's 's Foreign Minister, Barnaba Marial Benjamin. Can peace talks

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salvage unity in the wreckage of a brutal power struggle?

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Barnaba Marial Benjamin, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much. It is

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great to have a representative of the South Sudan government. I want

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to begin by quoting words uttered by President Obama. Your country, South

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Sudan, he said the present is now is the time for the country's leaders

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to show courage and leadership. That is not happening, is it? Absolutely.

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Leadership has been shown. Within 30 days of the crisis, the government

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and rebels have been able to sign a cessation of hostilities. And the

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status of detainees. That is important if it means anything. It

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is. It is important you get results after 20 years. But here you are, a

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young state, two old going into a crisis and 30 days later, we have an

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agreement. The 23rd of January ceasefire signed, we have had

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violent, killings of civilians and the most terrible atrocities since

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the 23rd of January. We now have a situation where the rebels say they

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will not attend the peace talks because they accuse the government

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forces of persistent violations. The government is absolutely committed.

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To see that peace and stability come to the people. We have gone into

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this completely committed to the cessation of hostilities. We are

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observing that because the President of the Republic of South Sudan, who

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is the commander in chief of the SPLA, has what the command and

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control. On our side, side,...It is the rebels who are been breaking the

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ceasefire. You could not be more blunt about the President being the

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man in charge of the armed forces so we must then hold him responsible

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for the fact that on February the first, your armed forces went into

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Leer in the north of the country and according to many witnesses and

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sources, burned down buildings, attacked civilians and left the town

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in ruins. And that was nine days after the ceasefire. That is

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probably not correct. You must know that the country has got one

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sovereignty. An elected democratic government has its constitutional

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mandate. It doesn't have a mandate to attack hospitals. Not at all. I

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do not think so. Are you seriously proposing to me that the 80

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seriously ill people who were forced to flee into the bush from the

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hospital as government forces are approached it, burning and looting,

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are you suggesting that was staged by the rebels? The government is a

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responsible government that has authority to protect the lives of

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its citizens and its infrastructure. Usually in a war situation where

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citizens are frightened and people run about, it cannot be true that

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the government would do that. You are making something complicated

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that is quite simple. It was the home town of Riek Machar, the leader

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of the opposition forces and former vice president. Government forces

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assaulted that town, there is no dispute about that. It was and is

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now proud to say they are in control. They are in control of the

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whole country. It is not an issue of control. Whether you allow a rebel

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group to control Brighton or London? When faced with a civil conflict,

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are you suggesting that it is legitimate for your armed forces to

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go into civilian areas to burn, to loot, rape, to murder as we have

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seen? I am saying the government forces have not raped or looted as

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you said. There are isolated cases. There are the rebels in the towns,

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they have a looted, raped and cause a loss of destruction. It is not the

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government. Let me tell you one thing, most of the rebel forces are

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still in government uniform in most of the cases. I can assure you that

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the government soldiers cannot engage in that process because these

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are responsible soldiers, trained by the government to protect the

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citizens of that country. Maybe they could be isolated cases. There are

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cases. You call them isolated. Let us focus specifically on the

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peace talks and the allegations that your government continues to use

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violence. That is one particular angle. That is the continued

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presence on your territory of between 1500 and 2000 heavily armed

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Ugandan troops. Why are they there? They were there as part of an

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African task force that consisted of the SPLA, the Ugandan army with a

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contingent of American Marines. Can I finish? The Ugandan Air Force has

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been bombing rebel territory. There is no Ugandan air What aircraft did

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they use? Force bombing. They possess many aircraft and they have

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been using them. I would like to assure you that the presence of

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Ugandan forces were there in 2008 to get hold of the resistance Army. In

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fact, that is a function. Remember this, the Ugandan forces who were

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doing their duty, mandated by the African Union also assisted in

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securing important infrastructure and in Juba airport.

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It made important roads in securing infrastructure. I can only imagine

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your embarrassment if you insist that the Ugandan forces have been

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there since 2008 and their function has not changed. I can only imagine

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your embarrassment when out of Kampala, the Ugandan Defence Force

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spokesman issued the following statement last month. He said, the

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UPDF has captured Bor. No, Bor was captured by government forces. I am

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telling you as Foreign Minister, I am telling you the truth.

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I have explained the presence of Ugandan forces. Don't forget, South

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Sudan is an independent state, international law has the authority

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to make agreements with any other country. Something tells me you are

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not telling the truth. Unless it is the Ugandans. I can see your motive

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might be that you are thoroughly embarrassed. Not at all. We are

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happy that the Ugandan troops are in South Sudan. They have been there

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since 2008 doing important functions. During this incident,

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they were able to allow foreign nationals to be evacuated from the

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airport. They have had that credit for a function they have done in

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order to save lives. It was also possible for relief to be flown into

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Juba during a time of war. We should concentrate on the positive impact.

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You say that but so many colleagues of yours were talking to you, trying

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to resolve the terrible crisis in your country, take a very different

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view. The Norwegian Foreign Minister said the President of Uganda must

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start a process of pulling out his troops. There is a whole list of

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human rights groups that agree. They have accused the Ugandan Armed

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Forces of destroying South Sudan. The international community is

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insistent that Ugandan forces must leave. It is not that Ugandan troops

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are there. There are also United Nations troops in South Sudan. They

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are all foreign forces. They are not active as part of war. The Ugandan

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forces are. So you're not prepared to say that

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as part of this negotiation process in your country, you are not

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prepared to say that Ugandan forces will leave. We are saying Ugandan

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forces will not participate in any active war that the South Sudan

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republic is conducting. They are in the south Sudan for responsibility.

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They will definitely go back where they will continue to pursue the

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resistance Army. What about other mercenaries? The rebels say they

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have evidence of you using other rebel fighters on your side

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including people from Darfur. And the Democratic Republic of Congo. We

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are not involved in that. The rebel leader himself has been a vice

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resident since five months ago. He knows the truth about the issue of

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Darfur. There are no rebels from Darfur. He was indeed vice president

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until he was fired along with the entire cabinet of the time. Every

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single minister was removed. It is interesting, isn't it that Salva

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Kiir, your boss insists that he is a Democrat. That he wants to work by

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consensus and yet he fired his entire government and now,

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opposition politicians are locked up and facing treason charges. The

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reshuffle happens everywhere. It is a reshuffle! The government was

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eliminated. Not as a whole. He got rid of every minister. You are

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smiling because you got a job as a result of it. I was reappointed. You

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exhibited no loyalty. He decided the big tent was not working. Not all.

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The reshuffle is a normal democratic process. That would not engage in to

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any rebellion. I admire your... They were under suspicion. They were

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investigated. That is why they were released. Four senior politicians

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face treason charges. They are being investigated. For treason. The

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Minister of Justice will give the President the complete report of

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what that investigation should be if they are found there is no more

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evidence of what they are being investigated for they will be

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released. You say this is about a coup. One that was plotted by Doctor

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Riek Machar and his colleagues. Unfortunate for you that the

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Americans have concluded, we have not seen any evidence that this was

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a coup. Well, you know, in Africa, when someone tries to change a

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democratically elected government using force, it is described as a

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coup. That's what it is. When the President orders his guards to be

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disarmed, how can that be considered a coup? That was an incorrect

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report. There was no truth to that. It was a concocted story. What

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happened was that there was an attempted coup by attacking the

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Presidential guards. It reverted into what you see today. Riek Machar

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claims he is the leader. If it was not the coup... He has never

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suggested this was a coup. He has denied it on every occasion. He says

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your President has turned himself into a dictator. What happened last

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summer was one sign that Riek Machar has no interest in democracy, he has

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become an authoritarian leader who is interested in ensuring his own

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power. -- Salva Kiir. This is the authority that gives him the power

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to reshuffle. It is not the numbers that determine whether you remove

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your government, a reshuffle is a reshuffle in any democratic

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government. The government is a collation of many parties. We have

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six other political parties who are our partners in this government.

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President Salva Kiir was nominated with a majority. It has to be said

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there is an ethnic element to what is happening in your country. We

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have talked about the personalities of Riek Machar and President Salva

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Kiir. Clearly, there are political differences. But there is an

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important ethnic distinction, and what we have seen in the last eight

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weeks also, increasingly, is hatred and violence between the Dinka

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community from which the President comes, and the Nuer community from

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which Riek Machar comes. You are a Nuer. You have seen armed forces go

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into Nuer neighbourhoods and kill civilians. Not just in the tens but

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in the hundreds. How do you feel about that? It was in Juba in

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particular. After the attacks, some of the most indiscriminate soldiers

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turned and attacked them, we don't deny that. They are being held

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accountable. An investigation continues. Over 100 people have been

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arrested. Let me finish. (CROSSTALK). How can you sit in a

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government where ethnic killings on a terrible scale have taken place?

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In some areas, including Nuer soldiers who are angry, this is a

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limited amount within the rebel forces. There is no real ethnic

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tension and killing between the citizens who are Dinka. That doesn't

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seem to represent the facts. If you look back, this didn't begin eight

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weeks ago, if you look at reports coming from Human Rights Watch in

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Africa, you will see a catalogue of allegations, in detail, of ethnic

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killings in which the South Sudan armed forces were implicated going

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back to May, June and July of last year, the very time in which you

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felt able to sit in the government as a senior minister. That is why

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the Government has taken the decision to form an investigation

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committee and hold these people accountable.

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We are talking about many months of the most serious allegations of

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crimes against humanity to put it bluntly.

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You as Foreign Minister sit in your office, seeing many of your own

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people being killed and don't appear to have a problem. Of course there

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is a problem. That is why the government I am in have taken

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serious steps to investigate these people and hold them accountable.

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That is the way to identify these elements and that is the right way

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to go about it. There is no other way but to hold them accountable.

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The government have been able to form a high level committee, led by

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the former chief justice, so these cases, where human rights are

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abused, are investigated. There is a responsibility. There is a

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government that condemns it. We condemn it strongly. We don't

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encourage ethnic crime. They will be held accountable. Lets think about

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the international context, your country is dependent on oil revenues

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to the extent of 80% of your GDP, and 98% of government revenue comes

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from oil. Production has fallen since the conflict began in mid-

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December. Can you tell the outside world that it is safe to invest and

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place resources in South Sudan today? This country is bigger than

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France. It's not only oil, you can think of any mineral, there is

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tremendous cultural potential. Extensive livestock. We have

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wildlife. (CROSSTALK). You also have 10,000

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killed. China looks at the situation in your country and they have poured

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billions, at least 8-10 billion, your real interests are deeply

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worried. The investment will come. That is why we are pursuing peace.

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To bring stability. We want resources in this territory to be

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used for the benefit of the people. I can assure people that South Sudan

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is a place for investment. One month ago, we had a successful economic

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conference conducted and I am sure the peace process is moving in a

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positive way and investment will come. China is guaranteed its

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investment. You fit the definition of a supreme optimist. The US envoy

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said there is only so much outside parties can do. Only so much, in the

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end, South Sudan needs to create more democratic institutions.

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Respect the rule of law, independent judiciary and a non- ethnic

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military. You don't respect your own constitution. We do indeed. I would

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invite you to come to South Sudan and have a feel on the ground rather

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than read reports that come from various sectors in the media. Seeing

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is believing. I can tell you it is a country that is two years old,

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trying to build its institutions. It needs to be supported, not punished.

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It needs help and assistance and that is what should come. Can you

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say to me the peace talks, that seem stalled, can and will yield an

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agreement where President Salva Kiir and Riek Machar will work together

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to get South Sudan out of the crisis? We have come a long way. Our

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people have suffered for so long. They have persevered with

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resilience. We will be able to resolve our differences and put the

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country back on the road once more. Barnaba Marial Benjamin, thank you

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for being on HARDtalk. Thank you. Thank you.

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Once again, we are looking at appalling weather for the UK during

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the rest

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