Barnaba Marial Benjamin - Foreign Minister, South Sudan HARDtalk

Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur. Two years after its birth as

a nation, South Sudan is in danger of tearing itself apart. Weeks of

bloody clashes between government forces loyal to the President and

rebels who are backing the former vice president have left 10,000 dead

and three quarters of a million people homeless. My guest is South

Sudan's 's Foreign Minister, Barnaba Marial Benjamin. Can peace talks

salvage unity in the wreckage of a brutal power struggle?

Barnaba Marial Benjamin, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much. It is

great to have a representative of the South Sudan government. I want

to begin by quoting words uttered by President Obama. Your country, South

Sudan, he said the present is now is the time for the country's leaders

to show courage and leadership. That is not happening, is it? Absolutely.

Leadership has been shown. Within 30 days of the crisis, the government

and rebels have been able to sign a cessation of hostilities. And the

status of detainees. That is important if it means anything. It

is. It is important you get results after 20 years. But here you are, a

young state, two old going into a crisis and 30 days later, we have an

agreement. The 23rd of January ceasefire signed, we have had

violent, killings of civilians and the most terrible atrocities since

the 23rd of January. We now have a situation where the rebels say they

will not attend the peace talks because they accuse the government

forces of persistent violations. The government is absolutely committed.

To see that peace and stability come to the people. We have gone into

this completely committed to the cessation of hostilities. We are

observing that because the President of the Republic of South Sudan, who

is the commander in chief of the SPLA, has what the command and

control. On our side, side,...It is the rebels who are been breaking the

ceasefire. You could not be more blunt about the President being the

man in charge of the armed forces so we must then hold him responsible

for the fact that on February the first, your armed forces went into

Leer in the north of the country and according to many witnesses and

sources, burned down buildings, attacked civilians and left the town

in ruins. And that was nine days after the ceasefire. That is

probably not correct. You must know that the country has got one

sovereignty. An elected democratic government has its constitutional

mandate. It doesn't have a mandate to attack hospitals. Not at all. I

do not think so. Are you seriously proposing to me that the 80

seriously ill people who were forced to flee into the bush from the

hospital as government forces are approached it, burning and looting,

are you suggesting that was staged by the rebels? The government is a

responsible government that has authority to protect the lives of

its citizens and its infrastructure. Usually in a war situation where

citizens are frightened and people run about, it cannot be true that

the government would do that. You are making something complicated

that is quite simple. It was the home town of Riek Machar, the leader

of the opposition forces and former vice president. Government forces

assaulted that town, there is no dispute about that. It was and is

now proud to say they are in control. They are in control of the

whole country. It is not an issue of control. Whether you allow a rebel

group to control Brighton or London? When faced with a civil conflict,

are you suggesting that it is legitimate for your armed forces to

go into civilian areas to burn, to loot, rape, to murder as we have

seen? I am saying the government forces have not raped or looted as

you said. There are isolated cases. There are the rebels in the towns,

they have a looted, raped and cause a loss of destruction. It is not the

government. Let me tell you one thing, most of the rebel forces are

still in government uniform in most of the cases. I can assure you that

the government soldiers cannot engage in that process because these

are responsible soldiers, trained by the government to protect the

citizens of that country. Maybe they could be isolated cases. There are

cases. You call them isolated. Let us focus specifically on the

peace talks and the allegations that your government continues to use

violence. That is one particular angle. That is the continued

presence on your territory of between 1500 and 2000 heavily armed

Ugandan troops. Why are they there? They were there as part of an

African task force that consisted of the SPLA, the Ugandan army with a

contingent of American Marines. Can I finish? The Ugandan Air Force has

been bombing rebel territory. There is no Ugandan air What aircraft did

they use? Force bombing. They possess many aircraft and they have

been using them. I would like to assure you that the presence of

Ugandan forces were there in 2008 to get hold of the resistance Army. In

fact, that is a function. Remember this, the Ugandan forces who were

doing their duty, mandated by the African Union also assisted in

securing important infrastructure and in Juba airport.

It made important roads in securing infrastructure. I can only imagine

your embarrassment if you insist that the Ugandan forces have been

there since 2008 and their function has not changed. I can only imagine

your embarrassment when out of Kampala, the Ugandan Defence Force

spokesman issued the following statement last month. He said, the

UPDF has captured Bor. No, Bor was captured by government forces. I am

telling you as Foreign Minister, I am telling you the truth.

I have explained the presence of Ugandan forces. Don't forget, South

Sudan is an independent state, international law has the authority

to make agreements with any other country. Something tells me you are

not telling the truth. Unless it is the Ugandans. I can see your motive

might be that you are thoroughly embarrassed. Not at all. We are

happy that the Ugandan troops are in South Sudan. They have been there

since 2008 doing important functions. During this incident,

they were able to allow foreign nationals to be evacuated from the

airport. They have had that credit for a function they have done in

order to save lives. It was also possible for relief to be flown into

Juba during a time of war. We should concentrate on the positive impact.

You say that but so many colleagues of yours were talking to you, trying

to resolve the terrible crisis in your country, take a very different

view. The Norwegian Foreign Minister said the President of Uganda must

start a process of pulling out his troops. There is a whole list of

human rights groups that agree. They have accused the Ugandan Armed

Forces of destroying South Sudan. The international community is

insistent that Ugandan forces must leave. It is not that Ugandan troops

are there. There are also United Nations troops in South Sudan. They

are all foreign forces. They are not active as part of war. The Ugandan

forces are. So you're not prepared to say that

as part of this negotiation process in your country, you are not

prepared to say that Ugandan forces will leave. We are saying Ugandan

forces will not participate in any active war that the South Sudan

republic is conducting. They are in the south Sudan for responsibility.

They will definitely go back where they will continue to pursue the

resistance Army. What about other mercenaries? The rebels say they

have evidence of you using other rebel fighters on your side

including people from Darfur. And the Democratic Republic of Congo. We

are not involved in that. The rebel leader himself has been a vice

resident since five months ago. He knows the truth about the issue of

Darfur. There are no rebels from Darfur. He was indeed vice president

until he was fired along with the entire cabinet of the time. Every

single minister was removed. It is interesting, isn't it that Salva

Kiir, your boss insists that he is a Democrat. That he wants to work by

consensus and yet he fired his entire government and now,

opposition politicians are locked up and facing treason charges. The

reshuffle happens everywhere. It is a reshuffle! The government was

eliminated. Not as a whole. He got rid of every minister. You are

smiling because you got a job as a result of it. I was reappointed. You

exhibited no loyalty. He decided the big tent was not working. Not all.

The reshuffle is a normal democratic process. That would not engage in to

any rebellion. I admire your... They were under suspicion. They were

investigated. That is why they were released. Four senior politicians

face treason charges. They are being investigated. For treason. The

Minister of Justice will give the President the complete report of

what that investigation should be if they are found there is no more

evidence of what they are being investigated for they will be

released. You say this is about a coup. One that was plotted by Doctor

Riek Machar and his colleagues. Unfortunate for you that the

Americans have concluded, we have not seen any evidence that this was

a coup. Well, you know, in Africa, when someone tries to change a

democratically elected government using force, it is described as a

coup. That's what it is. When the President orders his guards to be

disarmed, how can that be considered a coup? That was an incorrect

report. There was no truth to that. It was a concocted story. What

happened was that there was an attempted coup by attacking the

Presidential guards. It reverted into what you see today. Riek Machar

claims he is the leader. If it was not the coup... He has never

suggested this was a coup. He has denied it on every occasion. He says

your President has turned himself into a dictator. What happened last

summer was one sign that Riek Machar has no interest in democracy, he has

become an authoritarian leader who is interested in ensuring his own

power. -- Salva Kiir. This is the authority that gives him the power

to reshuffle. It is not the numbers that determine whether you remove

your government, a reshuffle is a reshuffle in any democratic

government. The government is a collation of many parties. We have

six other political parties who are our partners in this government.

President Salva Kiir was nominated with a majority. It has to be said

there is an ethnic element to what is happening in your country. We

have talked about the personalities of Riek Machar and President Salva

Kiir. Clearly, there are political differences. But there is an

important ethnic distinction, and what we have seen in the last eight

weeks also, increasingly, is hatred and violence between the Dinka

community from which the President comes, and the Nuer community from

which Riek Machar comes. You are a Nuer. You have seen armed forces go

into Nuer neighbourhoods and kill civilians. Not just in the tens but

in the hundreds. How do you feel about that? It was in Juba in

particular. After the attacks, some of the most indiscriminate soldiers

turned and attacked them, we don't deny that. They are being held

accountable. An investigation continues. Over 100 people have been

arrested. Let me finish. (CROSSTALK). How can you sit in a

government where ethnic killings on a terrible scale have taken place?

In some areas, including Nuer soldiers who are angry, this is a

limited amount within the rebel forces. There is no real ethnic

tension and killing between the citizens who are Dinka. That doesn't

seem to represent the facts. If you look back, this didn't begin eight

weeks ago, if you look at reports coming from Human Rights Watch in

Africa, you will see a catalogue of allegations, in detail, of ethnic

killings in which the South Sudan armed forces were implicated going

back to May, June and July of last year, the very time in which you

felt able to sit in the government as a senior minister. That is why

the Government has taken the decision to form an investigation

committee and hold these people accountable.

We are talking about many months of the most serious allegations of

crimes against humanity to put it bluntly.

You as Foreign Minister sit in your office, seeing many of your own

people being killed and don't appear to have a problem. Of course there

is a problem. That is why the government I am in have taken

serious steps to investigate these people and hold them accountable.

That is the way to identify these elements and that is the right way

to go about it. There is no other way but to hold them accountable.

The government have been able to form a high level committee, led by

the former chief justice, so these cases, where human rights are

abused, are investigated. There is a responsibility. There is a

government that condemns it. We condemn it strongly. We don't

encourage ethnic crime. They will be held accountable. Lets think about

the international context, your country is dependent on oil revenues

to the extent of 80% of your GDP, and 98% of government revenue comes

from oil. Production has fallen since the conflict began in mid-

December. Can you tell the outside world that it is safe to invest and

place resources in South Sudan today? This country is bigger than

France. It's not only oil, you can think of any mineral, there is

tremendous cultural potential. Extensive livestock. We have

wildlife. (CROSSTALK). You also have 10,000

killed. China looks at the situation in your country and they have poured

billions, at least 8-10 billion, your real interests are deeply

worried. The investment will come. That is why we are pursuing peace.

To bring stability. We want resources in this territory to be

used for the benefit of the people. I can assure people that South Sudan

is a place for investment. One month ago, we had a successful economic

conference conducted and I am sure the peace process is moving in a

positive way and investment will come. China is guaranteed its

investment. You fit the definition of a supreme optimist. The US envoy

said there is only so much outside parties can do. Only so much, in the

end, South Sudan needs to create more democratic institutions.

Respect the rule of law, independent judiciary and a non- ethnic

military. You don't respect your own constitution. We do indeed. I would

invite you to come to South Sudan and have a feel on the ground rather

than read reports that come from various sectors in the media. Seeing

is believing. I can tell you it is a country that is two years old,

trying to build its institutions. It needs to be supported, not punished.

It needs help and assistance and that is what should come. Can you

say to me the peace talks, that seem stalled, can and will yield an

agreement where President Salva Kiir and Riek Machar will work together

to get South Sudan out of the crisis? We have come a long way. Our

people have suffered for so long. They have persevered with

resilience. We will be able to resolve our differences and put the

country back on the road once more. Barnaba Marial Benjamin, thank you

for being on HARDtalk. Thank you. Thank you.

Once again, we are looking at appalling weather for the UK during

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