Lazaro Nyalandu - Minister for Natural Resources and Tourism, Tanzania HARDtalk

both inside and outside Afghanistan. Now it is time for HARDtalk. Welcome

to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur. Whether the lifetimes of our

children, the African elephant may be extinct. It could be hunted to

death. Such is the continued lower of ivory. Despite international

efforts to ban the trade. In Tanzania, poachers have been killing

an average of 30 elephants per day. The government there says it will

end the slaughter. But how? My guest is Lazaro Nyalandu. The Minister for

Natural Resources and Tourism in Tanzania. Is human greed destined to

kill off African elephants? Lazaro Nyalandu, welcome to

HARDtalk. Thank you. Let us begin by talking about one of Tanzania's

greatest natural assets, the elephant. Your elephant population.

Would you accept that Tanzania has an appalling record over the last

decade of failing to protect the elephant? The country of Tanzania

has gone the distance in protecting the wildlife. Historically, in 1961,

when we gained independence, Tanzania had 350,000 elephants.

Because of the enormous poaching at River Dee that took lace in the 80s,

the number of elephants dropped to a little over 50,000. -- activity. The

military were ordered into rain in the trade. The number of 110

thousand elephants came up. It shows the effort that we have employed to

be able to protect the elephant. There is a careful use of statistics

there. I am more interested in the last few years. Since 2007, the

conservationist in your country so the elephant population has almost

halved. You only have between 60 and 70,000 elephants left. Numbers are

declining, and have declined dramatically. The elephant poaching

has reached unprecedented situation. As you know, the

statistics. Because of the enormous appetite for ivory in China, in

countries like Vietnam, Japan, you name it, the number of elephants

being killed every day have completely increased. That is the

reason why it the government of the President of Tanzania took the

position as early as last October to send in the military. We were the

first African country to order in military operations within our own

borders. So that we would be able to secure the elephants. And other wild

species from poachers. We will get to the future in a moment. I want

you to consider how it is that your government failed so badly in the

very recent past. In 2010, 2012, we know your own records show that more

than 10,000 elephants were killed in a year. That is more than 30 per

day. How could your government let that happen Osemwegie Semi Eboigbe

two things have happened. One, the poaching level had become completely

unprecedented. It is your job to stop that. Secondly we have gone the

distance as a government. We took extraordinary measures. Including

the use in 2011 and 2010, the president ordered the use of the

military through an intelligence led operation. Very very successful. We

intercepted, and I want to tell you this, we impounded in our country,

in our own borders, 12.2 tonnes of illegal ivory. We caught 300 people

who were arrested last year in the judicial system. What I am saying is

that we have gone the distance. You keep telling me that you have gone

the distance, but the elephants in your country are not being

adequately protected. You talk about the few times of ivory that you have

managed to impound, we know from the catchments of ivory in Asia, Hong

Kong in particular, that tonnes and tonnes of ivory from Tanzania is

getting through. It is going to those dealers and traffickers in

Asia. Stephen, what I would like to say is the battle for elephants is

waging on every minute we speak. Every single day. The Tanzanian

military and intelligence agencies are working. Either way, we have

lost 25 rave men and women in the line of duty. These suffered loss of

life, and because of this, the government is putting unprecedented

effort. And without this effort, there would be absolutely not a

single elephant left. What I would like the world to understand is that

we would like the world to come together. We would like the entire

world community to ask these market countries to please stop the ivory.

Every time somebody somewhere in China is wearing an ivory products,

they need to understand a aided poachers to put a bullet on the head

of an elephant. Maybe, rather than focusing on something that you in

Tanzania can't directly influence , the demand side in Asia, maybe you

should focus on the supply side. That is the fact that the ivory

poaching business in your country involves senior police, and security

officials. It involves senior politicians, it involves big

businessmen. Why did you tackle that? It is particularly interesting

to note that the government of Tanzania have taken extreme

measures. We have put behind us very senior politicians. -- behind bars.

Who? We have people in custody, let me finish. Our law makes no

difference between an individual and a young guy. If you are involved in

poaching, we will come after you. Last year, these statistics, when we

spoke to Prince Charles, 320 persons. From China, from Tanzania,

have been arrested. A full measure of our law. These are the efforts

that the world needs to understand. We are taking these battles very

seriously. You keep telling you that. I would love you to tell me

who are these very senior politicians who have paid the price.

Who have been convicted of involvement in the poaching network?

Who are they? The names of 320 people, I wouldn't remember them. I

don't need 320 names, I would just like to pin down, in your phrase,

the senior politicians who have been nailed for involvement in this

crime. I will tell you two for example. We fired, from my

department, I took the initiative to fire 27 senior officials who were

involved in these activities. One of them, for example, was responsible

for the entire party. These are not small people these are responsible

for wildlife protection. These are people with a mandate to protect the

wildlife. They are being taken to court. With respect, that isn't the

level are thought you were addressing. We cannot forget that

your predecessor as minister responsible for antipoaching

activities has said that he was determined to take on a business

that he said involved rich people and politicians who form a very

sophisticated network. I want to know what you are going to do about

the elite businessmen and the politicians who your own predecessor

says are absolutely in the thick of this poaching network? I again want

to say we have the names, of the politicians, and when I say

politicians, I mean very senior people with whom we are

investigating. As soon as the investigations... The network in

Tanzania says there are people going to the very top. We know what he

means. He means people close to the ruler of your country, the

president. You telling me that you believe that there are people going

all the way to the very top who are involved in this business? The

president of Tanzania is the man whose heart is for conservation. He

is the master, Chief protector of the wildlife. He is personally

involved in everyday activity in terms of conservation. He has been

at the forefront of assisting the conservation effort. We have just

established on the figures, the last five years have been a disaster. He

has been the president supervising a disaster for the elephant deletion

of your country. What can one conclude about that? You need to

understand that the past five years have been a disastrous year for

elephants globally. Tanzania included. Because of enormous demand

from everywhere in the world, we have taken measures as a country, we

have protected elephants, and from 2011 and 2012, 2013, we have

arrested so many senior people. Every time people would say who are

the senior people? Last week, before I came, we announced the names of

320 people. Some of them are members of the European Union. The poaching

have no race, no religion, no greed. These are greedy people from

all over the world. They are pursuing that demise of the

elephants. The president of Tanzania has pledged to take this battle to

the enemy. We are taking this battle to the corners of Tanzania. Wherever

the poaching is happening, we are going to be there. You have made a

lot of points, hang on. I want to ask a very simple question. Why did

the President at the Prime Minister fire the man who used to have your

job, responsible for antipoaching measures? He had made it plain that

he threw his operation was going to take on the poachers in a new way?

Why was he then fired? Let me make this clear. He, together with three

other ministers, defence, Home Affairs and livestock Minister took

political responsibility following the botched operation which was

alleged to have breached human rights restrictions. We have a

responsibility to ensure that those concerns are absolutely addressed.

As part of that, the president of Tanzania in December 2013 made an

announcement to establish the judicial commission of enquiry to

look at these allegations. By the way we have to go back and send in

the military to our vast territories to defeat these poachers. Because of

that, because of the operation, and allegations of human rights that

were raised, the Minister and three other ministers took political

responsibility. I wanted to mention, and to make this point very clear.

To many people globally have no idea how big this country is. 55,000

square kilometres. How many game Rangers do we have? 320. The point

is... You have hundreds of game Rangers, trying to control this last

territory, and you can't convince anyone around the world that you

have anything like sufficient resources. We do, we will put every

resource we have at use. We are scaling up in terms of boots on the

ground. More men and women on the ground. We are making sure we

improve the training. We want to get additional training. We are likely

to use drone technology in the future. If you think of Serengeti

National Park, the National Parks and Tanzania, they are over 57,000

square kilometres. They are like a couple of European countries. They

are vast territories. I have some knowledge myself of how vast the

territory is. The problem is not easy. But it would suggest it is.

But it is a question of priorities. Unless you pay your Game ranger? The

man on the ground who has to first report what you might see as

suspicious activity, who is actually the point man, trying to protect the

offence. How much are they paid? With the system, 51,000 square

kilometres is covered by some of the best paid game rangers in Africa.

The third level is game rangers and the director of wildlife in

Tanzania. These are quite poorly paid. How much are they paid? I'm

getting that. By the end of November this year, I have proposed new

legislation. We are restructuring the entire game rangers. Game

rangers in Tanzania will have the same type of pay and remuneration.

This will be scaled up. We are going to do everything we can to make sure

the scale up their pay. It seems extraordinary. In one of the best

paying countries in Africa is not the world, your salary is more than

80,000 US dollars plus allowances. Over 100,000 US dollars per annum.

You pay your park rangers, who are the focus, the frontline of this

particular problem, the peasants assistance wages. -- you pay them

subsistence wages. Tanzania is taking teaching seriously. The

President of Tanzania himself has invested his own pride and

leadership to make sure he leads us into this battle in the world

community. They are appreciative of what we are doing. If I may say, we

are the largest single African country, not only with the best in

terms of the World Heritage sites, with the Serengeti, Mount

Kilimanjaro, the reserves, the conservation area, this is the

point. This is a place with Zanzibar. Who else has Zanzibar in

the world? We are inviting people to come to see these resting places.

Importantly, we want the world to join hands with us. Conservation is

about the world. We are the custodians. No doubt about that.

What needs to believe is that you are credible. You say you will do

everything to protect this endangered species. Let me quote

you. A final point on the politics of this. An opposition spokesman on

your portfolio said the government is doing nothing because some of the

people who are supposed to be salting this problem are in fact a

part of the problem. It is important to say that everything said by the

opposition in the UK against a Conservative government were true,

this country would be in a me. The point is, we are doing everything we

can. -- mayhem. And a politician like that understands what is

happening. It is important to scale up everything. We have assets,

including improving the way we use the communities. In Tanzania, the

community policing wildlife is very best results. They are

participating. We have the best intelligence to arrest the bad guys.

They are members of the community with the intelligence network. All

of the government machinery is and assets and teams working together

are winning the battle. -- efforts. One of the key discussion areas in

the ivory trade is what happens to the ivory which is impounded,

captured the antipoaching operation? For many years, it has been

stockpiled by governments who have kept it and then actually asked the

right to sell it on a cold conditions to boost the public

revenue. Yes. How much I've read that your government business in its

stockpile? 118,000 tonnes. That is a lot. That is worth billions of

dollars. Between 50 and 60 million US dollars. That is the estimated

price. But this is the point. We kept the ivory stockpile in two

forms. One is illegal ivory. When the elephant eyes of old age or

natural causes, we keep the ivory. -- legal. The most important thing

is that... Has outlined how much you have got. The director of

environment investigation agency says the best thing to do with the

global stockpile of ivory is to destroy it all. That is the only way

you can entirely delegitimise the ivory trade. You prepare to do that?

During a conference, the President of Tanzania led African leaders to

demand a complete total ban of ivory. He said, legal ivory must be

banned. Illegal ivory must be bad. Did he destroyed you will destroy

his stockpile? -- did he say? Go back to the first point. The

President of Chad and Ethiopia... A moratorium. A suspension of sales of

your stockpile. He did say that he would in public destroy it or burn

it and get rid of the ivory forever. This is to his credit. One president

said Tanzania is now putting it stockpile beyond economic use. This

is the first time ever in terms of the policy would have changed. We

pledged to the world we are not going to put our stockpile as part

of economic benefit whatsoever. We are fighting teaching. I am turning

a corner. Tanzania's reputation. He accept what has happened in

Tanzania, you are Ground Zero, the worst cases elephant poaching in the

whole of Africa, it been terrible for your country's image. The world

must understand this is important. At the centre of the fight against

elephant poaching has been in Tanzania. The government has taken

extra measures. The only time a country in Africa when the regime

change for democracy. The point is, that the military to change what was

happening in the bush. The President ordered the whole military to fight

the purchase. This is the only country in Africa to have taken it a

military to go fight a battle within their own country. Winning this

battle. We got over 2000 weapons. Military grade weapons used by

poachers. We are saving lives, not only elephants' people's lives. A

positive spin. Your predecessor lost his job. He believed it was because

he challenged vested interests who are in the thick of the poaching

business. When you were his deputy, you said that big names inside the

Cabinet, the army, the authority and police are implicated in the

poaching network. These were your words. Which matters more to you?

Keeping your job or being true to taking on the poaching? The first

point is my predecessor took political responsibility together

with three other ministers. We discussed that. The point that your

predecessor was he was serious about tackling the purchase. You serious

as well? Are you prepared to make a stand that might involve taking on

the most powerful interests in your country? We make the distinctions

between those who poach and those who support poaching, those involved

in the laundering and those might be of big premise and political clout.

We are taking everybody to the full measure of law. We will win this

battle. This is an issue we will revisit the future. But for now,

thank you, Lazaro Nyalandu for joining me on HARDtalk. Thank you.

The mild winter will turn warmer on Monday. Temperatures close to 15

degrees in some spots. Typically, wet and windy weather eastwards

through the night. Today, a mixture of just about everything. Sunshine,

almost spring-like warmth, a few lively showers. Showers the most