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and a civil liberties organisation she worked for in the 1970s. Ed | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
Miliband says she has his full support. Now, it's time for | :00:00. | :00:12. | |
HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. After the | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
revolutionary tumult in Ukraine, what comes next? The country is | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
financially crippled, internally divided and a cockpit of tension | :00:20. | :00:28. | |
between Moscow and the West. Who can hold Ukraine together? Tonight, I | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
speak to Eugenia Tymoshenko. Her mother Yulia is the former prime | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
minister, newly released from prison and widely seen as a powerful | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
contender for Ukraine's presidency. Her name has pulling power, but is | :00:41. | :00:42. | |
Yulia Tymoshenko what Ukraine needs? Yulia Tymoshenko what Ukraine needs? | :00:43. | :01:23. | |
Welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you so much. It's great to be here. Well, | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
you have been through an extraordinary week. Extraordinary | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
for your country and, of course, for your family as well. Tell me what it | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
has been like to live through it. Well, of course it has been a very | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
long fight. It's not just the last 2.5 years. It's actually been four | :01:45. | :01:50. | |
years since Yanukovych came to power and started his repression against | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
the opposition, to imprison opposition leaders and others to | :01:56. | :02:03. | |
make his coup d'etat and start his attack on civil society and | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
journalists and slowly built up his dictatorship. Of course, just a few | :02:08. | :02:14. | |
days ago when the new majority in the parliament, the constitutional | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
majority, voted for my mother's immediate release, it was | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
unbelievable. I thought this moment would never arrive. So much effort | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
was put through not just for my mother's freedom but for the freedom | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
of Ukraine from the risk of authoritarianism, freedom of Ukraine | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
from the post`Soviet corrupt elites from the legacy, and finally, we | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
could see that probably the way forward towards a European future is | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
paved now and is being paid. We will get to those big issues in the | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
course of this interview. But just tell me about the release of your | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
mother. As you say, it all happened so quickly. The parliament voted to | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
have her immediately released from prison and not long afterwards, | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
there she was in Independence Square behind you. Tell me what that was | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
all like formal point of view. Well, of course, the first day of voting | :03:14. | :03:21. | |
took place and we saw that it was a constitutional majority. We were | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
never sure of that bipartisan support would support her immediate | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
release and those people that were viewed by many as being enemies of | :03:30. | :03:36. | |
the opposition. They realised and came out in the open. It was so | :03:37. | :03:39. | |
emotional when this vote finally happened. Then after a few minutes, | :03:40. | :03:47. | |
we actually realised that her life had been in danger in that place, in | :03:48. | :03:58. | |
that stronghold, where it was very risky to leave her for a long time | :03:59. | :04:08. | |
given that the presidential administration directly controls the | :04:09. | :04:17. | |
penitential system straight down to her guards. It was a very stressful | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
time of my life and then I saw her in the airport in Kiev and she was | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
in a wheelchair, surrounded by so many people greeting her, wearing a | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
bullet`proof jacket, believe it or not, because we understand the | :04:33. | :04:41. | |
situation here and she is still a dangerous politician for the regime, | :04:42. | :04:43. | |
which is still breathing. Another big emotion when she `` was when she | :04:44. | :04:50. | |
saw her mother and she had not seen her mother for three years and she | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
had not been able to see her while she was on hunger strike, when she | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
was being beaten, while she was under this pressure. Her mother was | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
always there, barely surviving and waiting for her. The family reunion | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
happened and of course we are thankful most of all to the people | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
at Maidan, who fought for this victory and who died under the | :05:14. | :05:21. | |
bullets. There should not have been such a high cost for such political | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
changes to happen. It should have been done much earlier and these | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
changes should have been without blood. For those of us who have been | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
used to seeing photographs of your mother while she has been in prison, | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
when she came out, she looked frail. But she seemed absolutely determined | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
to address the crowd with you by her side in Independence Square as soon | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
as she possibly could. Is that a signal from her to the nation that | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
she is absolutely determined to play a big political role? You know, she | :05:55. | :06:01. | |
has never actually left politics or the political fight. She has been | :06:02. | :06:09. | |
2.5 years in prison and even though she was always isolated and under | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
pressure, she always kept in touch with the opposition and tried to | :06:15. | :06:16. | |
keep in touch with people. She managed to unite the opposition | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
before the last elections so they could stand as a single front and | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
she watched over the last months with great support and devastation | :06:28. | :06:34. | |
for the people who died through the violent and were used by the regime | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
in this stand`off. She watched the great courage of Ukrainian people. | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
These feelings fulfilled her so much and she wants to use this | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
opportunity to get out and speak to people and tell them how proud she | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
was to be Ukrainian and how grateful she was for what they have done to | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
free their country. So, of course, it has been very emotional for her, | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
the welcome at Maidan, and I think that people were greeting her, | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
saying she was a hero. At the same time, it was a very sad day and that | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
continues because there are now days of mourning for those who died and | :07:15. | :07:21. | |
she, of course, mentioned that, saying that the first priority is to | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
pay tribute to those who died by doing everything possible to change | :07:25. | :07:30. | |
this place for the better. It seems to me that she had a choice when she | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
went to Independence Square, to Maidan, to make that address. She | :07:36. | :07:42. | |
could have struck a note of harm and conciliation or she could have in a | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
sense roused the crowd with a very populist and somewhat angry message. | :07:48. | :07:55. | |
`` calm and conciliation. It seems she did the latter. One thing she | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
said was if we let people who shop bullets into the heart, if we | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
forgive them, it will be our shame forever. Do you think that was the | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
right message at the right time? Well, I think that Maidan here and | :08:09. | :08:15. | |
the people here... I was just passing on the street where people | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
were killed by bullets of the police. Thousands, thousands of | :08:20. | :08:27. | |
flowers. Hundreds of people. Hiding behind shields of thin metal and | :08:28. | :08:35. | |
wood. Shot up to five times. At least five bullet shots through | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
them. And the whole world saw this horrible picture of murder. And my | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
mother was also sitting there, watching and crying. And not only | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
Ukrainians were devastated by this and shocked. Many European leaders | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
said the next day that Yanukovych's hands were covered in blood, as were | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
those who encouraged and allowed such murders against people. And | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
here, Maidan will not feel justice until those people are brought to | :09:07. | :09:17. | |
the criminal punishment for those murders. Even Konchesky killed less | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
people than Yanukovych during this up people. `` during this up evil. | :09:22. | :09:33. | |
Sure, but justice and the rule of law... We know right now in Kiev and | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
other parts of Ukraine, there is a form of vigilantes street justice | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
being meted out. Those who are deemed to have been supporters of | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
Yanukovych are being pulled out of cars and beaten up. There are some | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
reports that the former chief of staff of Yanukovych has been injured | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
in an attack. That surely cannot be good for Ukraine's immediate future. | :09:58. | :10:06. | |
And she completely agrees. Apart from this message that you quoted, | :10:07. | :10:14. | |
she says that now is the time also for the people who stood in Maidan, | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
for those who were standing under the bullets, to guarantee that the | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
unity of Ukraine is a reality, that we move forward while paying tribute | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
and honoured to these people by punishing those who are | :10:34. | :10:35. | |
responsible. At the time, she says this is a new Ukraine and a new | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
Ukraine needs change and this change cannot only be provided by | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
politicians. She has apologised for that and the mistakes of inaction. | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
She says the Ukrainian people are wise enough to lead their country | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
without violence. That is why now, she is meeting opposition leaders | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
day and night, together with the leaders of the civil society from | :11:01. | :11:07. | |
East and West, from the former government and from the opposition, | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
trying to build this platform of unity for the people of Ukraine to | :11:14. | :11:20. | |
move forward. And today, when she met Catherine Ashton, she mentioned | :11:21. | :11:28. | |
the priorities that she and the other leaders agreed to. And they | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
are that Maidan will not leave until they feel that justice is done for | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
those who were killing their people on the streets, and second, that | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
what is being formed as a government of national unity, and the whole | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
opposition is making sure that the leaders of the civil society are | :11:49. | :11:57. | |
included in a maximum we in the construction of the new political | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
system. Next, we need the financial and economic help to really have | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
Ukraine survive. Because Yanukovych left it in a devastating economic | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
state. Let me ask you some blunt and simple questions. You talk about the | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
need for national unity and the need for different political forces to | :12:18. | :12:20. | |
come together. Simply, does your mother intended to run for the | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
presidency? We know that the election is scheduled for the 25th | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
of May. Will she be a candidate? So far, she has not made any direct | :12:31. | :12:40. | |
announcement about going for prime minister or a president. She has not | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
mentioned political positions. She has done this so that, for sure, now | :12:45. | :12:52. | |
is not the time to do so. At the moment, there is emergency work | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
needed to follow through the priorities that I mentioned before. | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
And of course, we are still first of all morning our dead, the heroes of | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
Ukraine. We have to do our most to do what they feel just. And then | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
talk about political positions. At the same time, Maidan and the people | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
of Ukraine, the majority, ask for early elections. Presidential and | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
parliamentary elections. The government has already voted for | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
presidential elections, for the elections of Mao 's. This process is | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
on, but so far, she has not made any statement. I appreciate that. We | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
know the process is on. Vitali Klitschko, for example, has | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
announced he will be a candidate representing his opposition movement | :13:41. | :13:43. | |
in the election. Your mother is going to have to make a decision | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
soon. I just wonder, and I put this to you bluntly, even though I am | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
aware of what she has been through in the recent past, do you think | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
your mother is aware there is a strong feeling in the country that | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
she is not the right person to take Ukraine forward? That she is too | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
tainted by the past, by allegations of corruption, by being a member of | :14:05. | :14:11. | |
the old economic elite to be an effective, new figure in Ukraine's | :14:12. | :14:24. | |
politics? She has never been accused of corruption or private gain. She | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
has never been accused of these things. By the political leaders of | :14:30. | :14:37. | |
the world that investigated all the background before making such | :14:38. | :14:43. | |
statements. I'm referring to the charges on which she was convicted | :14:44. | :14:51. | |
in 2011, I am talking about the fact that if you go back to the mid`19 | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
90s, she was known in Ukraine as the gas princess. She made a fortune and | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
nobody knows how much it was, it was many millions of dollars. Because of | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
her access to Ukraine's gas resources. One of her closest | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
associates was convicted of serious financial crimes in the United | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
States. Many Ukrainians leave that because of that record she is not | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
the pit `` bright person to take your country forward? Via broadly | :15:20. | :15:29. | |
been through this to say, she was a businesswoman connected, she had a | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
corporation in D9 to ease, all the businesses had to deal with | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
politicians. She was the one which was on the top of her business | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
career, refused to be a businesswoman. She left the | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
corporation, the corporation was destroyed because she refused to be | :15:48. | :15:54. | |
part of corrupt schemes. Then she became a Member of Parliament. 17 | :15:55. | :16:02. | |
years ago, she was never considered an oligarch. She was never | :16:03. | :16:04. | |
considered to have the fortunes of those who owned television channels. | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
These conversations were rejected by the California State District Court | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
back in 2004 and she was tried to be dirt. This was denied by the courts | :16:16. | :16:27. | |
and never any more brought back. Only by oligarch channels in | :16:28. | :16:34. | |
Ukraine. These allegations are in the past now. I understand she has | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
enemies, but there are independent observers who have looked at the | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
political situation and reached conclusions about your mother. One | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
observer said my sense is that independent Square we can see behind | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
you want is a new class of people, politicians. Clean people. Part of | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
this movement was agreement clipped Chrissie? That is for sure. That is | :17:03. | :17:09. | |
why people, thousands, hundreds of thousands of people came to greet my | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
mother at Maidan. Hundreds of thousands of people called for her | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
freedom, saying read to Yulia Tymoshenko, every time I walked on | :17:20. | :17:26. | |
the stage. People who voted for her a supporting her as well? You are | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
with your mother on the stage and this is what the Wall Street journal | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
reported from the scene when your mother made her speech? The journal | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
said, when she offered an apology on behalf of all politicians saying | :17:42. | :17:44. | |
they had not been worthy of you, the people, and she pledged to change | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
that, pockets of people in the crowd called out to your mother, we do not | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
believe you. She does not have the support of the Maidan. It would not | :17:56. | :18:05. | |
say so. I think we are now starting the new European page where people | :18:06. | :18:08. | |
should be open and met for their opinions. No politician in Europe | :18:09. | :18:19. | |
has 100% support or even 60% support by people. Of course, we are now | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
entering the new Aero when people can express their opinions freely. | :18:25. | :18:27. | |
They can criticise and they are not afraid to be beaten. And repressed. | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
My mother when she was Prime Minister after she was put to jail, | :18:33. | :18:40. | |
and then released when the President said he had no allegations against | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
her and she was just political. She never took revenge on him when she | :18:45. | :18:47. | |
was Prime Minister. She never took revenge against anyone. Now when a | :18:48. | :18:57. | |
new opportunity comes for the freedom and critical elections, | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
people will choose to vote with their support. As she has stepped | :19:03. | :19:08. | |
out of prison, there were no provocations against her. And those | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
who try to discredit her, understand she is a very important figure. And | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
a competitor to some opposition leaders. She spoke to all of them | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
and she said she will appeal to people who she feels will support | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
her. The true key for the change as you might support in the democratic | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
world is a free and fair election. I will run through two of the biggest | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
challenges facing Ukraine? One, internal divisions. In the east and | :19:39. | :19:41. | |
south of the country, where many people look towards Ross `` Mark | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
Moscow where they speak Russian and are ethnically Russian in the | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
Crimea, there are misgivings about what has happened in TF. Others your | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
mother in ten to reach out to those people and politicians like Vladimir | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
Putin in Moscow as well? My mother does not want to take a single out | :20:05. | :20:12. | |
roll in despite for this political process to change the country. She | :20:13. | :20:20. | |
has been very clear that before she united opposition she wants to act | :20:21. | :20:23. | |
within the Opposition with politicians and civil society who | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
respect her and welcomed her back to this process. Now it is a task, not | :20:29. | :20:34. | |
only of politicians but of the people at Maidan who should really | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
put together the forces to unite Ukraine, to start this unification. | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
It has started already when the new majority was founded from the | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
presidential defection, embers of Parliament to the Opposition. It is | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
starting and it is a very difficult process. The European `` the | :20:54. | :20:59. | |
European leaders can play this unifying role. Vladimir Putin said | :21:00. | :21:08. | |
your mother was someone who he felt comfortable dealing with. Has she | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
made any attempt to make contact with Vladimir Putin? She has never | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
tempted to contact them. While their relationship was one of equals and | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
it was when she was Prime Minister, and he was Prime Minister, they | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
discussed the interests of their own countries on the basis of respect, | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
mutual respect. As soon as my mother left prison, she made sure she | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
thanked the leaders of the democratic world who with their with | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
her, supporting her and fighting for her freedom as well as the people | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
here and opposition leaders. Ukraine, and she believes Ukraine | :21:48. | :21:56. | |
needs to find the way to peaceful economic coexistence. Of course, | :21:57. | :21:59. | |
Ukrainian progress with all the neighbours it has. But not just by | :22:00. | :22:06. | |
or risking integrity of Ukraine. She or risking integrity of Ukraine. She | :22:07. | :22:13. | |
never changed her opinions. She has been consistent through her | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
political career. She very much respect that. To be clear about the | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
planning of your mother, she said when she came out of prison, the | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
future of Ukraine had to be in Europe. Your mother wants ultimately | :22:28. | :22:30. | |
to see Ukraine inside the European Union? I think today when meeting | :22:31. | :22:39. | |
Baroness Ashton, she clearly said, as soon as the national unity | :22:40. | :22:46. | |
government is formed, and the financial habit has been proposed by | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
the democratic world, the next step very much demanded here are which is | :22:53. | :22:59. | |
why Maidan came to be was to sign such an agreement. She said we need | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
to take that step`by`step. You came panned for years to get the freedom | :23:05. | :23:07. | |
of your mother, you have now spent a few days with her, everything from | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
this conversation leads me to believe your mother will run for | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
president? Am I correct. Do you think she will? I think it is not | :23:17. | :23:27. | |
really the time to announce such political decisions. As a daughter, | :23:28. | :23:35. | |
I want my mother first to be healthy and she agreed, of course, to go by | :23:36. | :23:42. | |
invitation of Angela Merkel to a clinic to get better. That is what I | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
wanted to do. Feel she should do that to protect her help. I think | :23:49. | :23:54. | |
all other statements that she should make politically, would follow | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
together with that. She made long consultations already with the | :24:01. | :24:03. | |
tightly clutch cover and all the leaders of the Opposition who stood | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
here at Maidan with others. They will make a very unified, very | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
consolidated, constructive decision and you will hear soon about this. | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
Eugenia Tymoshenko, thank you for joining us from TF. `` Kiev. | :24:18. | :24:44. | |
A cold night out there compared with last night. A chilly start to your | :24:45. | :24:52. | |
Wednesday morning. A touch of frost possible or country and upland | :24:53. | :24:54. | |
areas. | :24:55. | :24:55. |