Ricardo Alarcon - President, Cuban National Assembly, 1993 - 2013 HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Zainab Badawi. At the zenith of his career,

he was described as the third most powerful figure in Cuba after the

Castro brothers. Until 2013, Ricardo Alarcon was president of Cuba's

parliament, the National Assembly, and is a veteran on the political

and diplomatic scene. He's a former Foreign Minister and long-time

ambassador for Cuba to the United Nations. He still wields a great

deal of influence and now spends most of his time campaigning for the

release of three Cubans jailed in the US for spying. Isn't it time the

US and Cuba buried the hatchet and normalised relations?

Ricardo Alarcon, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. What is Cuba

prepared to do to end a long stalemate with the US, which imposed

an economic embargo and broke off diplomatic relations in the 1960s?

We are prepared to sit down with them on an equal footing and talk

about our differences. I think that it is the West that has to listen to

the rest of the world, to the countries in the Western Hemisphere,

and to its own public opinion. The last survey from Washington showed

that the vast majority of Americans, especially and curiously enough,

those living in southern Florida, in other words, a big number of Cubans,

64% of the population in Dade County, Miami, are against the

embargo against Cuba and are in favour of normalisation of

relations. Barack Obama in 2009 after he became

president said, I want to turn the page with Cuba and I want warmer

ties with them. Do you see that happening? Unfortunately, that is

one of his promises that has not been fulfilled. He shook hands with

President Raul Castro at Nelson Mandela's funeral. Everybody saw

that. They are polite, well-educated human beings and they say hello to

each other. That is the way it should be. Isn't it more than that?

Would George Bush have ever done anything like that with Fidel

Castro? It was an important symbol, wasn't it? President Obama has

changed the style of authority. He is completely different from his

predecessor. He has listened to the people of Miami by facilitating

travel for Cuban-Americans to Cuba, but still he continues to forbid

that to American-Americans. President Raul Castro has been

quoted in December of last year that if we really want to move our

bilateral relations forward, we will have to learn to respect our

differences, talking about the US. If not, he says, we are ready to

wait another 55 years in the same situation. Really? Isn't that just

bluster? Well, it's a metaphor to reflect the feelings and strength of

belief of the population. The fact is that the Cuban people have

resisted for 54 years, which means it is not just the first generation

of the revolution but their children and their grandchildren. The main

point is that that policy has long been defeated. It's a failed policy.

That's the worst part of it. But you just said the Cuban population was

behind that sentiment that President Raul Castro said. Of course, it's

difficult to gauge public opinion in Cuba, but I can give you one

example. I won't name him, but one retired state worker said that when

he heard this, he is not ready for more of the same situation. He is 72

and would like to see light at the end of the tunnel before he dies.

There must be many more like him who want to see normalised relations and

the end to the embargo. My dear lady, I would love to live another

50 years even if it was under the American embargo, but I don't think

such a long time will be necessary. It will be very difficult for the US

to continue this social policy in complete isolation. They are the

ones who are completely isolated in the Western Hemisphere regarding

Cuba. Havana was the venue last January of a head of state

conference attended by everybody in the Western Hemisphere. The

community of Latin American and Caribbean States does not include

the US or Canada. It is a Latin American and Caribbean group and it

is presided over by Cuba. What isolation are they talking about?

Why do you think the US takes this position on Cuba? You have been to

the US. I think that the main problem is that for the US, Cuba is

not a big problem. It's a minor thing. It's a very little island

close to their shores and the US can resist being condemned every year at

the UN. So what? Do you think that there will be a normalisation in

diplomatic relations between Cuba and the US? I do believe that. I

don't think that a policy that is not rational and is not to the

benefit of the world can last forever. -- benefit to the one who

imposed it. How soon until we might see real change, do you think?

Maybe... I cannot be sure because I don't know what will happen in the

US in the next few years. Let's look at one big change that has happened

in Cuba. Raul Castro succeeded his brother, Fidel Castro, as president

in 2008 and in 2010, he said he wanted to introduce economic

reforms, to introduce some market principles to the command economy of

state-run enterprises in Cuba. Does that mean that the Cuban government

is now less antagonistic towards private business? Of course it's not

antagonistic at all. As a matter of fact, the Cuban revolution created

more private, small private entrepreneurs than any other regime

in the history of Cuba. We created the agrarian reform law that created

thousands of small farmers and gave them the titles to the property of

their land. That is going back to the revolution after Batista in the

late 1950s. We are not so antagonistic. But most people in

Cuba were employed by the state before these reforms. You could be a

hairdresser and be employed by the state. That's true. But now you have

these changes that Raul Castro has brought in. For instance, you can

now buy and sell property. You can lease land from the government and

you can farm that. There have been these reforms. Is the Cuban

socialist revolution going capitalist? No, but we are really

finding our socialism. We do not believe... What was perhaps one of

the worst effects of the Cold War years... In those days, people on

the left assumed that there was one socialism, a so-called real

socialism, and that failed completely in Eastern Europe. The

fact is that the real socialist society should come from within,

from inside, from its own culture and traditions. In other words,

there is no such thing as a socialist model to be followed by

all. You have changed your model. That is the point. A report by the

Centre for Democracy says that the reforms that have taken place in

Cuba highlight an acceptance that market forces can play a role in

economic policy, so these reforms are broader and more permanent than

the kind of changes you might have seen in the past. Do you accept

that? Entirely. Therefore, I ask you again - is the Cuban socialist

revolution adopting some capitalist principles? And if so, isn't that an

admission that the system as it has been practised in Cuba has partly

failed? It is recognition of certain realities. The world has changed.

You have to adjust to a changing world. On the one hand, it is a

recognition of some mistakes, of some exaggeration in, for instance,

the hairdresser example that you put as an example of an exaggeration of

the role of the state. What mistakes? What mistakes did the

revolution make? Having a lot of activities that could be performed

by individuals, by families, and that are not necessarily to be in

the hands of the state. We believe that what socialism means is state

ownership or control over the main means of production. That's not a

hairdresser. That's not a small plot of land. That's not a small-trade

business. The state will still be the key economic player in the Cuban

economy. But when one Communist Party member said in 2012 that by

2017, 45% of Cuba's GDP will be from different forms of non-state

production, that is, in private hands, that sounds like a big chunk.

Nearly half of Cuba's GDP not controlled by the state? That's an

erosion of state power in the economy. Control does not

necessarily mean direct ownership and management. Control also

refers... To the role of the state. We believe that society should be

organised in such a way as to guarantee that everybody has free

education and free healthcare. By the way, our system is not far at

all from the British system in healthcare. What is that?

Capitalist? A socialist system? A republican system? But you cannot

guarantee jobs for life in the public sector. You have issues. You

say you want to give people what they want. Let me give you one

example. Look at consumer goods. The authorities say that they will relax

some of their restrictions on people buying things. You can buy a basic,

simple car in Cuba if you have $260,000. And the average salary is

$20 per month. You are not giving the people what they want. Maria

Rosas, a 42-year-old office worker in Cuba, makes $12 per month. She

says she sees things like a blender, a sandwich-maker or a steam iron

that she would like to have, but she cannot afford to. How does that make

you feel? Cubans say they want to buy basic household goods but they

cannot afford them. People in all countries have

difficulties finding a job. But not to that extent. Even in developing

nations in Africa, they own a cellphone. I hope you don't go

pursue that woman, now... But she can go to the best hospital, she can

have the best education. And she can get that for her children as well

without paying a cent. You said, in the UK you have a health system, we

have a similar thing in Cuba. In the UK, you can go and buy something as

basic as a steam iron, as well as having the healthcare.

Some people are more equal than others. We have more access to those

goods than others. Who has access to those goods, who

is buying them? Obviously there is inequality. That

is a consequence of the market. Who is buying those goods, a

sandwich maker that may cost $20 in other countries, may cost three

times in Cuba. Basic consumer goods are at least three times as much as

they are online in most countries. Who can afford to buy these things

if the basic salary is $20 a month? There are imbalances in our economy

that are precisely... The reforms are aimed, among other things, to

eliminate them, to make those imbalances disappear.

2012, 47,000 Cubans left Cuba permanently, we think. A lot of

people. Remember that those are people who

get an American visa, and the basis for getting a US visa is to have a

relative in the US. But they are leaving, in their

thousands. More than they did since 1994.

More people are returning Cuba than ever before. I am not prepared to

disclose publicly, the number of those who are doing the reverse

travel. Those Cubans who are going back to Cuba from the US. As it

happened with some Latin American countries.

Is that really so? A Republican senator of Cuban parents said, how

come I never hear about boatloads of refugees going to Cuba?

He does not want to hear. Why can't you disclose these

numbers? He is lying. You should be talking

about that person. You said there are a lot going back.

Why can't you disclose the number? You only need to go to the airport

in Miami, which is the airport that has more flights to Cuba than

anywhere else. Daily flights. Only for Cubans, and some of them, after

they land in the country, basically want to remain. We are not going to

say the names and their figures, because they have measures against

those people to punish them. They have families in Miami.

You said, we have high literacy rate in Cuba, I will not quote again, but

he makes the point, what is the point of the literacy rate when you

don't have access to the internet? Access to the internet in Cuba is

the worst in the world. Do you know any other country that

US companies are not permitted to operate in? Do you know any other

country... What does that have to do with your

media within the country? Newspapers, the state has a

monopoly. You mentioned the internet. Every

country in Latin America gets access to the internet through a cable that

moves around the island of Cuba, except Cuba. Cuba cannot use it

because it is under US control. Then what do they save?

What about freedom of expression, you have human rights organisations,

a UN body on human rights, saying that freedom of expression is

lacking. There are arbitrary detentions still. Some journalists

are in jail for months at a time without trial. Is there freedom in

the media in Cuba? There is not. It is not the best

media. Cubans have certain possibilities of expression that

they would not have around the world. When I talk about reforms,

every one of them, all of them, have been discussed with the people. The

people have the opportunity to express themselves and to modify

proposals. For 20 years I was president of the National Assembly.

I never voted on a law without having it discussed with everybody.

That does not exist in other societies.

I want to ask you about your campaign for Cubans who are held in

US prisons. Americans say they have been spying. Two have been released.

That is a big obstacle to better relations between Cuba and the US.

That you have a US contractor who was trying to bring Internet

communications to the Jewish community in Cuba. --internet.

The US community had the right to say it, they deny that allegation.

Would you swap the remaining three Cubans being held in US prisons for

spying for him? I think that they should be free. He

should also have the opportunity to see his family. We have said, time

and again, the Foreign Ministry, our representatives, have said time and

again that Cuba is prepared to sit down with the US to solve the issue,

to find a humanitarian solution to that. But, at the same time, we also

have to address legitimate humanitarian concerns related to the

five who are now three, and their families.

They have been separated for a long time.

Just quickly on that, will you see movement on that?

I hope so. I think that the US is getting the message.

President Raul Castro says he will not be running again in 2018 as

president. His older brother has already gone off the scene. You, in

your mid-70s, you were removed from the Communist Party's powerful

Central Committee. Do you think that it is time to make way for a new

generation of leaders, sooner, rather than later?

Of course. I agree. I behave following that principle. I am

retired. They named my successor. He is not a young boy, but he is much

younger than me. I think that is the way it should be.

Should the president stepped down? I think that if it were up to him,

he would have done that. I think he will continue performing his duties

as president until the term of his mandate.

Ricardo Alarcon, thank you for coming on HARDtalk.

It was a pleasure, it was not that hard.

It has been a much dryer week and that looks to continue through the

weekend. Some of us have had some ring like sunshine and for some of

us again it will be warm in the sunshine.