Ai Weiwei - Artist HARDtalk

Now on BBC News it's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk. Today I am in suburban Beijing. Behind this while

is the home of the studio of my gas. He is China's most famous artist.

His art and his life had become a challenge to China's authoritarian

rules. Ai Weiwei's compound is monitored by

a host of surveillance cameras. In 2011, he was accused of financial

crimes, imprisoned for 81 days and fined over $2 million. His passport

has still not been returned. It seems the state still sees him as a

threat. Every morning at 9am, Ai Weiwei emerges from his house to

place flowers in the basket of a bicycle left of the street.

It is a ritual he will continue until his passport is returned. He

films the daily scene and posts it on the web, part protest, part

performance art. Inside his studio he is still free to work. His

trademark is installation art, sound and made objects, photography,

design. All used to challenge and subvert. Right now, he is preparing

for major exhibitions in Berlin and California. Of course he won't be

there to see them. Are you, by asking questions and constantly

asking why, are you a problem? Yes. Because you are touching the base of

their existence, so you become dangerous.

Questions are not recommended, not in the system. Ai Weiwei's every

move is watched. He knows the state has many ways to squeeze him.

Before, it was quite intense. If I walk in the park, anything, you can

see people following you or hiding behind the bush.

In the coffee shops, you can see them sitting next to you, pretending

they are drinking or ordering ice cream.

Quite relentless? Yes. We drove across Beijing to see one of Ai

Weiwei's most famous designs. The Olympic Stadium. When you spoke

immediately after the Olympics, you were disappointed. You said you felt

it was a fake event, an empty smile to the world. Do you feel that in a

way you got sucked into that? Yes. I recognised that too late, before the

celebration, I realised it was a piece of propaganda. Nothing to do

with the joy of the citizens here. There it sits ` a surreal symbol of

today's China. A virtually unused stadium, designed by one of the

Communist Party's biggest critics. How easy is it to be an artist, to

be creative, in the circumstances that you find yourself in today?

I think artists in these sorts of circumstances have some

difficulties, some obstacles, but also have a very special platform.

Sometimes it is necessary to deal with matters which are not very

normal for an artist. But in Chinese tradition, you do

have artists who are under some kind of strange conditions. Such as

foreign invasion. Many different dynasties have foreign invasions.

Their whole life is making art about it. In a sense you see yourself in

that tradition of finding ways to be creative in adversity? Yes, you have

to be honest to face the conditions. And to try to find some kind of

solution or to live with it. So, your expression has to deal with it.

In learning how to deal with it, how important has it been for you to

think of your own father? Because you have this history in your

family. Your father was a very famous poet in China. During the

cultural revolution, Mao's cultural revolution, he was banished to the

countryside. Forced into hard Labour. You were a child and you saw

all of that. Do you think that experience in a way has helped you

to deal with this situation? In the beginning, I never consciously

thought I was trying to relate myself to my family back home. But

after I was arrested, the first thing that came to my mind was, now

I have become the same as my father. Because 80 years earlier, he was

arrested by a different party but almost similar accusation.

I even told the interrogator, I said, now again we are the same.

They told me, no, this time it's different. You talk about thinking

of your father when you are put in prison. You spent 81 days locked up.

You have talked frankly about how difficult it was. You said you

became mad. It's very hard for anyone to bear. I wonder, was that a

turning point for you? Seeing the inside of a prison? Yes, to be in

that kind of condition, even if you have heard stories about different

kinds of treatment from the prisoners, it is very different to

really being there. You start to realise your life has been

completely cut off from the past, from anything you are familiar with.

And every move, every object, it is all foreign to you.

All the discipline, the treatment, you cannot use any previous

knowledge or wisdom, or even emotions, you can't make any kind of

argument. You can't communicate in the same way as you used to do.

So, it is very difficult. Were you frightened? It is hard to say you

are frightened. I think everybody would be frightened, because such

uncertainty... You never know what kind of treatment you will receive

and nothing protects you. You have no knowledge. You can't tell

anybody, you can't see lawyers, you can't call your family. Everything

is so restricted. So, I guess you are threatened. I believe the most

terrible thing about that experience is that you know at any moment the

authorities could do it to you again. That is the threat that hangs

over you. First, you recognise you have

absolute no authority, which clearly tells you they don't have to follow

the law. They can do what they like. They are outlaws. Then you feel very

sad about that, because you are really basically dealing with people

who are not rational. Who will never really... Their argument has no

logic and you can't really defend yourself. After the release, they

clearly tell you they can do it again any time, if they need to do

it. They tell you that? I asked them two questions. First, I said, you

never explained to me why you arrested me. Second, you never told

me why you are releasing me. They hesitated and then said two things.

They said, we can arrest you any time we want. We don't ever have to

release you again. Let me ask you this. In the middle of the prison

experience, or maybe every day of your life, even today, do you think,

maybe I should have stayed in America? You were a young artist in

New York City. You are making a success of your artistic life. You

had freedom. You chose to come back to China and I wonder if there is a

part of you that regrets that? Only once in my life I had a moment of

regret. That's when they put a hood on my face and secretly took me to

this secret location in 2011. To the prison? Yes. I was sitting in a

chair. The black hood was still on my head. For hours, nobody came to

take it off. I could not see anything. I knew I was in a room but

without any noise. So, I thought, how stupid I was not to get an

American passport. Sticking with the theme of America. There are those

maybe in China particularly who say, Ai Weiwei is an artist who is not

really Chinese. He has been so influenced by the United States and

the West, he makes art for them. He doesn't make art for Chinese people,

that they can relate to or means anything to them. How do you respond

to that? I think that kind of assumption is very wrong.

My work can't be shown here, so you can tell how my work is related

here. That is the strongest argument. I am the only artist in

China who can't show my works here. Not only in art galleries, you can't

type my works into the Chinese internet. Nobody can share the

photos they are taking with me. They would be immediately deleted. So,

that is really a strong argument, that my work is designed for this

society. Or I'm thinking of the installation

you created out of backpacks of children to mark all of those

children who were killed in the Sichuan earthquake, when so many

schools collapsed. It seems you have a desire to poke the powers that be

in China. I would not disagree. As an artist, I do have the intention

to question the existence of things and to use my actions to question or

give new definitions to make things clear. Does that make you political?

Are you political? I think as a result, I would accept people

thinking that I'm very political, but that was not my intention. I

think if somebody is questioning reality, truths, facts, it always

becomes a political act. In the family, between friends, relatives

or even the nation, this is clear. So, in a way, it's impossible to

separate art and politics, particularly in China today. Yes, I

would say that it's impossible for an intellectual or an artist to not

ask for the truth or to not associate their creativity with

reality or to make some kind of argument which protects freedom of

speech, protects human dignity. I think ` how can you avoid it? I

really don't think that I have that kind of skill. Do you think there is

an irony here, that in a way, you have become more internationally

known and famous because of the Chinese government's efforts to

control you, to stop you travelling, to monitor you, to have surveillance

on you? That this, in a way, has worked against their interests

because it has made you more of a symbol throughout the entire world?

I think you are right. And in a graphic sense, I also have to try to

make them understand. I'm clearly telling them that they are the ones

who make me so obvious, famous. You are famous. You have exhibitions all

around the world from New York to London and Venice. Everybody wants

to see your work. Yeah, I told them this would be a possibility. And

they never listened to me. In a sense, they have helped create what

you are today. That's true. They have built this large stage for me

on which to play and I'm quite shy on this stage but still, this is

what they have done. You say that you are quite shy but in a sense,

you have embraced the global communications potential that comes

with the internet in a way that suggests you are not shy at all.

Everything you do now, pretty much your whole life, has become an

electronic performance which anybody can see if they have access to the

internet. Thanks to the internet, you just have to do very little.

Just move your fingertips and everything is communicated. I could

never have imagined things would become like they are today because

of the internet. How important is the internet to your art and the way

you live your life today? Art is my life and without the internet there

is no life. I really think the internet is the most precious thing

for any individual who wants to express himself or who wants to

share his feelings or meanings or concepts with other people. We have

talked a lot about freedom and the idea of freedom. In a sense, you are

saying that the internet has allowed you an indelible freedom and

connection, even though your passport remains in the hands of the

police. But how difficult is it for you that you cannot actually now go

to places around the world which are putting on exhibitions of your work?

If I have freedom, it's freedom. Yes, I can produce some work and

bring it to museums or galleries, but I cannot really communicate with

people there. I cannot give people explanation in depth about my work,

to really answer their questions or even hear their criticism. I see art

as a continuous activity. It is not the work that is just finished but

the process of communication and how other people become involved in that

and continue the discussion. But that has been completely cut off by

not allowing me to be there. So, I'm always doing my work halfway. I want

to end this interview I having a few thoughts with you about China today.

You cannot travel abroad, so maybe you are looking more closely at your

own society. You live in Beijing and you can travel around Beijing and

you have said some interesting things about it. You say that it

makes you unhappy, looking at the people in Beijing, because you can

see deadness in the eyes of so many people and you see a complete

disconnection between the people, the elite with money and power, and

the ordinary people, who live completely disconnected from those

in power. It sounds like you are very depressed about your own

country. You never enjoy your life if you see young people who never

received the full information, who never knew the total truth, who

cannot make arguments. There is no passion, no courage or imagination.

You will never be satisfied. Your life is ruined if you see... I mean,

I have my private car and I have my driver, but if you see a person at a

traffic light sitting on a bus and their eyes have no hope in them,

they don't want to go to the place where they have to work, this is

terrible. I cannot look at it. I think this is not a city you can

really enjoy. You can see that there are so many people who have never

seen this kind of money they have in the US or in the West, throwing

money around so luxuriously and so shamelessly, actually. You see more

beautiful cars in Beijing than anywhere else in the world. You know

what the party leaders would say to you. They would say that it's easy

for you to criticise but we have lifted half a billion people out of

poverty. We have over the last 30 years raised this country up and

given it a prosperity that the Chinese people could never have

dreamt of before. Well, they will never know what people think about

them unless they let them have a voice. `` voting ticket. I could be

wrong, but just let people for once have a vote. I would shoot off my

mouth and I would just paint pretty pictures and, you know, why not? We

all have good intentions towards other people. Thank you for being on

HARDtalk. The need. If you can think back to

last weekend, we enjoyed nice conditions with 20 degrees and

sunshine. This weekend will be cooler and breezy with showers. That

is what we saw earlier today, and this line of organised rain is

moving in from the west overnight. Some gusty winds and rain, sleet,

and snow in