Ukraine Special HARDtalk

And now be missing is, it is time for HardTalk special with Dmitry

Peskov. Welcome to HARDtalk. A small chunk

of European territory is annexed by a mighty neighbouring power, it

sounds like a chapter from the 20th century but it is a story unfolding

right now in Crimea. Vladimir Putin has ignored the dark warnings from

the West and rested Crimea from Ukraine with ruthless efficiency.

What now? My guest is Dmitry Peskov, is Russia ready for this

crisis to intensify? Dmitry Peskov in Moscow, thank you

for joining me. My pleasure. We have seen a lot of flag`waving and

triumphalism in Moscow, marking the annexation of Crimea. Is that what

you are really feeling right now? A sense of triumph? A sense of

triumph, it is emotional in Moscow and in Crimea also. I would not call

it an annexation. I would rather prefer a word like Crimea joining

the Russian Federation. It is not for you to choose the

words that will be used around the world, other words are being used by

other people in Europe there is a sense of foreboding, summed up by

the Polish Foreign Minister who refers to this as a moment reviving

the Nazis in the 1930s. I don't think 93% of the population

of Crimea will join the opinion of the Polish Foreign Minister. And

more than 90% of the population of the Russian Federation will

definitely disagree with him and definitely it is not a proper

comparison, especially for the Polish Foreign Minister.

It is based upon Russia's military intervention, is it not and the

referendum you regard as expressing a wish of the Crimean people was

conducted under the barrels of Russian guns.

No, not at all. We're not speaking about Russian intervention.

President Putin has applied for Russian parliament in order to get

it right in front of the takeover in Kiev and in front of an endangered

Crimea people, he asked for a rights to use military in solving the

conflict. This right was granted to the head of state but he never used

the right, actually. So when we saw Russian troops on the

ground guarding key buildings, playing a role on the streets of the

major towns and cities, will be imagining that?

You saw many local forces, local forces of self defence in Crimea and

besides don't forget that in accordance with electoral agreement

with Ukraine, Russia has a military base actually in Crimea.

I have no doubt about that and they are naval forces who are supposed to

operate out of Russian naval bases. I'm talking about Russian forces all

over Crimea on the streets. The military personnel on the

military base, the naval base, definitely was increased that

without passing the limit that was stated in the agreement and that was

emphasised by President Putin when he addressed the Russian parliament

a couple of hours ago. We use the word triumphalism, the

problem is he can be a triumphant as he once in front of his in people

but the problem is he can claim this annexation, I will use that word,

you can claim it is legal but the international community does not

regard it as legal in anyway whatsoever. Row`macro yes. You are

right. United States of America, Great Britain, the EU countries and

other countries they went to declare in advance the referendum

illegitimate. A couple of weeks in advance. By the way, it is a

striking example of legal cynicism. No one has tried to announce in

advance and illegal government in Kiev which came to power as a result

of a takeover. We have had international legal

scholars from many countries, not just western ones, saying it cannot

be a legal process, not least because it violates the Ukrainian

constitution and it was organised in such haste, there was no option on

the ballot paper for those who wanted to vote for the status quo to

vote for it. It wasn't an option. There is simile different ways

beginning with the Russian military presence in which this referendum

cannot be given legitimacy. . As a matter of fact, we faced some

precedence during the new history of Europe when some events turned out

to be legitimate in the understanding of Western countries

and the others were illegitimate despite being the same by nature.

So, this is a striking example are facing now, we're speaking about the

constitution but intentionally or unintentionally we are forgetting

the circumstances under which the present government came to power. I

understand the point you are making and I know many Russian officials

have pointed to Kosovo as an example. I don't want to get too

hung up on the legal differences as perceived by many legal scholars

between Crimea and Kosovo. This is the basic problem. One legal point,

does Russia not feel bound by the treaties it signed beginning in

1991, 1992 through 21997 with Ukraine where Russia time it signed

a deal with Ukraine recognised Ukraine's territorial integrity,

including Cairo `` Crimea. Definitely. Russia takes to its

international obligations and Russia is a responsible member of the

international community. But we see a different picture. First of all,

there was a legal coming to power of certain people and throwing of the

legal president backed by extremist groups and there was a danger, a

danger of what sometimes lethal activities of those extremists

throughout the country, especially eastwards and in the direction of

Crimea. There was a danger for people, for Russians, Ukrainians and

others living on the territory of Crimea and those people preferred to

use their right of self`determination. This is the

right that can be used under the Charter of the United Nations. So,

to be clear... I want to be clear, when you talk about the situation in

Ukraine and in Crimea, it seems you are reviving the allegations of

hordes of neo`Nazis, fascists and anti`Semites on the rampage

threatening the lives and security of the Russian ethnic population and

Russian speakers. I have heard that many many times over the last two

weeks, I have seen absolutely no evidence to support it.

Well, as a matter of fact, I heard it also and but... In comparison

with you, I have heard it from eyewitnesses. It is a great

difference when you hear it from the media or when you hear it from

eyewitnesses. Unfortunately, there is a huge information war going on.

You can say that again! For example, the information war, the Russian

media is state dominated and reporting that thousands, tens of

thousands of ethnic Russians and Russian speakers were forced to flee

from their homes and many were crossing the border into Russia.

From independent reports on the border, both sides, that simply

wasn't true. John Kerry said there have been constant lies and

distortions. I would rather disagree with Mr

Kerry. We had a significant increase of those people passing the border

is trying to settle down on Russian territory. People are trying to

escape the danger of those extremists coming from the western

regions of Ukraine. Well, clearly a total complete

difference of opinion about what is happening on the ground in Crimea

and eastern Ukraine but what we have right now is a situation that seems

desperately dangerous and unresolved. Let's talk about the

situation of Ukraine military personnel who are still in Crimea

which is in the process of being embraced inside the Russian

federation. What will happen to those people, we have reports now as

we speak of gunfire and incursions and Ukrainian military personnel

being captured and abducted by Russian forces in the capital. What

will happen to those military personnel?

President Putin has mentioned in his address them more than 20,000

military personnel of the Ukrainian army are based in Crimea, some of

them passed to the Crimean side and will be a part of the Russian

Federation and some of them are still locked in their regiments,

some of them are service men in self defence regiments, some are staying

inside waiting for their orders. They cannot understand right now

what is the motherland. They will have to take a decision, some of

them will join the Crimean army and the Russian army, those who do not

want to do that definitely will be freed to leave the peninsular. The

Prime Minister of Ukraine has said, this conflict is moving from the

political to the military stage. Ukrainian media reports suggest one

Ukrainian soldier has been killed in Simferopol. This is a very dangerous

situation. We have no doubt that unfortunately we will have to face

provocations and we have a reason to say so because we have information

about provocation is being prepared in order to provoke clashes and

gunfire. The Crimean 's are doing their best... Your troops are laying

siege and surrounding military units in Crimea and you are accusing them

of provocation? There were some infiltrations by provocateurs

equipped by guns and equipped by explosives. But your troops

controlled the ground in Crimea and the borders between Russia and the

rest of Ukraine. It is not all Russian forces. There are Russian

forces securing the Russian naval base. From now on I do not know,

starting from today Crimea has joined the Russian Federation and

now the situation is different there. That is your view, but it is

not the view of the Ukrainian Government that says it will not

cede an inch of territory from the homeland including Crimea. It looks

as though the stand`off is going to intensify. Let me fix focus to

eastern Ukraine as well. Vladimir Putin tells the world he has no

desire to see Ukraine divided that he also says he will continue to

protect the lives, the security of Russians living in Ukraine by all

means. He is simply intimidating the Ukrainian Government, is he not?

Well, first of all, we do expect some measures from those people who

are calling themselves the Ukrainian Government. We do expect the Western

community backing those people to take effective measures in order to

protect those people living in the eastern regions of Ukraine. At the

same time we are receiving reports about clashes in an eastern city of

Ukraine, so there are clashes and sounds of gunfire. Also some reports

about one or two people being wounded. Those clashes between

military gun men and fighters, extremists, coming from western

regions. So we expect the Ukrainian Government to protect the Russian

population, otherwise Russia simply cannot stay without reaction. We

will have to react, we will have to protect Russians and also Ukrainians

living there. Let me pick up on that point. We have heard from the United

States, the German and British governments saying it would be the

gravest of mistakes for you in Russia to push your forces into

eastern Ukraine to intervene militarily. Can you guarantee me

here and now that Russia will not do that? No one is speaking about using

forces eastwards, or about using forces in the eastern regions. It is

not on the agenda, it is out of the question, but we do not want to make

any forecasts for bloodshed that can occur in the eastern regions. If the

Ukrainian Government pays no attention to the gravest situation

in the eastern regions, then the consequences may be very, very bad.

You are giving me mixed messages. On the one hand you are saying if our

Russian people are not protected, we will react. On the other hand you

have said military intervention in the eastern Ukraine is out of the

question, in your words. Which is it? Definitely we are not speaking

about military actions in the eastern region of Ukraine, but

Russia will do whatever is possible, using all legal means, in total

correspondence with international law, to protect and to extend a hand

of help to Russians living in the eastern regions of Ukraine. Do you

believe Russia has the right to veto certain moves potentially made by

the Ukrainian Government? On Friday for examples Ukrainian Government is

expected to sign the political element of an association deal with

the European Union. Do you believe Russia has the right to insist that

does not happen? We do not have the right to veto the signing of a

political part of a cessation agreement between the European Union

and an illegitimate Government of Ukraine. Thus we simply cannot use

that veto right. We can be only very sorry for that, that the EU

countries signed an agreement with an illegitimate Government. It is as

a result of a takeover. You refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of a

Government. Does Russia have a right to insist that Ukraine does not

become a member of the EU? Do you believe that is a legitimate Russian

right? First of all, we never tried to create an obstacle in the way of

Ukraine is getting closer to the EU. To the contrary Vladimir Putin

emphasised numerous times that this will be a sovereign choice of the

Ukrainian people whether to be closer to the EU, or to be closer to

the United economic area of free countries like Russia and

Kazakhstan. That is the sole decision of the Ukrainian people and

it is a sovereign headache for the EU. I do not want to end without

addressing Russia's relationship with the EU and the West. Would you

accept that what we are going to see over the next few days, weeks and

months is the increasing isolation of Russia from the West and from

many international organisations? We do hope that the circumstances are

not developing that way. We have already seen the first tranche of

punitive measures against your country. We have seen the Americans

list 11 individuals for travel bans and asset freezes, the EU 21, and we

know, given the annexation of Crimea, we know the measures are

going to go further. Definitely we cannot accept these measures and we

think they are intolerable and unacceptable for Russia. So we want

to be close allies to the European Union, we want to be in a good

relationship with the United States, especially with European union

countries because the EU is a basic trade and an economic investment

partner of the Russian Federation. So our mutual interdependence,

economically, really dictates that we have to be in a good

relationship. When you talk about mutual interdependence you supply it

is a relationship of equals, but it is not. We have a former adviser to

the Kremlin saying Russia's dependence on trade with the West is

much greater than vice versa. Very soon your economy is going to face a

real crunch, isn't it? First of all, we have heard nothing up to this

moment about economic sanctions. So, facing economic sanctions from one

side every country is free to concentrate on economic corporation

with the other side of the world. Today's world is not polar. The EU

is not the only area of growth on the earth. So there are different

point of growth, there are different countries that are interested in

cooperation with Russia. From our side we will continue to offer our

cooperation with the European Union countries. We are deeply interested

in that. You can make an offer, but it will not be accepted. The French

Foreign Minister said the G8 is going to become the G7. You can

forget about being in it. Do you care? It is not only our problem.

You can call it the G five, the G six, it does not matter. But if you

discuss global processes without the participation of Russia it will be a

handicapped discussion. Does it ever strike you that the real fear that

Russia has of what has happened in Ukraine is a fear Russians might

learn from the Ukrainian revolution, they might see people

challenging a corrupt or authoritarian regime and some in

Russia might believe they could follow that model inside your own

country? We have some statistics about the moods of Russians living

in eastern regions of Ukraine. They do not treat it as a revolution,

they treat it as a takeover. You can only be fed up with the consequences

of a takeover in Ukraine and with the grave situation in the economy,

the country is on the brink of collapse, the Social Security

consequences, so it is not an example of revolution. In this sense

it is not a question. We are not going to get any more questions or

answers. Dmitri Pasco, thank you very much for joining me. Thank

you, it was my pleasure to be here. Good evening. The end of the week

will bring quite a change in the weather across the whole of the

country. Still some fairly decent temperatures over the next couple of

days. Overnight tonight it will stay mild and frost free because we have

got a significant breeze. Rain in the North West