19/03/2014 HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk. Here at the Bulgarian Embassy in London. My

guest today is Bulgaria's President, Rosen Plevneliev. His is one of the

EU member states that is most dependent on Russia for energy

needs. What did he make of EU moves to toughen sanctions against Moscow

over the Crimea crisis? Can the EU afford to get tough with Russia?

President Rosen Plevneliev, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Can the

European Union really afford to get tough with Russia over Crimea? We

have seen a major breach of international law that leads to

losing trust. When you lose trust with someone, you need to act. Act

in what way? Tougher sanctions? Is that something you would like to see

the EU do? Widen the circle of travel bans, asset freezes? I do not

think we should be fighting a war, I do not think we should be going back

to the Cold War. In the 21st century, such things are impossible.

You cannot send your troops, you cannot occupy the territory of an

independent state and you cannot organise illegal referendums in

order to annex territory in front of the global community, that is

impossible. We need to stand to our values and act with a strong voice

and clear actions. That is the difficulty though, isn't it? To act

with one clear, strong voice. The EU is not getting tough with Russia, is

it? The sanctions against Moscow have been described as "pathetic" by

the former British Foreign Secretary, Malcolm Rifkind. We are

at the beginning of a long process. The game has changed. It has changed

for a long time. We have seen an aggressive and nationalistic Russia.

The answer is asymmetric but it is steady and clear. We need to have a

new policy towards Russia. The head of the Socialist party in Bulgaria

says, do not expect Bulgaria to be among the Hawks in the EU, our

country has no interest in sanctions against Russia which would be

harmful to several Eastern European countries including Bulgaria. Is he

right? What we have heard, that is the shape of the European Socialist

and the Bulgarian Socialist party. What we have heard is, basically, we

do not want to fight the European Union or Russia. I know it is not

your party, you are not from the Socialist Party. But just on that

point made by the head of the Bulgarian Socialist party, is he

right that Bulgaria cannot afford to have tough sanctions against Russia?

Your gas supply is 85% from Russia. Economics is one, the other is who

you are, what do you represent and what are your values? I represent a

nation which is the most pro`European nation in the world. A

nation with a vibrant society that wants democracy. This is telling me

that we should work and support and we should be fighting for a strong

European Union that stands against anyone who is blocking the

international rule of law. You want tougher sanctions then? Wider trade

economic sanctions, bring in Putin's inner circle on individuals who have

been identified for travel bans, you want to see more robust sanctions?

Yes or no? I want to see a strong Bulgaria committed to its values of

democratic and European development and I want to see a strong European

Union that is standing to support the society of Ukraine. To support

the peaceful democratic development and I have to tell you very clearly,

Crimea is, and will be, Ukrainian. Ukraine will be European. Bulgaria

during the Soviet area was one of the countries that was closest to

the Soviet Union. You say you want to be good EU citizens, how to you

do that as well as managing your relationship with Russia, which of

course is very important to you. That is clear but you have moments

of history and sometimes you don't. We do face today a moment of history

today for us, for our choice and our society, for Europe and the world.

What would you think if tomorrow we do have Russian minorities in other

countries? We do have them in Estonia. It could be possible that

they can call Moscow and Moscow will send troops into other countries? Is

that possible? We need to act and it is not just about numbers... You

have this condemnation by the fact of the matter it is difficult to act

against Russia. Isn't it? Particularly for the EU. Just look

at the difference between the EU and the United States in the economic,

trade and financial ties. Russian, American trade is about $30 billion

a year and the United States only exported about $9 billion worth of

goods to Russia. Russia and the European Union, not just energy, the

deep ties account for about $400 billion a year. So, the United

States can afford to get tough with Russia on sanctions but not be EU.

look at the numbers between the EU look at the numbers between the EU

and Russia, they are huge. But what we see, what we need is a new

policy. What we need to do is to work devotedly to diversify and to

make sure that they are dependencies will be used. That will not happen

overnight, will it? You get your gas through a pipe from Russia. You have

suffered in the past over disputes between Ukraine and Russia. Let me

put this to you, the acting Prime Minister in Ukraine, Arseniy

Yatsenyuk, has said Crimea is moving from a political government to a

military one. Do you see it that way as well? I do not want to see it

that way. I hope there will be no war there. The European Union,

because of that also, is sentenced to have a strong voice and clear

policy that is consistent and that is going to affect and that is going

to work. If there is no trust, then investors cannot trust anyone. They

will pull their money out. If there is no trust, if the markets are not

trusting any more, that might be a problem. If there is no trust, then

banks, it is difficult to be refinanced because we do not know

and we do not trust. The EU is adapting. Let me give you an example

for Bulgaria, what are we going to do. In my country, that will be a

process that will move across the whole region. We depend on the gas

supply at we want to change that. We will be building gas connectors very

quickly. That will take the few years, won't it? Just staying with

this military issue that Arseniy Yatsenyuk has raised, Bulgaria is a

member of NATO and has taken part in military exercises on the Black Sea.

Do you envisage any possibility of NATO asserting itself in these

waters to try and warn Russia from future escalation in this conflict?

What we need today in south`east Europe, definitely is more NATO. We

will be very active by working with our allies to secure our part. That

will upset the Russians. They are saying, Ukraine have fallen out with

the Soviet Union and become a member of the EU. And also become a member

of NATO. President Putin has said in a speech this week, he does not feel

that the west in particular understands Russia's mentality.

Their national interest. He likened the situation in Crimea to German

reunification. Does he have a point that perhaps, the Russians are

misunderstood by the Americans, by the EU? Let me give you and other

point which is very complimentary to what you just asked. You remember in

1993 when Ukraine was a nuclear armed force? And then the treaty

powers secured and took their signatures in a special agreement in

the press.(CROSSTALK). I am asking you a question. What do you think

about India? What you think about Pakistan? How do you feel about

other nuclear armed countries? Are they going to work in the future for

reducing the nuclear treaty on this planet if we have the example of

Ukraine where actually, an agreement was signed and then completely

breached? OK. You have made that clear. I want to look at Bulgaria.

You are the President of Bulgaria. You do have some limited powers.

Frankly, you have been a politician, and a Cabinet minister under the

government until 2011. Politicians are very unpopular in Bulgaria,

aren't they? Your ratings are very low. Absolutely! Why such a bad

reputation? The numbers for me are better than...(CROSSTALK). You are

absolutely right. Society today, it demands much more from politicians.

Civil society does not trust their political leaders and that is

unfortunate, but that is the truth. There were protests in my own

country which I have seen as a statement of positivity. Bulgarian

civil society sent a very clear message. We would like to see

effective institutions that turn to people, we would like to see our

state moving into more transparency and predictability. And actually,

politicians delayed some of the major reforms. That leads to

reducing the trust of people. You can restore that in a very simple

way. Do not promise everything. But what you promised, please deliver.

Part of the protests that you mentioned that were taking place,

Bulgaria is the poorest country in the EU. According to the World Bank,

the GDP is 55% below the average EU GDP. Politicians in Bulgaria have

failed the people. Successive politicians. We need to work hard. I

am sure that Bulgaria is on the right track. We have seen some

results. You cannot change today or tomorrow but we are on the right

track. The problem is every new government that comes in and says, I

am shifting priorities and changing everything because I am smart and I

want to do many things. You also have corruption which is a big

issue. 82% of Bulgarians believe there is corruption in public

institutions. And that corruption cases are not pursued vigorously

enough. Mark Gray in Brussels said in

January: What we have seen in Bulgaria in the last eight years are

steps in place, but we see the lack of people being brought to justice.

Failing to put people behind bars. That is what the EU is saying now.

Corruption is a live issue you have failed to tackle properly. We are

addressing it clearly. If you look at the numbers, what the EU Court

issued, with its statistics in 2013, you will see Bulgeria is more

effective. We see them coming to the country. We see that the mechanism

in the European communion is an effective tool to improve and

reform. It won't happen today or tomorrow, but we do have an

improvement. If you look at the worst statistics, published two

weeks ago, you will see corruption is a major problem all over the

world. You score at the bottom of the rankings in the EU. Why are you

so corrupt? Is that linked to the poverty in Bulgeria? High

unemployment, people who leave Bulgeria because they want to find

better opportunities elsewhere ` what is it about your country that

has put it in this plight? The way you fight corruption is simple. I am

pushing it from day one of becoming President. That is, open government

policies. Nothing to hide in regards to public money. We should stick to

this plan and in 2015 you will see a difference. You have countries in

the EU, France, the Netherlands, Germany, saying we don't want

Bulgeria to become part of the Schengen visa`free travel agreement.

They say they are not sure you can manage your borders and they are

worried about corruption. That is a big problem. We will see Bulgeria, I

hope soon. In a two`phase plan. We are working, based on restrictions

and rules in the area, and all requirements have been met. I'm sure

about that. Are you sure? The Foreign Minister of France said

Bulgeria is not able to secure its borders with non` EU members, for

instance with Turkey, and should be barred from entering the zone. They

are not favourable to this and there is a lot of work to be done. He's

not as optimistic. The numbers show a different situation. They show we

are keeping the borders with non` EU members, e.g. Turkey, in a much

better shape than other European countries. We would like this to be

acknowledged. You say that, but let me give you an example. You have a

border with Turkey and they have a border with Syria and the influx of

refugees from Syria entering Bulgeria via Turkey has gone up by

1000 and you now have something like 9000. We do have 10,000 in Bulgeria.

The numbers have gone up dramatically. We have hundreds of

thousands through other EU state borders. If you look at the numbers

again, we are performing much better than many other European states. The

issue of Syrian refugees in Bulgeria is related to the issue with the way

they have been treated in Bulgeria and you know the EU High Commission

for refugees had said you are not treating them very well. It is

saying that they are kept in deplorable conditions. Asylum

seekers, not just Syrians, lack access to basic services such as

food, healthcare, lengthy delays in registration, are deprived of basic

rights and are at risk of arbitrary detention. One I read that report

carefully. After the first days and weeks of this wave of Syrian

refugees entering, those were the facts and that was the truth. But,

it has improved. We were surprised in the beginning, by having 20`30

refugees per month, and then we had 1,000`2,000 per month. That was a

wave we weren't prepared for. If you look at the latest report, issued a

week ago, the same institution with their signature, is writing about

improvement. Your message is that we are improving. And, we should enter

the visa`free travel agreement. But, the way foreigners are treated in

Bulgeria raises an issue for you, particularly when the Bulgarian

government criticises the way Bulgarian citizens are treated in

the EU, where, in popular media, reports of them are that they are

coming to enjoy welfare benefits. You complain about that. And yet,

you do see the rather ugly side to anti`foreigner actions in your own

country. We saw a mosque being attacked, which you have condemned.

Attacks on Asians and Africans in this past winter. That should really

worry you. What is worrying me is that those things happened before

elections. There will be political views in order to make someone

important. Someone who is playing with people's fears. Someone who is

showing a nationalistic approach. That, to me, is not patriotic. I am

coming to the point, the President of France said something very

important, for Europe and for Russia, he said, patriots are those

who love their country, nationalists are those who hate the different.

That is what is happening. A member of the Equal Opportunities

Initiative in the capital of Bulgeria, Sofia, says that

nationalism is on the rise in Bulgeria. Absolutely I agree with

this. I am truly surprised how quickly that happens, because, a

year or two ago, we did not face such a situation. Bulgarians are

very tolerant people. We are so proud that we represent a tolerant

nation, which was the only one that saved, in 1943, its entire Jewish

population. Now we have, in the latest month and year, a negative

development by having nationalism on the rise. It is not just Bulgeria,

many other European countries. We see them on the march in the EU. How

do you fight them? It is through patriotism, not nationalism. That

means the devotion of all of us to stick with our views, work day and

night, remain tolerant and not play with people's fears. We see the same

scenario all over Europe. But, until you sort this problem out, it will

undermine your comments and those of the government when they say, we

think that Bulgarian citizens in the EU union are being unfairly

targeted. What we see in Europe is a campaign that was based on the same

way we see nationalism in Bulgeria working. They target Syrian refugees

in the same way as we have seen organised campaigns against

Bulgarians, Romanians, Slovakians, in different countries. The numbers

tell for themselves. In Germany, they have a problem with Bulgarians

Romas. Bulgarian citizens in Germany are unemployed at 7.4%. The Germans

are unemployed 7.7%. That tells me that Bulgarians in Germany run

better and perform better than the Germans in Germany, based on

education and employment. The OECD has said there is a rapid decline in

Bulgeria's population and a third of that is because of international

emigration, from looking at the figures of the last two years. When

are you going to see a future for your own people to stay in their own

country and enjoy peace and prosperity? In the next years, I'm

sure the wave of Bulgarians moving back to my country will be coming. I

talk to them wherever they are going in the world. As president, the

first thing I do is speak to them. I was in Qatar a week ago. Do you

think people from Britain will go back to have a better life that? We

saw already, I was in Germany, and we had 400 engineers moving back. An

objective process that has happened in all the other EU countries, and

we are now right in the middle of this process, we are moving in the

right direction, improving on the ground in terms of democracy,

infrastructure, rule of law, and they will come back. Rosen

Plevneliev, thank you for coming on HARDtalk. Thank you.

It is turning much colder. Still fairly mild and wet. The mild air is

being pushed away. The blue colour is taking hold of the map and the

cold air will be in place through the weekend. Temperatures start the