19/03/2014 HARDtalk


19/03/2014

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Welcome to HARDtalk. Here at the Bulgarian Embassy in London. My

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guest today is Bulgaria's President, Rosen Plevneliev. His is one of the

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EU member states that is most dependent on Russia for energy

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needs. What did he make of EU moves to toughen sanctions against Moscow

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over the Crimea crisis? Can the EU afford to get tough with Russia?

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President Rosen Plevneliev, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Can the

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European Union really afford to get tough with Russia over Crimea? We

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have seen a major breach of international law that leads to

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losing trust. When you lose trust with someone, you need to act. Act

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in what way? Tougher sanctions? Is that something you would like to see

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the EU do? Widen the circle of travel bans, asset freezes? I do not

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think we should be fighting a war, I do not think we should be going back

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to the Cold War. In the 21st century, such things are impossible.

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You cannot send your troops, you cannot occupy the territory of an

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independent state and you cannot organise illegal referendums in

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order to annex territory in front of the global community, that is

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impossible. We need to stand to our values and act with a strong voice

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and clear actions. That is the difficulty though, isn't it? To act

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with one clear, strong voice. The EU is not getting tough with Russia, is

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it? The sanctions against Moscow have been described as "pathetic" by

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the former British Foreign Secretary, Malcolm Rifkind. We are

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at the beginning of a long process. The game has changed. It has changed

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for a long time. We have seen an aggressive and nationalistic Russia.

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The answer is asymmetric but it is steady and clear. We need to have a

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new policy towards Russia. The head of the Socialist party in Bulgaria

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says, do not expect Bulgaria to be among the Hawks in the EU, our

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country has no interest in sanctions against Russia which would be

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harmful to several Eastern European countries including Bulgaria. Is he

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right? What we have heard, that is the shape of the European Socialist

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and the Bulgarian Socialist party. What we have heard is, basically, we

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do not want to fight the European Union or Russia. I know it is not

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your party, you are not from the Socialist Party. But just on that

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point made by the head of the Bulgarian Socialist party, is he

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right that Bulgaria cannot afford to have tough sanctions against Russia?

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Your gas supply is 85% from Russia. Economics is one, the other is who

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you are, what do you represent and what are your values? I represent a

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nation which is the most pro`European nation in the world. A

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nation with a vibrant society that wants democracy. This is telling me

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that we should work and support and we should be fighting for a strong

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European Union that stands against anyone who is blocking the

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international rule of law. You want tougher sanctions then? Wider trade

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economic sanctions, bring in Putin's inner circle on individuals who have

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been identified for travel bans, you want to see more robust sanctions?

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Yes or no? I want to see a strong Bulgaria committed to its values of

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democratic and European development and I want to see a strong European

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Union that is standing to support the society of Ukraine. To support

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the peaceful democratic development and I have to tell you very clearly,

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Crimea is, and will be, Ukrainian. Ukraine will be European. Bulgaria

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during the Soviet area was one of the countries that was closest to

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the Soviet Union. You say you want to be good EU citizens, how to you

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do that as well as managing your relationship with Russia, which of

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course is very important to you. That is clear but you have moments

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of history and sometimes you don't. We do face today a moment of history

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today for us, for our choice and our society, for Europe and the world.

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What would you think if tomorrow we do have Russian minorities in other

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countries? We do have them in Estonia. It could be possible that

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they can call Moscow and Moscow will send troops into other countries? Is

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that possible? We need to act and it is not just about numbers... You

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have this condemnation by the fact of the matter it is difficult to act

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against Russia. Isn't it? Particularly for the EU. Just look

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at the difference between the EU and the United States in the economic,

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trade and financial ties. Russian, American trade is about $30 billion

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a year and the United States only exported about $9 billion worth of

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goods to Russia. Russia and the European Union, not just energy, the

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deep ties account for about $400 billion a year. So, the United

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States can afford to get tough with Russia on sanctions but not be EU.

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look at the numbers between the EU look at the numbers between the EU

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and Russia, they are huge. But what we see, what we need is a new

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policy. What we need to do is to work devotedly to diversify and to

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make sure that they are dependencies will be used. That will not happen

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overnight, will it? You get your gas through a pipe from Russia. You have

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suffered in the past over disputes between Ukraine and Russia. Let me

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put this to you, the acting Prime Minister in Ukraine, Arseniy

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Yatsenyuk, has said Crimea is moving from a political government to a

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military one. Do you see it that way as well? I do not want to see it

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that way. I hope there will be no war there. The European Union,

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because of that also, is sentenced to have a strong voice and clear

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policy that is consistent and that is going to affect and that is going

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to work. If there is no trust, then investors cannot trust anyone. They

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will pull their money out. If there is no trust, if the markets are not

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trusting any more, that might be a problem. If there is no trust, then

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banks, it is difficult to be refinanced because we do not know

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and we do not trust. The EU is adapting. Let me give you an example

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for Bulgaria, what are we going to do. In my country, that will be a

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process that will move across the whole region. We depend on the gas

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supply at we want to change that. We will be building gas connectors very

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quickly. That will take the few years, won't it? Just staying with

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this military issue that Arseniy Yatsenyuk has raised, Bulgaria is a

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member of NATO and has taken part in military exercises on the Black Sea.

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Do you envisage any possibility of NATO asserting itself in these

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waters to try and warn Russia from future escalation in this conflict?

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What we need today in south`east Europe, definitely is more NATO. We

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will be very active by working with our allies to secure our part. That

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will upset the Russians. They are saying, Ukraine have fallen out with

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the Soviet Union and become a member of the EU. And also become a member

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of NATO. President Putin has said in a speech this week, he does not feel

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that the west in particular understands Russia's mentality.

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Their national interest. He likened the situation in Crimea to German

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reunification. Does he have a point that perhaps, the Russians are

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misunderstood by the Americans, by the EU? Let me give you and other

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point which is very complimentary to what you just asked. You remember in

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1993 when Ukraine was a nuclear armed force? And then the treaty

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powers secured and took their signatures in a special agreement in

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the press.(CROSSTALK). I am asking you a question. What do you think

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about India? What you think about Pakistan? How do you feel about

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other nuclear armed countries? Are they going to work in the future for

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reducing the nuclear treaty on this planet if we have the example of

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Ukraine where actually, an agreement was signed and then completely

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breached? OK. You have made that clear. I want to look at Bulgaria.

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You are the President of Bulgaria. You do have some limited powers.

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Frankly, you have been a politician, and a Cabinet minister under the

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government until 2011. Politicians are very unpopular in Bulgaria,

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aren't they? Your ratings are very low. Absolutely! Why such a bad

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reputation? The numbers for me are better than...(CROSSTALK). You are

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absolutely right. Society today, it demands much more from politicians.

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Civil society does not trust their political leaders and that is

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unfortunate, but that is the truth. There were protests in my own

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country which I have seen as a statement of positivity. Bulgarian

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civil society sent a very clear message. We would like to see

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effective institutions that turn to people, we would like to see our

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state moving into more transparency and predictability. And actually,

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politicians delayed some of the major reforms. That leads to

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reducing the trust of people. You can restore that in a very simple

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way. Do not promise everything. But what you promised, please deliver.

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Part of the protests that you mentioned that were taking place,

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Bulgaria is the poorest country in the EU. According to the World Bank,

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the GDP is 55% below the average EU GDP. Politicians in Bulgaria have

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failed the people. Successive politicians. We need to work hard. I

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am sure that Bulgaria is on the right track. We have seen some

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results. You cannot change today or tomorrow but we are on the right

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track. The problem is every new government that comes in and says, I

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am shifting priorities and changing everything because I am smart and I

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want to do many things. You also have corruption which is a big

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issue. 82% of Bulgarians believe there is corruption in public

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institutions. And that corruption cases are not pursued vigorously

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enough. Mark Gray in Brussels said in

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January: What we have seen in Bulgaria in the last eight years are

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steps in place, but we see the lack of people being brought to justice.

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Failing to put people behind bars. That is what the EU is saying now.

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Corruption is a live issue you have failed to tackle properly. We are

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addressing it clearly. If you look at the numbers, what the EU Court

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issued, with its statistics in 2013, you will see Bulgeria is more

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effective. We see them coming to the country. We see that the mechanism

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in the European communion is an effective tool to improve and

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reform. It won't happen today or tomorrow, but we do have an

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improvement. If you look at the worst statistics, published two

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weeks ago, you will see corruption is a major problem all over the

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world. You score at the bottom of the rankings in the EU. Why are you

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so corrupt? Is that linked to the poverty in Bulgeria? High

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unemployment, people who leave Bulgeria because they want to find

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better opportunities elsewhere ` what is it about your country that

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has put it in this plight? The way you fight corruption is simple. I am

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pushing it from day one of becoming President. That is, open government

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policies. Nothing to hide in regards to public money. We should stick to

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this plan and in 2015 you will see a difference. You have countries in

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the EU, France, the Netherlands, Germany, saying we don't want

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Bulgeria to become part of the Schengen visa`free travel agreement.

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They say they are not sure you can manage your borders and they are

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worried about corruption. That is a big problem. We will see Bulgeria, I

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hope soon. In a two`phase plan. We are working, based on restrictions

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and rules in the area, and all requirements have been met. I'm sure

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about that. Are you sure? The Foreign Minister of France said

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Bulgeria is not able to secure its borders with non` EU members, for

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instance with Turkey, and should be barred from entering the zone. They

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are not favourable to this and there is a lot of work to be done. He's

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not as optimistic. The numbers show a different situation. They show we

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are keeping the borders with non` EU members, e.g. Turkey, in a much

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better shape than other European countries. We would like this to be

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acknowledged. You say that, but let me give you an example. You have a

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border with Turkey and they have a border with Syria and the influx of

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refugees from Syria entering Bulgeria via Turkey has gone up by

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1000 and you now have something like 9000. We do have 10,000 in Bulgeria.

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The numbers have gone up dramatically. We have hundreds of

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thousands through other EU state borders. If you look at the numbers

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again, we are performing much better than many other European states. The

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issue of Syrian refugees in Bulgeria is related to the issue with the way

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they have been treated in Bulgeria and you know the EU High Commission

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for refugees had said you are not treating them very well. It is

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saying that they are kept in deplorable conditions. Asylum

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seekers, not just Syrians, lack access to basic services such as

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food, healthcare, lengthy delays in registration, are deprived of basic

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rights and are at risk of arbitrary detention. One I read that report

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carefully. After the first days and weeks of this wave of Syrian

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refugees entering, those were the facts and that was the truth. But,

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it has improved. We were surprised in the beginning, by having 20`30

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refugees per month, and then we had 1,000`2,000 per month. That was a

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wave we weren't prepared for. If you look at the latest report, issued a

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week ago, the same institution with their signature, is writing about

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improvement. Your message is that we are improving. And, we should enter

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the visa`free travel agreement. But, the way foreigners are treated in

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Bulgeria raises an issue for you, particularly when the Bulgarian

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government criticises the way Bulgarian citizens are treated in

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the EU, where, in popular media, reports of them are that they are

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coming to enjoy welfare benefits. You complain about that. And yet,

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you do see the rather ugly side to anti`foreigner actions in your own

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country. We saw a mosque being attacked, which you have condemned.

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Attacks on Asians and Africans in this past winter. That should really

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worry you. What is worrying me is that those things happened before

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elections. There will be political views in order to make someone

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important. Someone who is playing with people's fears. Someone who is

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showing a nationalistic approach. That, to me, is not patriotic. I am

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coming to the point, the President of France said something very

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important, for Europe and for Russia, he said, patriots are those

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who love their country, nationalists are those who hate the different.

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That is what is happening. A member of the Equal Opportunities

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Initiative in the capital of Bulgeria, Sofia, says that

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nationalism is on the rise in Bulgeria. Absolutely I agree with

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this. I am truly surprised how quickly that happens, because, a

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year or two ago, we did not face such a situation. Bulgarians are

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very tolerant people. We are so proud that we represent a tolerant

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nation, which was the only one that saved, in 1943, its entire Jewish

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population. Now we have, in the latest month and year, a negative

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development by having nationalism on the rise. It is not just Bulgeria,

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many other European countries. We see them on the march in the EU. How

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do you fight them? It is through patriotism, not nationalism. That

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means the devotion of all of us to stick with our views, work day and

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night, remain tolerant and not play with people's fears. We see the same

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scenario all over Europe. But, until you sort this problem out, it will

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undermine your comments and those of the government when they say, we

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think that Bulgarian citizens in the EU union are being unfairly

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targeted. What we see in Europe is a campaign that was based on the same

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way we see nationalism in Bulgeria working. They target Syrian refugees

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in the same way as we have seen organised campaigns against

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Bulgarians, Romanians, Slovakians, in different countries. The numbers

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tell for themselves. In Germany, they have a problem with Bulgarians

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Romas. Bulgarian citizens in Germany are unemployed at 7.4%. The Germans

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are unemployed 7.7%. That tells me that Bulgarians in Germany run

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better and perform better than the Germans in Germany, based on

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education and employment. The OECD has said there is a rapid decline in

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Bulgeria's population and a third of that is because of international

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emigration, from looking at the figures of the last two years. When

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are you going to see a future for your own people to stay in their own

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country and enjoy peace and prosperity? In the next years, I'm

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sure the wave of Bulgarians moving back to my country will be coming. I

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talk to them wherever they are going in the world. As president, the

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first thing I do is speak to them. I was in Qatar a week ago. Do you

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think people from Britain will go back to have a better life that? We

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saw already, I was in Germany, and we had 400 engineers moving back. An

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objective process that has happened in all the other EU countries, and

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we are now right in the middle of this process, we are moving in the

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right direction, improving on the ground in terms of democracy,

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infrastructure, rule of law, and they will come back. Rosen

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Plevneliev, thank you for coming on HARDtalk. Thank you.

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It is turning much colder. Still fairly mild and wet. The mild air is

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being pushed away. The blue colour is taking hold of the map and the

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cold air will be in place through the weekend. Temperatures start the

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