Abu Bakr al-Qirbi - Foreign Minister, Yemen HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur. Yemen is the Arab world's

slow motion car crash. A humanitarian, economic and security

disaster, that makes precious few headlines in the outside world. The

Yemeni government is supposed to be in the middle of a major programme

of political and economic reform, but right now it's focus appears to

be a major assault on local Al Qaeda stronghold. My guess is Abu Bakr

al`Qirbi, the veteran Foreign Minister. If Yemen is a failing

state, who is to blame? Abu Bakr al`Qirbi, welcome to

HARDtalk. Nice to be with you again. It is pretty much three years

since popular rebellion swept through Yemen, and looking at your

country today, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that very little has

changed, and all of the hopes invested in the uprising have been

dashed. Would you agree? No. I think we should be very pleased that Yemen

took apart very different from Syria, from Libya, from Egypt. That

Yemen has managed to achieve transfer of power through democratic

means, and that the situation now is certainly a coalition of political

parties, dialogue which is establishing a future for Yemen. So

I don't think that the hopes are dashed. Maybe economically there are

problems that are faced by the Yemeni people, but I think on all

fronts, Yemen's position is better on all fronts, than it was in 2011.

A few faces have changed, you have a new president, he is new, albeit

elected in a field of just one, but the real fact is that entrenched

power still lies with the same old elite as before. I think this is

probably to some extent true, but there is still a change of faces in

government. With respect, that means very little to the people. The

change, as far as the economy, has been achieved, because unfortunately

the instability of terrorism and violence is still there, and the

government can't cope with everything in three years. I just

look at the words of President Abd Rabbuh Mansur Hadi himself, he was

the deputy to President Ali Abdullah Saleh, and he is now in charge, and

he says that the former president, Ali Abdullah Saleh, is still, in

essence, blocking many of Yemen's attempts to reform itself. He points

to the fact that his wider family, including brothers, cousins, sons,

are still dominant in so many economic sectors in Yemen, and if

you do look at the former president's position, still running

much of the government, I come back to this point. Very little has

changed. President Ali Abdullah Saleh is still the leader of one of

the major political parties in the country, and it is part of the GCC

initiative that there is a 50`50% division in government between the

ruling party and opposition parties. If you also look on the

side of the opposition parties, you will see that the leadership is

exactly the same, it hasn't changed. This nothing has changed.

You were the first Foreign Minister in 2001, you have been in and out of

the foreign ministry ever since. Your PM I believe is aged 79, the

President himself is pretty much 70, you have an old guard, a generation

of leaders who dominate your country, when the reality is that

most of the people in Yemen are desperately poor, and I think two

thirds of them are aged under 24. They look at people like you, and

they think, you are entirely out of touch with their needs. I think this

is probably a presumptuous statement. I think people look at

us, especially as old guards, but I think they also look at us as a

stable factor between now and the next election. I don't think we have

taken over, in this government, the responsibility for stabilising the

situation and the GCC initiative. Maybe all of us are old guard, but

we are also people who are committed to implement the GCC initiative, to

prepare a new institution and gopher elections. That is what we are

doing. Old guards with old habits. The reputable corruption measuring

organisation, transparency International, has you now down

almost at the very bottom of the global index on corruption. The US

State Department reports that anybody in Yemen who blows the

whistle on official corruption either rents up five or coming to

some other form of personal harm. Corruption is more endemic today

than it was before the uprising. This is unfortunate, I agree with

you. This is a fact, and I don't think anyone can defend corruption,

I would certainly not. The people you work with other problem. I think

some of them are, not all of them. Once again, you generalise.

Corruption is everywhere, but not everyone is corrupt. Therefore, you

have to look at it in the sense that this is a transitional period,

people have to tolerate it until we hope a new election will did the

people a new government that can maybe resolve all these issues. I

suppose it comes we have seen the long`running dialogue, the national

dialogue, to try to thrash out a new constitutional settlement, and

insure a transition to genuine democracy. The trouble is, after all

of the talk, and I think 1400 different specific puzzles to go

into a new constitution, we appear to be no closer to a real, unifying

consensus. No, I think many of them that did not achieve consensus...

The federalisation of Yemen, for example. The government says there

will be six autonomous regions, as well as the capital region. We have

had the leader of the southern secessionist union saying absolutely

not, that is unacceptable, and we will continue our struggle and

ignore this. The hoody leaders in the North, they have also rejected

it, where is the consensus? It is still debatable now. I think you

have to understand that in Yemen, we also go through this, dialogue is

always a wave of reaching an agreement. I think that people, in

spite of the misgivings of the outcomes, should approve Yemen for

continuing to have this dialogue. You say that all of this is leading

in pot a positive direction, that Yemen is on a path to a genuine

transition. Why is it the case that those supporters and friends of

Yemen, and they call themselves the friends of Yemen, who have promised

vast financial assistance, are now saying, unless we can believe in

your commitment to deliver genuine change, we are not going to give you

any more money? No, I think they say, unless you do economic reforms,

we are not going to deliver them. Not change, because they all

understand that changes taking place. You have just been here for a

meeting... Yes, and this is one of the contentious issues. The issue of

the subsidies for fuel. Because you have a fiscal crisis, the government

is spending money it doesn't have. This has to be rectified, and our

friends and allies are right in saying that we have to correct the

deficit by removing the subsidies. At the same time, they must

understand that in a very fragile political situation, people have

also to be given hope that there is improvement in their standards of

living, that we are moving forward on the economic side, before you

subject them to additional cost through the removal of subsidies. It

cannot have escaped your notice that such is the lack of patience with

Yemen, in the UN Security Council for example, serious consideration

is being given to sanctions. Targeted sanctions on those members

of the old guard in Yemen who are deemed to be most responsible for

the corruption that has laid your country low. Do you support the idea

of opposing sanctions? Yes, I think everyone in Yemen does. The former

president, Ali Abdullah Saleh, doesn't welcome them. His party has

welcomed it. Would you welcome sanctions? I don't think you should

look at individuals. This is the road problem, what is important is

that the major political parties, that major sanction should be put in

place for those who are destructive to change. Would you welcome

sanctions being imposed on former president Ali Abdullah Saleh and his

family. Anyone who obstructs . So yes? It talks about all those who

are obstructive to the process. Yes. At the beginning of this interview,

you frankly acknowledge that there is a whole generation of old guard

leaders in your country who have been tied to corrupt practices. This

it could mean the end for a generation of leaders. Yes, that is

true. That is why there is change in Yemen now. We have talked diplomacy,

let's now talk a bit more directly about security. Here are the words

of a respected analyst, who actually try to form a new political party in

your country in 2011, and he said recently that in 2011 people were

willing to drop their guns and work for the idea of a civil state. Now,

he said he feels that people again feel that you can achieve more if

you take up arms. I don't agree with that at all. Anybody who says that

should look at Syria. Nobody is saying that taking up arms does

anything positive for your country, but the fact is, if civil society

still appears broken, if corruption and the old guard are still in

place, then many people in your country may well feel on a local

level, maybe because of tribal identity, religious identity, that

they have a right to take up arms. What happened in 2011, there was

change, maybe it is not complete, but there is change now. It wasn't

achieved by arms. Let's look at one particular element of the security

situation, that is the continued presence of Al Qaeda in the Arabian

Peninsula, on Yemeni territory. In the last few weeks, you have

launched another major offensive against them. Few have `` do you

have any faith that you can end the conflict? I think if anyone had

achieved that in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria. This is what we have always

advocated, but fighting terrorism needs a more copper heads of

approach, and not using the military alone. `` com prohibitive approach.

This is to make sure they achieve their political objectives by

democratic means, not by terrorism. Perhaps you should deliver that

message to your own president and your own military, because we have

seen airstrikes, drone strikes, military ground assaults, and dozens

and dozens of civilians... These have to be done, unfortunately, to

prevent them from undertaking terrorist attacks. Civilians have to

be killed? Civilians, no, civilians have unfortunately been accidentally

injured because they were in close proximity. And killed. Look what

happened at the wedding party last year. 12 and 15 members of that

wedding party were killed, they were civilians. That was regrettable, and

the government took responsibility and compensated them. They were in

the same convoy of cars as terrorist groups. A human rights activist to

have looked at many of the military incidents, which have been called

counterterror, which appear to have killed civilians, says this: The

brutal reality is Yemenis are forced to live with the fear of terrorism

that comes not just from Al Qaeda but from the state as well. I think

the state use of force is really to protect the innocent from being

murdered and mutilated in a terrorist attacks. Unfortunately,

there are always innocent people in the vicinity and they are affected

by it. Have you seen the research from political scientists which

showed that there is a direct correlation between rising Al Qaeda

membership on the ground and those areas where, for example, drone

strikes have been focused? There is a direct correlation. I haven't seen

that. Does it surprise you? It doesn't. There is always sympathy

when they are civilians killed, that people tend to react and be

sympathetic. In fact, it's a sort of counter active `` counter productive

strategy? We knew this would last 11 years. If it is counter`productive,

why are you still doing it? What else will we do? Let terrorists, and

conduct attacks? But you are making the problem worse, recruiting new

terrorists for the way you conduct your security operations. That's

what I said earlier. That's why we have defined new ways of really...

We are establishing in Yemen now strategies to counter`terrorism that

will not look at the military side only but on all social, economic,

educational and religious issues. It is a very conflict matter. It's easy

to talk about not using force and personally I am a doctor and I am

against using force. You can't tie your hands. Well, you can adopt the

most sensible strategy and admittedly in very difficult

circumstances. To let us specifically address the question of

whether Yemen is sensible to continue to allow American drone

strikes on your territory. Yemen is using its own forces. They have used

drones because of necessity. These are American drones. Yes, but they

argue is to buy direction of the Yemeni government in remote areas.

Human Rights Watch says in January the president indicated to their

officials that he does not insist on preapproval of every specific US

drone strike. He says they are generally permitted according to

parameters that have been agreed. There is co`ordination between

Alston at agencies and the Americans. There is co`ordination

but does the president signed off on every single American... I don't

know about that. I have no information about that. Do you think

you should? Yes. And if he doesn't? I think he should. How do you

characterise the security relationship with the US? There's

lots of talking Yemen about Yemen being agreeable to building a new

detention at `` detention camp, a Guantanamo Bay style detention camp,

to put those 80 or so prisoners from Guantanamo that are Yemeni, to put

them on your territory and in a sense get President Obama out of a

whole. I don't think this is true. `` a hole. These people who will be

released from Guantanamo and will come back to Yemen after 12 or 13

years of detention and psychological trauma, you can't just bring them

and put them back into their comedies. We have to address this

psychological trauma. We have to train them. We have to prepare them

to be integrated back into their communities. What you call a

detention centre is a rehabilitation centre. Isn't this the most basic

fact, Foreign Minister, that in the end Yemen is so reliant on American

military, financial, and other forms of assistance, that in essence you

will do what the Americans tell you to do? This is not true. We rely on

British assistance, on other countries, but in the end Yemen

takes the decision that it serves its own national interests. When you

look at the situation in Yemen, and the president has said this, the

number of foreigners who have come to Yemen and joined from many other

countries, including Britain, and those who are now leaving Syria and

come to Yemen, how can they get to Yemen and pass through so many

countries? Who is responsible? But that's missing the point. He says

that 70% of nearly `` militant fighters in Yemen are foreigners. He

has at different times laid Iran for creating trouble in the north of

your country. `` blades. It's easy to blame outsiders. No, of course.

But I am telling you the facts. Are their foreign fighters in Yemen or

not? Of course. I come back to this point... How do they come from

Britain? From Syria? From Saudi Arabia? Who is responsible? Yemen?

Yemen is responsible for... A local MP saw civilians killed by US drones

and said that this is the primary motivation for local people to join

Al Qaeda. No, I think you have to accept all so that every country is

responsible, as well as Yemen. If you don't admit that, this is one of

the failures of filing terrorism. Let's end by just trying to tease

out hope for Yemen's future. `` failing terrorism. We have alluded

to the economic mess your country is in. That's why you are in London, to

try to get new assistance and goodness knows your country needs

it. I believe more than half of Yemen's people currently rely on

humanitarian assistance. Poverty is rising. Because of demographics, the

problems will get worse. Yes. I believe the population could double

in the next 20`25 years. As a man who cares passionately about the

future of your country, how do you convince me that Yemen's future is

anything but bleak? I think it's very difficult to answer for sure.

Yemen has the potential. This potential can be realised, I hope,

through changes taking place through the help of the friends of Yemen

now, through focusing on the economy and security, as well as on

political issues. I have said in the friends of Yemen meeting that over

the last three years everybody was preoccupied with politics and

neglected the economy and security. And that the friends of Yemen now

fight against terrorism and extremism in Yemen and that's part

of the global fight against extremism and terrorism, whether it

is Islamic or not. Therefore, unless people look at the cost Yemen pays

for this and tries to help it the situation will get worse. But I felt

yesterday and before yesterday that there is a commitment from our

brothers in the GCC, from Europeans, from British, from Americans, that

they are willing to stand by Yemen. In the politest most diplomatic

possible way, isn't that akin to a form of blackmail? You are saying to

the outside world, you have to help us because, if you don't, the

consequences for regional and international security will be so

bad that we can't be answerable for what happens in Yemen. You can't

call it blackmail if it is true. If it is true it isn't blackmail. So,

the security consequences, the continued failure in Yemen, will be

grave? It will be for the region and for the world. This is why people

have to stand by Yemen in this very critical transitional period. We

have to end of their `` there. Abu Bakr al`Qirbi, thank you for being

on HARDtalk. It will be southern parts of the UK

that get the best deal as far as the bank holiday weekend is concerned

but for Friday it is northern areas that get the