Malcolm Turnbull - Minister for Communications, Australia HARDtalk


Malcolm Turnbull - Minister for Communications, Australia

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arrested since February. Now on BBC News it's time for

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Hardtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. Whoever told

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Australia the lucky country was onto something `` dubbed. This vast

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resource rich nation has outperformed other economies over

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the last decade. Right now, Australia doesn't seem at ease with

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itself or its Asian neighbours. Why? My guest is Malcolm Turnbull,

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mutations minister in Tony Abbott's Australian government. ``

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communications. Is Australia in danger of alienating friends and

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partners? Malcolm Turnbull, welcome to

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HARDtalk. White you are part of a government who came to power in

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autumn. Within two months the polls suggested the move had turned and

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the opposition was more popular than the government. It is called the

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shortest honeymoon in political history. What is going on? We are

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getting on with the job. After succeeding to office after six years

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of very bad leadership by the Labour Party, running up massive deficits,

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massive debt, really, a dysfunctional government at war with

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itself. The civil war between Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard was an

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extraordinary phenomenon. It was a lot of hard work. We have got to

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knuckle down and get it done. In a way, you have the Labour Party are

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so unpopular in Australia and yet, within months of you and your lot

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coming to power, the Australian public decided that we are back with

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labour. The only poll that matters is the one on election day and that

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won't be until sometime towards the end of 2016. The critical thing for

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us to do, look, journalists and commentators can read the polls and

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I am not suggesting politicians don't read them, but they are only a

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snapshot in time, they are not predictive and the important thing

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to do for all of us in government is focus on the task at hand. The

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public will judge us at the due date late in 2016. It we will get to

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policy issues in a moment. The politics of Australia are

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fascinating for you, because he you are serving in a liberal led

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government. You, six years ago, were the leader of the Liberal Party and

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you were toppled by Tony Abbott, the man who you now serves as a cabinet

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minister. Is that proving difficult for you? Not at all. We serve the

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Australian people. It is not a dictatorship or a presidential

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system. Tony Abbott is the leader, the PM. He is, in any Westminster

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system, part of a collective leadership. He he is very socially

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conservative. You seem a very different sort of social Liberal

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Party member. The Liberal Party is a broad church and Tony and I agree on

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a lot of things and we have very well`known differences of opinion on

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some others. The differences are not... In politics and in public

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debate, it is always the differences that are highlighted and people

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overlook that there is actually, between people and indeed parties,

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often a lot of commonality. Let's pick out some of these conservative

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thoughts and opinions that Tony Abbott holes, because they have

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gained traction. For example, on the issue of women. I can give you a

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raft of controversial quotes. Abortion, he said, is the easy way

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out. He said that quite a long time ago. Anyway. Still, Tony has got a

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fairly... Tony is a... Look, generalising about Catholics is

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ridiculous because it is the largest in the world. There is great

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diversity. Tony is a conservative person in matters of what you might

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call faith and morals. All of our views, all of us grow up and as we

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grow up and get older, we learn more and our views change and Tony Abbott

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is no exception. He is dead set against having a conscience vote on

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gay marriage. That's not true. It seemed to be true when you suggested

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it would be a good idea and you told the party they wouldn't be one. We

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have said and he has said, and it is the party's position which we took

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to the election, that whether we have a free vote on gay marriage in

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this parliament will be decided by the party room, not by the leader

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and not by the Cabinet. Lletget on the record. Do you believe the party

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must have a vote of conscience, a free vote on this very important

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social signal issue of gay marriage in Australia? I think we should have

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a free vote and I have been public about that and if there is a free

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vote, then I will vote subject to the detail of the legislation, to

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support gay marriage `` let get on the record. If the party goes

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against that, will you feel comfortable serving in the Abbott

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government? It is a keen business. I would be disappointed if we didn't

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have a free vote. I think we will. Whether there is a majority in the

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Parliament to legislate for same`sex marriage remains to be seen. You

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have to remember, there has been a complete seachange on this issue in

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recent years. Same`sex marriage is lawful in all of the major English

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speaking countries that we are closest to, the UK, Canada, South

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Africa and one third of the US, and New Zealand. So, really, I have

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never seen a social issue on which public opinion and legislation has

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moved as quickly as it has on same`sex marriage. Interesting that

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you are suggesting to me that Australia is evolving, Tony

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Abbott's personal views are a evolving. On one really important

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issue, there doesn't seem to be much evolution, and that is immigration.

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It seems Tony Abbott come with his porky stamps, introducing the

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military to respond to unauthorised immigration is playing the same

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playbook that John Howard played in the last Conservative Australian

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administration. He absolutely is playing the same book that John

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Howard did and the reason he is doing it and the reason we support

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it is because the one thing we want to stop is this appalling and

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dangerous trade of people smuggling and the only way you can do that is

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to deprive the people smugglers of a product to sell. There is an

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interesting history to this. It played out when I was Leader of the

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Opposition. Kevin Rudd came into government and he said he wanted to

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change John Howard's laws on border protection. Kevin had the view that

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the limiting factor on unlawful arrivals, on people smuggling, was

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not Australia's domestic policies, but only the circumstances in the

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Middle East, Africa, or wherever the refugees were coming from. He

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recognised humanitarian need an international law. Let me finish. He

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said it was only the push factors that accounted for the decline. What

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we set at the time, and we have been proven correct, was that the push

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factors go from being big two very big, but the limiting factor is

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whether a people smuggler can say to somebody with confidence, give me

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$5,000, get on my boat, and I will get you permanent residence in

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Australia. If you prevent that, then you stop the trade and that is what

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we have done. There have been no unlawful arrivals by boat since

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December 19. Unlawful arrivals don't get to Australian waters because the

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Australian Navy intercepts them and turns them back and in some cases

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the unauthorised would`be immigrants and up in detention camps in

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papillon New Guinea. That was the detention came in papillon new

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Cannae which was established by Kevin Rudd when he recognised that

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his previous policy had been a clique failure and he sought to

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reinstate the Howard era policies `` Papua New Guinea. As we have seen

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with Manus Island, without adequate planning or logistics and security.

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There have been, as you know, a number of tragic incidents. I we are

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talking about this year, one death, scores injured, clashes between

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inmates and security clients. Amnesty International say that

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Australia has spectacularly failed to respect and protect the rights of

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some of the world 's most vulnerable people. It is a illegally

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outsourcing responsibilities to ill`equipped third countries ``

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Third World countries. You are a lawyer. Are you comfortable with

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your `` with what York country is doing? I don't think any of us are

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comfortable with any issue relating to order protection `` with what

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your country is doing. Do you believe you we are in compliance

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with international law. We have harsh measures. Some would say they

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are cruel. What would you say? I would say they are harsh. I wouldn't

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say cruel. Lets not argue about semantics. If you want to stop

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people smuggling, you have to be very very tough. Kevin Rudd

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conducted a massive social science experiment. He believed that his

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approach wouldn't result in a resurgence of arrivals. He had

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50,000, somewhere between five and 10% of those numbers, we don't

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know, drowned at sea. It has been a catastrophe. You have just yourself

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acknowledged that things aren't right in the Manus Island detention

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camp run by Papua New Guinea. Would you have your government closed back

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down? It is a matter for the Immigration Minister, Scott

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Morrison, who is getting that state of affairs into order `` close that

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down. Would you like to see it closed down? No he hasn't, but what

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we want to see is it being properly run and we are taking the steps to

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ensure that happens, well, Scott is taking those steps. You need to

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remember this was set up by Kevin Rudd. I'm not trying to pass the

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blame. He set it up in a screaming hurry to try and get the Labour

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Party's immigration, border protection house in order before an

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election at the truth is that the most effective policy that we have

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at the moment a lot which is the one that John Howard used very

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skilfully, is turning the boats back and that means you are not taking

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people into custody or... There is something reputational at stake. You

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sit here as the communications minister. I assume that part of your

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job is to communicate Australia's case to the world. It seems you have

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a problem when the one hand... Will you tell me the problem? I am about

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to lay it out. At the UN Security Council, for example, Australia

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co`authors resolutions deploring the humanitarian crisis in Syria,

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demanding that the B addressed. At the same time, we see Syrians, on

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leaking boats, desperately trying to get to Australia, being intercepted

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by the Australian Navy, who turned them around and tow them towards

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Indonesia, violating Indonesian territorial waters at the same time.

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It looks like that is a fundamental hypocrisy coming from Australia. It

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is absolutely not. We have a generous humanitarian programme, and

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we take 20,000 humanitarian refugees each year. Aaron the point is, as

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John Howerd said, we, on behalf of the Australian people, we want to

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determine who comes to Australia, and the circumstances in which they

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come. We recognise that the disaster in Syria is staggering, and there

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will be a massive refugee problem, and it will get worse until the

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situation is stabilised. Those unlucky enough to see in leaky boat

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heading to your country will be very unlucky, it is they will get turned

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down, and may well end up in Papua New Guinea. The boats are not full

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of Syrians. The people smuggling business is a business, it is

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essentially a travel business, and unlawful immigration business.

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People are paying $5,000 to get on these boats, and you have got to ask

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yourself, if you are going to have an humanitarian programme, do you

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want to select who should come? The answer to that is clearly yes. If

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you want to do that, you have to stop the people smuggling business,

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because otherwise they end up selecting who you'll humanitarian

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programme is made up of. Let me shift focus to another area where

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Australia is under serious international scrutiny. That is

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climate change. You say, I can't hold Tony Abbott's past words

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against him for eternity, but he did once described climate change as

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absolutely... It is a word I can't actually use on the BBC, it begins

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with, and ends with macro to `` P. You were out of step with your

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party, you still are. The emissions trading scheme was the Liberal

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Party's policy under John Howard. The emissions trading scheme was

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designed... We don't have so much time, and I appreciate this is

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important... Tony Abbott challenged me over this issue, and the party

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changed its policy. Until such time as I ceased to be leader, the

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Liberal Party's policy under John Howard, and under Brendan Nelson,

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was an emissions trading scheme. I accept that, but the reality today

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is that you sit around the Cabinet table, with Tony Abbott. I believe

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this summer it is going to happen, he is committed to the full repeal

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of the carbon tax introduced by the Labour party, and I just wonder

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whether that is a fundamental mistake, if you think it is a

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fundamental mistake. We won an election with the repeal of the

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carbon tax is one of our biggest and most prominent planks. We couldn't

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possibly not repeal it. You could if you given Australia being pretty

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much the most polluting, dirtiest country in the developed world, you

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may laugh, but look at the OECD figures. You are the dirtiest nation

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in the rich world. Isn't it actually a very strange priority for Tony

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Abbott to pick to reveal the carbon tax, when those are the facts? Our

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government is committed to the same emissions reduction target to which

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the previous government was, they are bipartisan. We are trying to

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achieve those cuts without putting a price on carbon, having a programme

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that has been described as direct action, which essentially means

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providing incentives to polluters to cut their emissions, and our policy

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is that this is an alternative approach, and there are many

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alternative approaches to cutting CO2 emissions. You can see them in

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the US. The targets you have set yourself are more lenient, more

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relaxed than those that had been set by Obama for the US, and certainly

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weigh more lenient than those had been set by the European Union. When

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is Australia going to set up to its responsibilities, given the amount

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of emissions you are responsible for? I contest what you are saying.

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The cut is a substantial one, cutting our emissions by 2020 by

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5%. We have had a rapidly growing economy, unlike Europe, so the cut

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on a business as usual basis is actually very large. Don't fall for

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that idea that it is just a 5% cut, it is a very significant cut, and we

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are confident that we can achieve it. The real question for the global

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community, ears, is there going to be a global arrangement going

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forward? We had the disaster at Copenhagen, and we all know that

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without a global agreement we will not get effective abatement of

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greenhouse gas emissions, it is if one country stops admitting a tonne

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and another one in its an additional time, then they hate each other off.

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I want to address some of the issues that are in your area as the

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telecommunications minister. That is the way Australia has handled the

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revelations that have come out of Edward Snowden and what he has told

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us about the mass electronic surveillance, led by the US, of

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internet traffic around the world. We have learned that Australia has

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been very much part of that. Australia has an intelligence

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alliance with the US, the UK, Canada and New Zealand. Before you came to

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power, you said that you thought all Australians should take very

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seriously what Edward Snowden had revealed. Since then, you have

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changed your tune, and said that you believe he has done enormous damage

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to Australia. I don't think you have quite characterised he has done a

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lot of damage, because he has revealed very current, a massive

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amount of very current operational information about the work of the

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intelligence services in Britain and America and Australia. I would have

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thought that as a lawyer who represented Peter Wright in a long

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battle with the British government about the freedom to speak openly

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about what intelligence services do, you would have instinctively

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supported Edward Snowden and the important revelations he has given

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us. There is a huge difference between Peter Wright and Edward

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Snowden. Peter Wright's information was firstly very old, and secondly,

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it had all been published before, and thirdly, Peter Wright offered

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his book to MI5 to blue pencil. Edward Snowden's stuff is absolutely

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current operational staff, and he has never suggested that he would

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submit it for vetting or anything like that. The two cases... Don't

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Australians have a right to know that if they use Gmail or any other

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big corporate internet provider, there is a strong possibility that

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not just Australian intelligence, but US intelligence, there will be

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able to access the information they are putting online? Australian

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intelligence services operate within the law, as indeed it... And

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international lawyer says there is real doubt about that. That

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Australia has been sharing with the US without any warrant or formal

:21:34.:21:38.

permission. Our intelligence services operate within the law,

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that is the fact. You can tell me that, but there has been no

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Parliamentary enquiry to make sure that is true in Australia, has there

:21:46.:21:54.

was yellow there is an intelligence service that regulates it, and I'm

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confident it operates within the law. The thing about Snowden was

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that it was very current, and it has done a great deal of harm. There is

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a very active debate right now that when the organisation and control of

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the internet needs to change, and in the past it has been very much a US

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dominated area. Has that got to change? Putin says that at the

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moment it is a CIA project. Do things have to change because of

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international perception? The US has had a fairly formal role in the

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contracts relating to the administration... Federal

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institutions have had a very important... It has been a formal

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role, only. The best way I can describe it is the way the House of

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Lords is described, it has done nothing in particular, but done it

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very well. Is your opinion that it has to change? Has to be

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internationalised and taken away from the US? The US have said they

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don't want the department of commerce to be involved, even in a

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titular sense. But what the Americans insist on, and we insist

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on and support them in this, as you do in the UK, is that we do not want

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to have the administration of the internet being overseen by

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governments at large. By the UN force a multilateral body. It should

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be run by the internet community, which is how it has been run. It is

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not elegant, what we call it the multi` stakeholder approach. That is

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how the body that administers all of these addresses and domain name

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system is, that is how it has operated in the past, and that is

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how it should operate in the future. It is critical that the internet

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remains free. We believe there should be freedom of the internet

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and freedom on the internet. We have run out of time. Malcolm Turnbull,

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thank you for being on HARDtalk. Monday was the warmest day of the

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holiday weekend, 20 degrees in Cambridge. We had more of a

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southerly trees developing, blowing in some warmer air, ahead of this

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weather front which has brought rain across many parts of the

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