Makaziwe Mandela - Daughter of Nelson Mandela HARDtalk

Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome. We are broadcasting from the BBC's radio Theatre in London.

Benjamin Chavis was one of those wrongfully convicted for and

incident which involved what was called the first political

prisoners. They were only part of one year ago. A group who has

campaigned his whole life or black people to have the same freedoms as

white people. Working for Martin Luther King when he was just 14 and

many years later organising the million man March. American ``

America is called the land of the free. Does that apply if you are

black? Please welcome Benjamin Chavis.

Does a black child, worn in America in 2014, have just as many

opportunities as a white child? `` born in America. I believe a black

child born this year in the US has more opportunities than ever before

but still not equal opportunities. We still have racial prejudice,

racial bias, racism is still a factor in our society. But I can

give you a long and so. In the past 50 years I have seen tremendous

progress. The fact we have an African American as president of the

United States is testimony to the fulfilment of the dream of Martin

Luther King Jr. But they say freedom is a constant struggle. You don't

take the progress for granted, you keep pushing until there is full

equality, a full integrated society. There is still a need for the civil

rights movement? Absolutely. That's good back to 1971, February, North

Carolina. That was a time when the schools had just ended segregation.

Black students there felt they were getting a raw deal. And you were

sent there on the part of your church, as a young man, you are a

minister in the church and you were sent there to do what? I was 24 but

I was a 12 year veteran of the student rights movement. I was sent

there to help with the desegregation progress. The integration of schools

just didn't happen. We had to go to the federal court. They wanted to

provide an opportunity for black young people and white young people

to go to school together and there was resistance. A riot took lace. ``

took place. Even though we were victims of the riot, we were the

target of the Ku Klux Klan and other white supremacist organisations. One

year later, in 1972, we were indicted and were charged. Ten of us

were charged to 282 years in prison. I have the longest sentence. 34

years. Before we get into what happened with the court process,

perhaps we should explain what it was like for a young black guy

growing up in the US at that time. In the early 1970s, it was three

years since Martin Luther King Jr. 's assassination. Ronald Reagan was

president. There was a law and order campaign to suppress the civil

rights movement after Dr King's assassination. I was one of the

young student militants, I must admit, that was arousing the black

consciousness of our community. My church sent me to Wilmington to help

provide an opportunity for young people to express themselves. How?

You used the word militant, which is just you are prepared to go pretty

far to get what you wanted. I was pushing the envelope. Keep in mind,

basic freedom is the freedom of expression. The right to say no to

racism. The right to say no to injustice. A lot of times, in many

places, not just the US but around the world, people's rights to even

say no to injustice has been suppressed. And that was the case in

Wilmington in 1971. You had come from... In your own town, you were

the first black child to have a library card. I desegregated the

library in my home town. I grew up in Oxford, North Carolina. You asked

for a library card? It was not that simple to get a library card. I wish

it was that simple to just ask. We had to organise protests. In case of

the desegregating the library, my parents were still with me. I was so

proud that they stood with me as I demanded the right to simply check a

book out of the library. Racism is very devastating to any group, any

racial group that denies you basic opportunity, basic assets. Even

though I was very young, I understood that something needed to

change. OK. So you are angry, justifiably, given what you are not

able to do but what does that mean that you did in Wilmington. Because

you say that you are the victims. One thing that I learnt from Dr King

was how to channel anger into protest. That's what we did. I

believe in standing up, but you have to stand up in the right way. With

freedom comes responsibility so we organised nonviolent protests. We

presented demands. There was a white owned grocery store which was

firebombed that night. Somebody firebombed, not the Wilmington Ten.

And, even to this day, nobody really knows what happened. And two people

died. During the riot. Here is the thing. It took 40 years. The first

female governor of North Carolina in 2012. We were sentenced in 1972. It

took 40 years for the Governor, not just issue a part in to issue a

pardon of innocence. That was very important. They did their research

and realised that we should not have been arrested. We should not have

been imprisoned or prosecuted in the first place. I am very thankful that

the governor of North Carolina had the courage to issue asked a pardon.

`` us a pardon of innocence. But why was it Courageous? Because,

actually, your conviction had been overturned years before back in

1980. There were various things that happened, your sentence was reduced,

the testimony was retracted. A federal court overturned the

conviction and yet it was 40 years. And you say it was courageous, why?

Because sometimes it is difficult for people in a dominant role in

society to confess to racism. That is difficult. The honourable

governor, in issuing the pardon, said, "Rhis is a case of naked

racism". That is difficult for elected officials, even in 2012, to

admit. Even now. And given the facts of the case? Absolutely. Sometimes

it is not about the facts. It's about telling the truth. And it was

not because, actually, it wasn't so clear cut that there were some

people who think, whatever happens then that you may have had some role

in it. I definitely had a role in mobilising. I had a role in standing

up and speaking out. But we were totally innocent of the false

charges of arson. Totally innocent of conspiracy to assault emergency

personnel. You served four years out of ten. What was that like? I would

not encourage anyone to go to prison to strengthen their faith. Prison

was difficult. It was hard and life`threatening. I decided to keep

my faith in God. Life threatening... I decided not to serve time but make

time serve the cause of the liberation movement of our people.

What do you mean by life`threatening? There was one

report that you did not dare go to the shower rooms for six months. The

first six months, in 1972, I could not go to the shower because there

was a plot to stab me in the showers. I didn't want to get

stabbed so I stayed in my cell. You say that you used the time to get a

masters degree in theology. From Duke University. I was a minister

and I wanted to sharpen my skills. Anyone has to decide how you use

your time. Whether you are free or in prison, wherever you are, it's

how you use your time to make your own self better, to make your

community better and to make the world better. And you read in the

bathroom at night because you could not use... Lights out in your cell

meant... That is correct. You eventually, when you come out, you

continued, at this stage the conviction has been overturned but

you have not been pardoned. When you are in your 40s, 1993, you were

elected to lead what is a hugely important organisation, the NAACP.

Important to you because you were given membership for your 12th

birthday. And it's America's oldest, largest civil rights organisation

with half a million members. A big deal for you. It is the world 's

oldest civil rights association. The NAACP, I was so pleased having

joined it at 12 years old. To be elected in 1993. One of my proudest

moments was inviting Nelson Mandela in 1993 to speak at the convention.

But it didn't go well because, within a short time, someone

threatened to bring a case against you for sexual harassment,

discrimination, wrongful dismissal. You arranged a settlement with the

NAACP's funds and you did not tell the board. It came out and they

sacked you. Well, let's go back to the facts. The fact is, when you are

a civil rights leader, people will make false allegations against you.

At the time, there was a former employee who made false allegations.

Why did you agree to pay her? I wanted to reach an out of court

settlement to protect the organisation from these false

allegations. I want to correct one thing, some members of the board did

know about it. The full board didn't. The chairman knew about it

as well as the general council. Do you regret, was it a mistake to use

money to try and settle... You say the allegations... It wasn't a

mistake to settle. The mistake was not to inform the full board. Do you

think the whole board would have agreed? Absolutely. To defend

itself. To spend ?300,000. That amount was not spent. One of the

reasons it came to light was that you gave her less than that and you

did not settle the full amount. I raised that personally. I just want

to correct the record. You were sacked one year later. Was there a

sense of betrayal that led you then to go from there to accept a senior

position in the Nation of Islam? I wouldn't say it was betrayal, there

was a dispute. The board had to write to make a determination that

it did. I am still a member of the NAACP. Yesterday `` you felt a

victim at the time? I am sort of a veteran of people making false

allegations. I know how to withstand it. Not about feeling a victim? It's

not about feeling of it. It is important, if you are victimised by

any kind of injustice, who have not only the freedom to speak out

against it but to call the facts as they are. K. You joined the nation

of Islam, you took a senior position in a separatist movement, a

controversial separatist movement, calling for... That

African`Americans should have their own nation. Was that a wise thing to

do? Absolutely. First of all, let's get the chronology straight. After

the NAACP, I was the national director of the Million Man March,

still as a Christian minister. That was in 1995, I did not join the

Nation of Islam until 1997. I am very proud of the work that I did

while I was in the Nation, we helped reduce black on black crime in many

communities, helped to stop some of the self`destruction that was going

on in many neighbourhoods. That is why I joined, because I wanted to

get more hands`on on improving the lives of young African`Americans.

That was the whole purpose of the Million Man March, which was very

successful, transformative. Sure, but after the Million Man March, you

changed your name to Benjamin Chavis Mohamed, and there were criticisms

of the Nation of Islam, that it still existed, but that they were

anti`Semitic, antiwhite, prejudiced against gays, is that how you came

to see them? No, absolutely. Even though I work very closely with

ministers, and I did have a senior position in Nation of Islam, and no

time did I ever witness or hear any anti`Semitism. On one occasion,

there was one person, a former collective of the Nation of Islam,

who made some anti`Semitic remarks, and I denounced that person for

doing it. There are several comments of one person referring to the Jews

as satanic. The work that I did with the Nation, I am very proud of.

We helped save lives and transform lives, the Million Man March... It

is almost the 20th anniversary of the Million Man March, and I think

it will be a moment that people celebrate. It is the largest

gathering, on October 16, 1995, in American history. I understand. But

your association with the Nation of Islam that your former... I

associate with a lot of people. Thank God for my associations. I

associated with Martin Luther King, I associated with Nelson Mandela.

Why did you fall out with them? I didn't fall out with them, I just

went back to the church. Why didn't the Nation of Islam get rid of you?

It is not about getting rid of, it is about evolving. Why life is about

evolving. We are celebrating freedom in 2014. Love and good times?

Absolutely. You returned to your church, who decided to terminate

your ministry. They didn't feel that a Christian minister should try to

be a Muslim minister, that is their right. Can you see their point? It

is a little contradictory to say that with God all love is possible,

and then we try to do all things that are possible, and people

criticise you. I am very proud of my evolution, and I think that you

learn as you go in life, and I thank the world in which we live in today,

is a much better place because people sacrifice, people stand up,

people speak out. No mistakes there with the Nation of Islam? Not at

all. You said at the outset that huge progress has been made, but

there is still a lot. A black child born today does not have the same

opportunities as a white child. When you look, the numbers are

staggering. In the 70s, in 1967, they basically earned half of what a

white household did. That has hardly changed. Black unemployment rate,

home ownership, black unemployment is still double the rate of white

people as it was in the 50s. Why have those economic possibilities

not changed for black people? There is a problem of income inequality,

institutionalisation of economic injustice, and it takes time. You do

not solve a problem, a social problem, a racial problem, in two or

three decades. It takes a long time. We are talking about 50 or 60 years,

and these are hardly shifting, these figures. There is a serious

contradiction about the disproportionate impact of the

criminal justice system in the US has had on black people, no question

about it. I want to make sure you are understanding what I am saying.

The figures that you have said are accurate. Those figures expose the

problem of racial injustice, and that it is very deep`seated in in

the US. Even though we have an African American as president, that

doesn't mean that we don't still have problems. The fact that we have

a black President in the White House is itself a very serious step

forward, to not only shedding light on these contradictions, some people

say that the glass is half empty. I don't, I say it is half full. All

the progress we have made is worth continuing to keep pushing... Some

people say that that man in the White House has not done what he

should have done. I disagree... That there are fewer African`American

cabinet members than George W Bush had. Less than half the number that

Bill Clinton had. I believe that President Barack Obama is one of the

best presidents the US has ever had. He's in his fifth term, just

yesterday seven million people signed up for Obamacare, getting

healthcare for the first time. Here in London, you have healthcare. We

don't have that in the US. It takes time. When President Obama was

elected, the economy was wrecked. George W Bush wrecked the economy.

There were two wars that we should never have been in, in Iraq and

Afghanistan. He has ended those wars. The NAACP says of him that

since he took office, white people in this country are doing better,

and black people are doing a full point worse. The responsibility of

the NAACP is to call it how it is... And that is the way it is? That is

the way it is. The income gap for blacks and whites has widened. Since

President Obama came in? No, it was widened before he came in. That is

what they are saying. That is not accurate. I am reading a quote.

Since President Obama first took office... I believe the gap between

blacks and whites in the US is too wide. The question is, how can it be

bridged? I believe that President Obama is doing a good job, I think

that they have just had a report that the housing statistics and the

foreclosure rates, blacks had the highest foreclosure rates, which

started before Obama became president, but now it is coming down

a bit. Black unemployment is still one of the highest, but it is coming

down a little bit. All of these things you have to calibrate, and I

think that taking a broad stroke analysis of whether or not Obama is

a good president or not, it is sort of unfair. Perhaps it comes down to,

your whole life... If you compare Barack Obama to President Bush,

hands down, he is a better president. Hands down. The American

philosopher and academic, Cornel west, said that if you keep folks

intimidated and scared, you give them access, but they are still

scared, and as long as they are scared you are on the plantation.

Cornel west is a close friend of mine, we are colleagues. Certainly,

he is one of the great intellectual giants of our society. His

criticisms have some validity, but my point is that we tend to be

overly critical, we tend not to see the progress that is being made, and

particularly for the young people who are coming up today, my job is

to keep them encouraged, not to discourage. This is not a hopeless

situation, we have made progress. Is there more progress to be made? Yes.

Are we headed in the right direction? Yes. Should it be in the

hands of the people? It is always in the hands of the people. This

militancy, do you still feel militant? It depends on what you

mean by militant. You used the word at the outset. I am still a seasoned

militant freedom fighter. Today. But, I fight for freedom in ways

that can really help change the quality of life of people. Not just

for black people, but for all people. I just want to make sure

that you understand that I am here on this programme not only to fight

for the rights of black people, but for the rights of all people. What

you find out, it you can't stand up for freedom for yourself, you have

to stand up for freedom for people. Blacks, whites, Latinos, Asians,

people from all over the world. That is why I have worked all over the

world to make sure that people's rights are improved. Martin Luther

King said it best, an injustice anywhere is a threat to justice

everywhere. You would still be asking for people to rise up against

injustice? Absolutely. Keep marching, keep standing up, keep

speaking out. We had a bigger worldwide freedom movement than we

did 50 years ago... Why? Because of the injustices, sometimes people

become too tolerant of injustice. Like environmental justice, it is a

major thing. A lot of people are disproportionately exposed to

environmental hazards. Having to build the worldwide environmental

Justice movement, that is something I am working on now. Doctor Benjamin

Chavis, thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk. Ladies and

gentlemen, Benjamin Chavis. Good morning. Yesterday, the showers

were particularly widespread, but the weather through the rest of this

week would be very unsettled, dominated by low pressure. It is

sitting to the north of the UK, these weather fronts keeping showers

going well into the night.