Makaziwe Mandela - Daughter of Nelson Mandela HARDtalk

in ruins. Now it's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk, with me Zeinab Badawi here in the township outside

Johannesburg where Nelson man Della first went to after his release ``

Soweto `` Nelson Mandela. These are the first elections since his death.

Does the ANC, the party he loved, deserved to win, or, does it need to

reinvent itself to answer its critics who say it is failing poor

black people? My guest to `` today is Makaziwe Mandela, Nelson

Mandela's eldest child. Makaziwe Mandela, welcome to

HARDtalk. Does the ANC, the party your father loved, deserved to win

these elections are you'll definitely. `` elections?

Definitely. It deserves to win the election. It is a party that has

worked hard to get us where we are today. I think, with all the

problems that we have within the ANC, I still think it deserves to be

the party that wins. With all the parties within the ANC, what are you

talking about? It is no great secret that there are factions and conflict

within the party. In the last elections, there was a breakaway

group. Are you talking about the group which broke away, the group

which were unhappy about the movement at the time? Yes. It is

public knowledge that a former Defence Minister of the ANC made at

call that people shouldn't vote or spoil their votes, which I think is

irresponsible. I think that however you want to look at it, it is a

party that we still look fondly at. It has a history. Our parents paid

with their lives. We, as their children, suffered a lot. It is a

party that has done quite a lot despite the challenges. We still

have a lot of challenges. No one disputes that this is the party of

liberation by people say that isn't enough any more. 20 years since your

father became the first democratically elected resident of

South Africa. It's not enough any more to save that we are the party

of liberation, we need to reinvent yourself. If you look at 20 years

ago, and where we are today, I think the ANC South Africa has a good

story to tell. The way we live today is better than how we were living

before. There are a lot of things that have changed. There is a lot of

access for black people today. Yes, you can talk about the violence that

we have experienced in South Africa, which is what people mostly talk

about. But, violence exists in most parts of the world. Progress has

been made. The government says 3 million new housing use `` units had

been built. But I put it to you still, the University of Cape Town

published in March, published a study saying that 12 million South

Africans go to bed hungry every night, many of them including

children. Is that progress? There were many more who went to bed...

Bad, that is progress from a very low base. We come from a low base.

We quickly forget where we come from in South Africa. Many more people do

not have jobs. They couldn't live in the suburbs. They couldn't even live

in towns. Just because they were hidden in rural areas, doesn't mean

that they were out of poverty. They were still in poverty. We come from

a violent... (CROSSTALK) you still don't have jobs. Figures say 25% of

the population is without work and it could be up to 40% for young

people. They have no work. You in America, the `` you can't expect

miracles overnight. In America, it is just as high. America has had

over 100 years. When I went there as a student, no one told me where

black people lived. I knew, because it was the same as where we were

living here in South Africa. That country has had freedom for how many

years? 300 years. How much longer to South Africans today, who don't have

enough to eat or a job, no prospect of a job, don't have electricity,

how much longer do they have to wait in your view? Another 20 years? I

think that we are trying. I think the ANC government is trying, with

their limited resources. You have to understand that when the ANC came

into power, they had to service the party debt. If they didn't have to

do that, the money would have been used to address poverty in this

country and development. The finance minister for 13 years in this

country just now standing down as the minister in the office of the

President, he says that last year in April 2013, we, the government

should no longer say it is a's fall. You can't keep laying the blame on

things which aren't as a result of the apartheid. He was the minister

of finance. He was the one who allowed their government, one that

serviced the apartheid debt, he is the one who allowed the corporate

sector in this country to actually take lots of money out of this

economy into England and America. You are the sizing Trevor Manuel Ros

he was it is very good. It is smart to say, we can't blame apartheid. I

am not saying we should. I am saying that he historic factors that cannot

be ignored, that we were beset with, that we couldn't ultimately within

20 years white away, 350 years of injustice and inequality `` white

away. I am only saying give the ANC a chance to address that. I am

asking you how much time? I don't know. One year, five years? As the

economy grows, we will be able to address the social inequalities of

this country. People are impatient now. They said, look, we, like the

appeal of this new agenda set up by Julius, head of the ANC Youth League

who was expelled from the party, we like what he says and what Ronnie

Caswell is saying, don't vote for the ANC because they are delivering.

They say they like the appeal of the alternative messages. I don't know

how many people like the appeal or the alternative messages. We will

not know until we know the results. Not when you `` not until the

election. South Africans are very impatient in terms of delivery of

services. I won't deny there has been corruption, I will admit it.

And there has not been enough service delivery. If there are

things going wrong in the ANC, and if my father was alive, he would

criticise within the ANC and try to correct those things within the ANC.

He wouldn't criticise, however, the ANC outside. He wouldn't agitate for

people to not vote for the ANC. Because, he believes strongly that

things that were wrong in the ANC need to be corrected within the ANC.

When the former Defence Minister of the government says to people, I am

leaving the vote, no campaign, don't vote or vote for the alternative,

they are wrong. What about Desmond Tutu when he said recently, don't

vote cattle. He is saying something similar. Let me put it to you this

way. I respect Desmond Tutu as an elder statesman. He also doesn't get

it right, however. The ANC has been criticised long before this. Yes,

you shouldn't vote casual. Unfortunately, I want to say to you,

in this country, it's not the individuals who directly appoint a

president. You vote for a party. The party vote for a president. Until we

directly appoint Anderlect officials into government, can they be

accountable to the larger populous? `` appoint and lacked. Let me talk.

`` and lacked. I believe in the party and what it stands for. Fact

that there might be things that might not be going right in the

party and that there might be individuals doing things that don't

adhere to the principles, doesn't mean the party is wrong. It's like

marriage. When you are in a marriage, the fact that other people

do certain things in marriage, abuse their wives, it doesn't make the

institution of marriage... (CROSSTALK) you have made that point

clear pool dumber. `` you have made the point clear. The leader

generally becomes president. Is it automatic? Will it be Jacob Zuma?

And, what is the ANC doesn't do well, if it gets less than 60%.

Could there be a move to say that, resident Jacob Zuma, we aren't sure

you should continue as resident. `` president. It has to go in terms of

who is at the top of the list. We have seen Mbeke overturned in the

past. It could happen again. Let me tell you. We don't want to go there.

I need to give you... Is it possible there could be a split within the

ANC. Someone saying we don't think it has performed well and we don't

want Jacob Zuma to be president. Or, he resident, but notice. Just for

one or two years and not five years. I'm not in the national executive. I

believe there is a raging debate in the party about the issues that are

conflicting. There are people who are addressing those issues. What do

you mean? How long Jacob Zuma stays in Rice no. ``? No. I don't think

you can blame Jacob Zuma. It is the movement itself. The senior members

of the movement, the National committee who make the decisions. If

there is a finger to be pointed, it can't be pointed at Jacob Zuma. It

has to be pointed at the party as a whole. You bring up your father. In

1993. He loved the party, but said that if the ANC does to you what the

apartheid government did, then you must do to that government what you

did to the apartheid government. 20 years on. Which is what? What do you

think it must have meant by that? How was apartheid removed? They as a

movement organised themselves to make the apartheid ungovernable. Are

you saying you can do that with the ANC if it does to you what the

apartheid government did? Of course. They know fully well that it is not

there to do just whatever they want. They have a mandate of the people to

govern. That mandate of the people is to say, we want to live in an

environment that is not discriminatory, that is not sexist.

Where blacks are free to move anywhere, where we have access to

education, good education, will have access to jobs and all those things.

You don't have that. The world economic or on put you at 146 out of

148 in a recent study in terms of education standards. I put it to you

that no government or liberation movement, when it took power, has

ever just climbed the grass like this. You have two have a dip before

you climb back up. `` grass. As a criticism of your late father, in

terms of this, he did a lot to bring South Africa together after

apartheid, he did little to dismantle the economic system so it

is still disproportionately benefiting the whites in South

Africa and now, we can see the enrichment of a smaller number of

black South Africans. And the black middle class is very fragile. Is

that a legitimate criticism of your father 's legacy? I don't think it

is legitimate, as I said, there is no individual, there is no "I"

within the ANC, but there is a" weak" . People can criticise, ``we.

They did not dismantle overnight inequalities in society but there is

a danger that if you are not moving deliberately and thoughtfully, you

end up having a country like Zimbabwe, where they ease capital

flight and you will... The economy will be completely dismantled. You

have to understand, when the ANC came into power, there were very few

of us black people, who were highly educated. Highly skilled, highly

trained, who could take over, Billy, the equality. `` fully. We were only

educated to a certain level. I think what the ANC has done is to

encourage more people to move into education, and to acquire very high

levels of education. We are not where we want to be in 20 years, we

could not be there in 20 years. People still have to wait. People

have to wait and be patient. There is a lot of change that is happening

in the education system. Inequality is the new apartheid system in South

Africa, isn't it? You find that inequality in terms of class and in

terms of economic power defines a whole lot of countries in the world.

I would say that there is not any country, perhaps Scandinavia, that

can claim that. Outside of them, no one can claim that they are. I would

like to ask you, there have been some public arguments within your

family, and your stepmother, Winnie Mandela, says that it should be

used, Makaziwe Mandela, the eldest child of Nelson Mandela and you're

2/2 sisters who should be the heirs of the Mandela family ``two half

sisters. Who is the head of the family? Look, by default, I am the

oldest child. But, it is a nonsensical argument really, in my

view, the cause when Walter passed away, there was no debate as to who

was the head of the family. Was there any debate about who becomes

head of that family? It is a nonsensical argument. Who has the

right to use the Mandela name? You are making wine, under that name?

From me, to my sisters, to all of the grandchildren, the 21

grandchildren, they have the right to use that name. And benefit from

it economically? And benefit, as long as... It is right. You make

wine, you have the means to make medallions... Dad wanted to live

rate South Africa, not only participate in politics but

participate in every sector of society. `` liberate. The first

independent leader of Ghana, political freedom, without economic

freedom, is near, and we are experiencing it now. We are not

going anywhere fast with our independence. For me, when he has

been asked by his grandchildren, how do you want us to honour you? He

said in any way you see fit, as long as you do it with integrity, with

honesty, respect of who you are. As a Mandela. It is an agricultural

product which comes from African soil, and employs over 350,000 in

this country, it contributes may be over 1 billion dollars. How do you

know in the future that the name or not be abused? This great man who

was admired by so many all over the world, we saw the turnout at his

funeral... It is a risk that we take. Even if... We just started

getting into the commercial sector, it was abused, long before he was

alive, people were making all kinds of things with his name. It is our

right to claim the right of hours. When we talk... When I talk about

House of Mandela, I am not talking about the politician, I am talking

about what has given him all he has. He emphasises, I was made by

the traditions and customs of my ancestors. It is those values, and

those customs, those traditions, that we honour. That must continue.

You cannot die with it. Do you think that legacy and those values are

being upheld by the present leadership of the ANC president,

Jacob Zuma? We saw how he was booed at your father 's funeral, at the

stadium, when that happened. That does not look like you see the

current leadership upholding those values, that you say your father

had. It was unfortunate. It is not African. For President Zuma to be

booed in a stadium. Not only as President, most of those people who

booed when younger than him. We don't do that in an African culture.

If we are unhappy, there is a way that we voice our unhappiness. With

respect, and dignity. It was not a reflection, what happened at my

father 's memorial service was not a reflection on Jacob Zuma but a

reflection on us, South Africa as a society. We appointed, as South

Africans, Jacob Zuma into the position that he is. If we feel that

he is going astray, and not doing his job... Was he upset? I don't

know, I did not talk to him about it. I know that I felt embarrassed

that day, to be a South African. As people now discuss the future of the

ANC and if it wins the election, and what it will do... Not if, but they

will win. They could get a bloody nose, people are discussing what

they will do. A landmark for you, you turned 60 in May.

Congratulations. Nelson Mandela 's eldest child... Will you go into

politics? No, that is not my role. It is the role of the younger

generations. I am happy. I am happy with where I am in the commercial

sector, and I believe that we can't all go into politics. We had to

spread, we had to spread ourselves. Some go into politics, some have got

to go into the economic sectors, and I believe that we had to transform

the economic sector. Makaziwe Mandela, thank you very much indeed

for coming on HARDtalk. Zeinab Badawi, I appreciated. `` appreciate

it. Showery weather over the last few

days will give way to more general wet weather through the day ahead.

The showers have continued through the night, they are easing the way,

we are watching this mass of cloud towards the south`west, gathering

moisture and strength in the weather system. It is not only going to give

us rain