Makaziwe Mandela - Daughter of Nelson Mandela HARDtalk


Makaziwe Mandela - Daughter of Nelson Mandela

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in ruins. Now it's time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to HARDtalk, with me Zeinab Badawi here in the township outside

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Johannesburg where Nelson man Della first went to after his release ``

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Soweto `` Nelson Mandela. These are the first elections since his death.

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Does the ANC, the party he loved, deserved to win, or, does it need to

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reinvent itself to answer its critics who say it is failing poor

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black people? My guest to `` today is Makaziwe Mandela, Nelson

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Mandela's eldest child. Makaziwe Mandela, welcome to

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HARDtalk. Does the ANC, the party your father loved, deserved to win

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these elections are you'll definitely. `` elections?

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Definitely. It deserves to win the election. It is a party that has

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worked hard to get us where we are today. I think, with all the

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problems that we have within the ANC, I still think it deserves to be

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the party that wins. With all the parties within the ANC, what are you

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talking about? It is no great secret that there are factions and conflict

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within the party. In the last elections, there was a breakaway

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group. Are you talking about the group which broke away, the group

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which were unhappy about the movement at the time? Yes. It is

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public knowledge that a former Defence Minister of the ANC made at

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call that people shouldn't vote or spoil their votes, which I think is

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irresponsible. I think that however you want to look at it, it is a

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party that we still look fondly at. It has a history. Our parents paid

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with their lives. We, as their children, suffered a lot. It is a

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party that has done quite a lot despite the challenges. We still

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have a lot of challenges. No one disputes that this is the party of

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liberation by people say that isn't enough any more. 20 years since your

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father became the first democratically elected resident of

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South Africa. It's not enough any more to save that we are the party

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of liberation, we need to reinvent yourself. If you look at 20 years

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ago, and where we are today, I think the ANC South Africa has a good

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story to tell. The way we live today is better than how we were living

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before. There are a lot of things that have changed. There is a lot of

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access for black people today. Yes, you can talk about the violence that

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we have experienced in South Africa, which is what people mostly talk

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about. But, violence exists in most parts of the world. Progress has

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been made. The government says 3 million new housing use `` units had

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been built. But I put it to you still, the University of Cape Town

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published in March, published a study saying that 12 million South

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Africans go to bed hungry every night, many of them including

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children. Is that progress? There were many more who went to bed...

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Bad, that is progress from a very low base. We come from a low base.

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We quickly forget where we come from in South Africa. Many more people do

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not have jobs. They couldn't live in the suburbs. They couldn't even live

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in towns. Just because they were hidden in rural areas, doesn't mean

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that they were out of poverty. They were still in poverty. We come from

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a violent... (CROSSTALK) you still don't have jobs. Figures say 25% of

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the population is without work and it could be up to 40% for young

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people. They have no work. You in America, the `` you can't expect

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miracles overnight. In America, it is just as high. America has had

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over 100 years. When I went there as a student, no one told me where

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black people lived. I knew, because it was the same as where we were

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living here in South Africa. That country has had freedom for how many

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years? 300 years. How much longer to South Africans today, who don't have

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enough to eat or a job, no prospect of a job, don't have electricity,

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how much longer do they have to wait in your view? Another 20 years? I

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think that we are trying. I think the ANC government is trying, with

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their limited resources. You have to understand that when the ANC came

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into power, they had to service the party debt. If they didn't have to

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do that, the money would have been used to address poverty in this

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country and development. The finance minister for 13 years in this

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country just now standing down as the minister in the office of the

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President, he says that last year in April 2013, we, the government

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should no longer say it is a's fall. You can't keep laying the blame on

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things which aren't as a result of the apartheid. He was the minister

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of finance. He was the one who allowed their government, one that

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serviced the apartheid debt, he is the one who allowed the corporate

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sector in this country to actually take lots of money out of this

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economy into England and America. You are the sizing Trevor Manuel Ros

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he was it is very good. It is smart to say, we can't blame apartheid. I

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am not saying we should. I am saying that he historic factors that cannot

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be ignored, that we were beset with, that we couldn't ultimately within

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20 years white away, 350 years of injustice and inequality `` white

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away. I am only saying give the ANC a chance to address that. I am

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asking you how much time? I don't know. One year, five years? As the

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economy grows, we will be able to address the social inequalities of

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this country. People are impatient now. They said, look, we, like the

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appeal of this new agenda set up by Julius, head of the ANC Youth League

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who was expelled from the party, we like what he says and what Ronnie

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Caswell is saying, don't vote for the ANC because they are delivering.

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They say they like the appeal of the alternative messages. I don't know

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how many people like the appeal or the alternative messages. We will

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not know until we know the results. Not when you `` not until the

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election. South Africans are very impatient in terms of delivery of

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services. I won't deny there has been corruption, I will admit it.

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And there has not been enough service delivery. If there are

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things going wrong in the ANC, and if my father was alive, he would

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criticise within the ANC and try to correct those things within the ANC.

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He wouldn't criticise, however, the ANC outside. He wouldn't agitate for

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people to not vote for the ANC. Because, he believes strongly that

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things that were wrong in the ANC need to be corrected within the ANC.

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When the former Defence Minister of the government says to people, I am

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leaving the vote, no campaign, don't vote or vote for the alternative,

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they are wrong. What about Desmond Tutu when he said recently, don't

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vote cattle. He is saying something similar. Let me put it to you this

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way. I respect Desmond Tutu as an elder statesman. He also doesn't get

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it right, however. The ANC has been criticised long before this. Yes,

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you shouldn't vote casual. Unfortunately, I want to say to you,

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in this country, it's not the individuals who directly appoint a

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president. You vote for a party. The party vote for a president. Until we

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directly appoint Anderlect officials into government, can they be

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accountable to the larger populous? `` appoint and lacked. Let me talk.

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`` and lacked. I believe in the party and what it stands for. Fact

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that there might be things that might not be going right in the

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party and that there might be individuals doing things that don't

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adhere to the principles, doesn't mean the party is wrong. It's like

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marriage. When you are in a marriage, the fact that other people

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do certain things in marriage, abuse their wives, it doesn't make the

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institution of marriage... (CROSSTALK) you have made that point

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clear pool dumber. `` you have made the point clear. The leader

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generally becomes president. Is it automatic? Will it be Jacob Zuma?

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And, what is the ANC doesn't do well, if it gets less than 60%.

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Could there be a move to say that, resident Jacob Zuma, we aren't sure

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you should continue as resident. `` president. It has to go in terms of

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who is at the top of the list. We have seen Mbeke overturned in the

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past. It could happen again. Let me tell you. We don't want to go there.

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I need to give you... Is it possible there could be a split within the

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ANC. Someone saying we don't think it has performed well and we don't

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want Jacob Zuma to be president. Or, he resident, but notice. Just for

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one or two years and not five years. I'm not in the national executive. I

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believe there is a raging debate in the party about the issues that are

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conflicting. There are people who are addressing those issues. What do

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you mean? How long Jacob Zuma stays in Rice no. ``? No. I don't think

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you can blame Jacob Zuma. It is the movement itself. The senior members

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of the movement, the National committee who make the decisions. If

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there is a finger to be pointed, it can't be pointed at Jacob Zuma. It

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has to be pointed at the party as a whole. You bring up your father. In

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1993. He loved the party, but said that if the ANC does to you what the

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apartheid government did, then you must do to that government what you

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did to the apartheid government. 20 years on. Which is what? What do you

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think it must have meant by that? How was apartheid removed? They as a

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movement organised themselves to make the apartheid ungovernable. Are

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you saying you can do that with the ANC if it does to you what the

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apartheid government did? Of course. They know fully well that it is not

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there to do just whatever they want. They have a mandate of the people to

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govern. That mandate of the people is to say, we want to live in an

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environment that is not discriminatory, that is not sexist.

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Where blacks are free to move anywhere, where we have access to

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education, good education, will have access to jobs and all those things.

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You don't have that. The world economic or on put you at 146 out of

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148 in a recent study in terms of education standards. I put it to you

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that no government or liberation movement, when it took power, has

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ever just climbed the grass like this. You have two have a dip before

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you climb back up. `` grass. As a criticism of your late father, in

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terms of this, he did a lot to bring South Africa together after

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apartheid, he did little to dismantle the economic system so it

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is still disproportionately benefiting the whites in South

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Africa and now, we can see the enrichment of a smaller number of

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black South Africans. And the black middle class is very fragile. Is

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that a legitimate criticism of your father 's legacy? I don't think it

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is legitimate, as I said, there is no individual, there is no "I"

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within the ANC, but there is a" weak" . People can criticise, ``we.

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They did not dismantle overnight inequalities in society but there is

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a danger that if you are not moving deliberately and thoughtfully, you

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end up having a country like Zimbabwe, where they ease capital

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flight and you will... The economy will be completely dismantled. You

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have to understand, when the ANC came into power, there were very few

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of us black people, who were highly educated. Highly skilled, highly

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trained, who could take over, Billy, the equality. `` fully. We were only

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educated to a certain level. I think what the ANC has done is to

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encourage more people to move into education, and to acquire very high

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levels of education. We are not where we want to be in 20 years, we

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could not be there in 20 years. People still have to wait. People

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have to wait and be patient. There is a lot of change that is happening

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in the education system. Inequality is the new apartheid system in South

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Africa, isn't it? You find that inequality in terms of class and in

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terms of economic power defines a whole lot of countries in the world.

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I would say that there is not any country, perhaps Scandinavia, that

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can claim that. Outside of them, no one can claim that they are. I would

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like to ask you, there have been some public arguments within your

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family, and your stepmother, Winnie Mandela, says that it should be

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used, Makaziwe Mandela, the eldest child of Nelson Mandela and you're

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2/2 sisters who should be the heirs of the Mandela family ``two half

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sisters. Who is the head of the family? Look, by default, I am the

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oldest child. But, it is a nonsensical argument really, in my

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view, the cause when Walter passed away, there was no debate as to who

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was the head of the family. Was there any debate about who becomes

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head of that family? It is a nonsensical argument. Who has the

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right to use the Mandela name? You are making wine, under that name?

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From me, to my sisters, to all of the grandchildren, the 21

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grandchildren, they have the right to use that name. And benefit from

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it economically? And benefit, as long as... It is right. You make

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wine, you have the means to make medallions... Dad wanted to live

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rate South Africa, not only participate in politics but

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participate in every sector of society. `` liberate. The first

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independent leader of Ghana, political freedom, without economic

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freedom, is near, and we are experiencing it now. We are not

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going anywhere fast with our independence. For me, when he has

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been asked by his grandchildren, how do you want us to honour you? He

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said in any way you see fit, as long as you do it with integrity, with

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honesty, respect of who you are. As a Mandela. It is an agricultural

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product which comes from African soil, and employs over 350,000 in

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this country, it contributes may be over 1 billion dollars. How do you

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know in the future that the name or not be abused? This great man who

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was admired by so many all over the world, we saw the turnout at his

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funeral... It is a risk that we take. Even if... We just started

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getting into the commercial sector, it was abused, long before he was

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alive, people were making all kinds of things with his name. It is our

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right to claim the right of hours. When we talk... When I talk about

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House of Mandela, I am not talking about the politician, I am talking

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about what has given him all he has. He emphasises, I was made by

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the traditions and customs of my ancestors. It is those values, and

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those customs, those traditions, that we honour. That must continue.

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You cannot die with it. Do you think that legacy and those values are

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being upheld by the present leadership of the ANC president,

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Jacob Zuma? We saw how he was booed at your father 's funeral, at the

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stadium, when that happened. That does not look like you see the

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current leadership upholding those values, that you say your father

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had. It was unfortunate. It is not African. For President Zuma to be

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booed in a stadium. Not only as President, most of those people who

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booed when younger than him. We don't do that in an African culture.

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If we are unhappy, there is a way that we voice our unhappiness. With

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respect, and dignity. It was not a reflection, what happened at my

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father 's memorial service was not a reflection on Jacob Zuma but a

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reflection on us, South Africa as a society. We appointed, as South

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Africans, Jacob Zuma into the position that he is. If we feel that

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he is going astray, and not doing his job... Was he upset? I don't

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know, I did not talk to him about it. I know that I felt embarrassed

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that day, to be a South African. As people now discuss the future of the

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ANC and if it wins the election, and what it will do... Not if, but they

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will win. They could get a bloody nose, people are discussing what

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they will do. A landmark for you, you turned 60 in May.

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Congratulations. Nelson Mandela 's eldest child... Will you go into

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politics? No, that is not my role. It is the role of the younger

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generations. I am happy. I am happy with where I am in the commercial

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sector, and I believe that we can't all go into politics. We had to

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spread, we had to spread ourselves. Some go into politics, some have got

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to go into the economic sectors, and I believe that we had to transform

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the economic sector. Makaziwe Mandela, thank you very much indeed

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for coming on HARDtalk. Zeinab Badawi, I appreciated. `` appreciate

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it. Showery weather over the last few

:24:06.:24:25.

days will give way to more general wet weather through the day ahead.

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The showers have continued through the night, they are easing the way,

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we are watching this mass of cloud towards the south`west, gathering

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moisture and strength in the weather system. It is not only going to give

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us rain

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