Natalia Kaliada - Co-founder, Free Belarus Theatre HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk.

I'm Stephen Sackur.

Belarus is Europe?s last old-fashioned dictatorship,

a country where political dissent gets you beaten up and locked up.

My guest today is one Belarusian who has refused to be cowed by

President Lukashenko?s iron fist.

Natalia Kaliada co-founded the Belarus Free Theatre almost

a decade ago.

Directors, actors, even the audience have all faced

arrest - even imprisonment - but still, the shows go on.

Is drama an effective tool of resistance?

Natalia Kaliada, welcome to HARDtalk.

Thank you.

Today, we are going to talk about

the Belarus Free Theatre, which you co-founded almost ten years ago.

Now, you live in exile.

Are you still committed to the Belarus Free Theatre?

Absolutely.

This is my life.

Not just my life, but of my husband are our partner,

Vladimir, and the life of 29 people who are still underground in Belarus

who perform every week.

??FORCEDWHITE How can you maintain that commitment, that link, when,

as I say, the last three or so years, you have

been forced to live in exile?

??FORCEDYELLOW Skype.

That?s a unique thing that exists today.

We go on Skype and talk with our students.

Vladimir directs shows on Skype.

My husband will direct another show very soon about wives,

sisters and mothers, whose sons are in jail in Belarus.

??FORCEDWHITE I need to get my head around that.

How can your husband, an established theatre director, how can he direct

at a distance of 1000 miles or more?

??FORCEDYELLOW It's about connection.

Actors with whom we have worked for ten years are so dedicated.

It is easier for us because we are in London, even though we

were smuggled and are in exile.

They are back there and it is absolutely another

situation for them.

Their commitment is absolutely unique.

The commitment of the two directors, my husband and Vladimir, is unique.

??FORCEDWHITE In the most literal sense, you say you use Skype.

The actors hold up a tablet, do they?

??FORCEDYELLOW It is funny how it looks.

Even though it is not funny in reality.

First of all, Belarus is one of those countries

that is the enemy of the internet, which I believe you know about.

??FORCEDWHITE They have a sophisticated means

previous presidential elections and it is possible to block it.

There are special hacking attacks by KGB, which we still have,

as the only country from the Soviet Union that still has...

??FORCEDWHITE The secret police known as the KGB.

??FORCEDYELLOW They have a special unit of hackers that hack

all those websites that broadcast information that goes

against what is happening...

in London and in Belarus.

Then, the funny moments begin.

For example, when Vladimir directed two previous

shows on Skype, he was just saying, ?Take me to that corner.?

So his head was moving around that particular tiny room.

Sometimes, it's very good for actors to say, ?You know what, it is

a bad internet connection, we can't hear what you say,? when both of

them get angry with what actors do.

Does it make sense to you?

Is it that radical, politicised, guerrilla theatre?

??FORCEDYELLOW We are radical, politicised people.

I believe this is connected to what we do.

To understand Belarus, it is important to understand that

whatever you say, it is prohibited by authorities.

Whatever topic you choose, for example, suicide, not prohibited.

4.48 Psychosis, a British play, directed by Vladimir,

was prohibited.

It was necessary to find the 27 facilities to check

and two actresses together with a director went to all those places

where everyone said no.

Why?

Because, we don't have suicide in Belarus or sexual minorities.

Yeah, we said it?s in the UK.

If Belarusian people look into it, they watch it, it will happen to

them, that was the answer.

??FORCEDWHITE No official theatre would take on your work at all?

??FORCEDYELLOW It's not possible.

We only have official theatres.

27 official theatres.

We are the only independent theatre that is

not registered with the government.

??FORCEDWHITE If you can't use the official theatre network,

and you have been going for the best part of ten years, what

sort of venues have you been using?

??FORCEDYELLOW Underground.

Forests.

We go into the woods, we go far away from Minsk and it's

not that we created a bicycle.

It was our patron and first president of the Czech Republic who

shared his experience with us, that it should be done undercover.

So, weddings, birthdays, Christmas parties.

??FORCEDWHITE You mean, it is a front for a show?

??FORCEDYELLOW We have a real wedding, with a real bride

and groom, having a feast, go into the villages and then we perform.

Even though we got arrested, even when it was a so-called wedding.

??FORCEDWHITE It seems as though everyone involved from the beginning

has run an extraordinary risk.

And I am talking about you as co-founder, 20:01:23,468 --> 25:19:32,771 I am talking about the directors and actors you use and perhaps, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 most importantly, the audiences. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Everybody involved in every one of your productions is running a risk. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 We 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 We warned 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 We warned them 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 We warned them they 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 We warned them they could 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 We warned them they could lose 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 We warned them they could lose their 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 We warned them they could lose their education, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 We warned them they could lose their education, their 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 We warned them they could lose their education, their jobs. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 We warned them they could lose their education, their jobs. What 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 We warned them they could lose their education, their jobs. What I 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 We warned them they could lose their education, their jobs. What I need 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 education, their jobs. What I need to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 education, their jobs. What I need to say 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 education, their jobs. What I need to say is 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 education, their jobs. What I need to say is that 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 education, their jobs. What I need to say is that it 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 education, their jobs. What I need to say is that it is 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 education, their jobs. What I need to say is that it is only 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 education, their jobs. What I need to say is that it is only 29 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 education, their jobs. What I need to say is that it is only 29 people. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 to say is that it is only 29 people. It 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 to say is that it is only 29 people. It is 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 to say is that it is only 29 people. It is not 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 to say is that it is only 29 people. It is not a 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 to say is that it is only 29 people. It is not a lot 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 to say is that it is only 29 people. It is not a lot for 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 to say is that it is only 29 people. It is not a lot for the 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 to say is that it is only 29 people. It is not a lot for the whole 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 It is not a lot for the whole country 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 It is not a lot for the whole country that 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 It is not a lot for the whole country that people 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 It is not a lot for the whole country that people choose 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 It is not a lot for the whole country that people choose the 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 country that people choose the theatre 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 country that people choose the theatre in 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 country that people choose the theatre in order 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 country that people choose the theatre in order to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 country that people choose the theatre in order to resist 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 country that people choose the theatre in order to resist the 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 theatre in order to resist the dictatorship. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 theatre in order to resist the dictatorship. I 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 theatre in order to resist the dictatorship. I am 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 theatre in order to resist the dictatorship. I am intrigued 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 theatre in order to resist the dictatorship. I am intrigued to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 theatre in order to resist the dictatorship. I am intrigued to know 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 dictatorship. I am intrigued to know what 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 dictatorship. I am intrigued to know what is 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 dictatorship. I am intrigued to know what is the 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 dictatorship. I am intrigued to know what is the mindset 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 dictatorship. I am intrigued to know what is the mindset of 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 dictatorship. I am intrigued to know what is the mindset of the 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 what is the mindset of the audience. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 what is the mindset of the audience. You 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 what is the mindset of the audience. You have 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 what is the mindset of the audience. You have to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 what is the mindset of the audience. You have to accept 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 what is the mindset of the audience. You have to accept some 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 audience. You have to accept some sort 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 audience. You have to accept some sort of 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 audience. You have to accept some sort of responsibility, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 audience. You have to accept some sort of responsibility, do 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 audience. You have to accept some sort of responsibility, do you 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 audience. You have to accept some sort of responsibility, do you not, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 sort of responsibility, do you not, for 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 sort of responsibility, do you not, for their 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 sort of responsibility, do you not, for their safety? 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 sort of responsibility, do you not, for their safety? As 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 sort of responsibility, do you not, for their safety? As we 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 sort of responsibility, do you not, for their safety? As we say, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 sort of responsibility, do you not, for their safety? As we say, our 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 for their safety? As we say, our audience 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 for their safety? As we say, our audience is 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 for their safety? As we say, our audience is the 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 for their safety? As we say, our audience is the bravest 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 for their safety? As we say, our audience is the bravest audience 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 for their safety? As we say, our audience is the bravest audience in 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 audience is the bravest audience in the 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 audience is the bravest audience in the whole 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 audience is the bravest audience in the whole world. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 audience is the bravest audience in the whole world. When 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 audience is the bravest audience in the whole world. When they 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 audience is the bravest audience in the whole world. When they come 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 audience is the bravest audience in the whole world. When they come to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 the whole world. When they come to our 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 the whole world. When they come to our performance, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 the whole world. When they come to our performance, they 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 the whole world. When they come to our performance, they do 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 the whole world. When they come to our performance, they do not 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 the whole world. When they come to our performance, they do not go 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 the whole world. When they come to our performance, they do not go to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 our performance, they do not go to the 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 our performance, they do not go to the venue, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 our performance, they do not go to the venue, so 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 our performance, they do not go to the venue, so they 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 our performance, they do not go to the venue, so they do 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 our performance, they do not go to the venue, so they do not 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 our performance, they do not go to the venue, so they do not go 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 our performance, they do not go to the venue, so they do not go to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 the venue, so they do not go to absolutely 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 the venue, so they do not go to absolutely wonderful 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 the venue, so they do not go to absolutely wonderful venues 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 the venue, so they do not go to absolutely wonderful venues as 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 the venue, so they do not go to absolutely wonderful venues as we 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 absolutely wonderful venues as we perform 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 absolutely wonderful venues as we perform in 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 absolutely wonderful venues as we perform in London. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 absolutely wonderful venues as we perform in London. They 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 absolutely wonderful venues as we perform in London. They go 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 absolutely wonderful venues as we perform in London. They go lower 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 perform in London. They go lower case 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 perform in London. They go lower case underground. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 perform in London. They go lower case underground. We 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 perform in London. They go lower case underground. We have 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 perform in London. They go lower case underground. We have meeting 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 case underground. We have meeting points 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 case underground. We have meeting points from 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 case underground. We have meeting points from where 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 case underground. We have meeting points from where they 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 case underground. We have meeting points from where they are 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 case underground. We have meeting points from where they are taken 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 case underground. We have meeting points from where they are taken to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 points from where they are taken to cases 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 points from where they are taken to cases where 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 points from where they are taken to cases where -- 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 points from where they are taken to cases where -- places 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 points from where they are taken to cases where -- places where 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 points from where they are taken to cases where -- places where we 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 cases where -- places where we perform. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 cases where -- places where we perform. They 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 cases where -- places where we perform. They are 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 cases where -- places where we perform. They are warned 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 cases where -- places where we perform. They are warned they 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 cases where -- places where we perform. They are warned they might 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 perform. They are warned they might be 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 perform. They are warned they might be arrested. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 perform. They are warned they might be arrested. They 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 perform. They are warned they might be arrested. They come 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 perform. They are warned they might be arrested. They come to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 perform. They are warned they might be arrested. They come to see 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 perform. They are warned they might be arrested. They come to see the 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 be arrested. They come to see the shows. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 be arrested. They come to see the shows. When 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 be arrested. They come to see the shows. When we 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 be arrested. They come to see the shows. When we get 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 be arrested. They come to see the shows. When we get on 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 be arrested. They come to see the shows. When we get on Skype 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 be arrested. They come to see the shows. When we get on Skype and 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 be arrested. They come to see the shows. When we get on Skype and talk 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 shows. When we get on Skype and talk to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 shows. When we get on Skype and talk to them 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 shows. When we get on Skype and talk to them and 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 shows. When we get on Skype and talk to them and ask 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 shows. When we get on Skype and talk to them and ask how 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 shows. When we get on Skype and talk to them and ask how many 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 shows. When we get on Skype and talk to them and ask how many new 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 shows. When we get on Skype and talk to them and ask how many new people 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 to them and ask how many new people are 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 to them and ask how many new people are here, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 to them and ask how many new people are here, 40%, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 to them and ask how many new people are here, 40%, new 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 to them and ask how many new people are here, 40%, new people. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 to them and ask how many new people are here, 40%, new people. For 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 to them and ask how many new people are here, 40%, new people. For us, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 are here, 40%, new people. For us, it 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 are here, 40%, new people. For us, it is 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 are here, 40%, new people. For us, it is difficult 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 are here, 40%, new people. For us, it is difficult to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 are here, 40%, new people. For us, it is difficult to comprehend 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 are here, 40%, new people. For us, it is difficult to comprehend that 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 it is difficult to comprehend that there 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 it is difficult to comprehend that there are 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 it is difficult to comprehend that there are so 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 it is difficult to comprehend that there are so many 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 it is difficult to comprehend that there are so many people 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 it is difficult to comprehend that there are so many people who 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 it is difficult to comprehend that there are so many people who are 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 there are so many people who are ready 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 there are so many people who are ready to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 there are so many people who are ready to get 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 there are so many people who are ready to get arrested. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 there are so many people who are ready to get arrested. They 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 there are so many people who are ready to get arrested. They say 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 there are so many people who are ready to get arrested. They say it 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 ready to get arrested. They say it but 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 ready to get arrested. They say it but I 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 ready to get arrested. They say it but I wonder 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 ready to get arrested. They say it but I wonder whether 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 ready to get arrested. They say it but I wonder whether you 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 ready to get arrested. They say it but I wonder whether you sometimes 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 but I wonder whether you sometimes reflect 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 but I wonder whether you sometimes reflect yourself 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 but I wonder whether you sometimes reflect yourself that 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 but I wonder whether you sometimes reflect yourself that may 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 but I wonder whether you sometimes reflect yourself that may be 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 but I wonder whether you sometimes reflect yourself that may be you 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 but I wonder whether you sometimes reflect yourself that may be you are 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 reflect yourself that may be you are putting 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 reflect yourself that may be you are putting people 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 reflect yourself that may be you are putting people in 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 reflect yourself that may be you are putting people in a 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 reflect yourself that may be you are putting people in a position 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 reflect yourself that may be you are putting people in a position that 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 reflect yourself that may be you are putting people in a position that is 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 putting people in a position that is against 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 putting people in a position that is against their 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 putting people in a position that is against their better 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 putting people in a position that is against their better interests. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 putting people in a position that is against their better interests. When 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 against their better interests. When you 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 against their better interests. When you invite 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 against their better interests. When you invite them 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 against their better interests. When you invite them to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 against their better interests. When you invite them to come 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 against their better interests. When you invite them to come to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 against their better interests. When you invite them to come to your 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 you invite them to come to your plays, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 you invite them to come to your plays, you 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 you invite them to come to your plays, you tell 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 you invite them to come to your plays, you tell them 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 you invite them to come to your plays, you tell them you 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 you invite them to come to your plays, you tell them you may 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 you invite them to come to your plays, you tell them you may be 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 plays, you tell them you may be arrested, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 plays, you tell them you may be arrested, they 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 plays, you tell them you may be arrested, they want 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 plays, you tell them you may be arrested, they want to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 plays, you tell them you may be arrested, they want to come. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 plays, you tell them you may be arrested, they want to come. In 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 plays, you tell them you may be arrested, they want to come. In the 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 arrested, they want to come. In the end, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 arrested, they want to come. In the end, when 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 arrested, they want to come. In the end, when the 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 arrested, they want to come. In the end, when the state 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 arrested, they want to come. In the end, when the state security 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 arrested, they want to come. In the end, when the state security police 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 end, when the state security police come, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 end, when the state security police come, brown 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 end, when the state security police come, brown people 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 end, when the state security police come, brown people up 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 end, when the state security police come, brown people up and 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 end, when the state security police come, brown people up and put 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 end, when the state security police come, brown people up and put them 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 come, brown people up and put them in 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 come, brown people up and put them in detention, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 come, brown people up and put them in detention, do 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 come, brown people up and put them in detention, do you 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 come, brown people up and put them in detention, do you ever 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 come, brown people up and put them in detention, do you ever think, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 come, brown people up and put them in detention, do you ever think, we 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 in detention, do you ever think, we have 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 in detention, do you ever think, we have pushed 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 in detention, do you ever think, we have pushed this 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 in detention, do you ever think, we have pushed this too 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 in detention, do you ever think, we have pushed this too far? 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 in detention, do you ever think, we have pushed this too far? It 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 in detention, do you ever think, we have pushed this too far? It is 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 have pushed this too far? It is choice. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 have pushed this too far? It is choice. When 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 have pushed this too far? It is choice. When you 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 have pushed this too far? It is choice. When you live 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 have pushed this too far? It is choice. When you live in 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 have pushed this too far? It is choice. When you live in a 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 choice. When you live in a dictatorship 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 choice. When you live in a dictatorship and 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 choice. When you live in a dictatorship and the 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 choice. When you live in a dictatorship and the dictatorship 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 choice. When you live in a dictatorship and the dictatorship is 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 dictatorship and the dictatorship is for 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 dictatorship and the dictatorship is for 20 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 dictatorship and the dictatorship is for 20 years 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 dictatorship and the dictatorship is for 20 years this 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 dictatorship and the dictatorship is for 20 years this coming 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 dictatorship and the dictatorship is for 20 years this coming July, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 dictatorship and the dictatorship is for 20 years this coming July, it 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 dictatorship and the dictatorship is for 20 years this coming July, it is 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 for 20 years this coming July, it is just 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 for 20 years this coming July, it is just not 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 for 20 years this coming July, it is just not forcible 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 for 20 years this coming July, it is just not forcible for 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 for 20 years this coming July, it is just not forcible for people 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 for 20 years this coming July, it is just not forcible for people to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 for 20 years this coming July, it is just not forcible for people to live 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 just not forcible for people to live in 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 just not forcible for people to live in such 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 just not forcible for people to live in such isolation, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 just not forcible for people to live in such isolation, information 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 just not forcible for people to live in such isolation, information and 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 in such isolation, information and culture. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 in such isolation, information and culture. You 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 in such isolation, information and culture. You need 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 in such isolation, information and culture. You need to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 in such isolation, information and culture. You need to find 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 in such isolation, information and culture. You need to find the 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 culture. You need to find the possible 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 culture. You need to find the possible place 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 culture. You need to find the possible place where 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 culture. You need to find the possible place where you 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 culture. You need to find the possible place where you can 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 culture. You need to find the possible place where you can come 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 culture. You need to find the possible place where you can come to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 possible place where you can come to see 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 possible place where you can come to see people 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 possible place where you can come to see people who 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 possible place where you can come to see people who will 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 possible place where you can come to see people who will think 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 possible place where you can come to see people who will think the 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 possible place where you can come to see people who will think the same 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 see people who will think the same way 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 see people who will think the same way as 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 see people who will think the same way as you 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 see people who will think the same way as you think. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 see people who will think the same way as you think. Do 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 see people who will think the same way as you think. Do you 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 see people who will think the same way as you think. Do you think 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 way as you think. Do you think theatre 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 way as you think. Do you think theatre is 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 way as you think. Do you think theatre is a 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 way as you think. Do you think theatre is a very 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 way as you think. Do you think theatre is a very important 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 way as you think. Do you think theatre is a very important place 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 way as you think. Do you think theatre is a very important place to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 theatre is a very important place to establish 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 theatre is a very important place to establish a 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 theatre is a very important place to establish a sort 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 theatre is a very important place to establish a sort of 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 theatre is a very important place to establish a sort of creative 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 theatre is a very important place to establish a sort of creative space, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 establish a sort of creative space, free 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 establish a sort of creative space, free expression 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 establish a sort of creative space, free expression space, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 establish a sort of creative space, free expression space, in 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 establish a sort of creative space, free expression space, in a 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 establish a sort of creative space, free expression space, in a country 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 free expression space, in a country where, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 free expression space, in a country where, as 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 free expression space, in a country where, as you 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 free expression space, in a country where, as you have 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 free expression space, in a country where, as you have said 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 free expression space, in a country where, as you have said from 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 free expression space, in a country where, as you have said from the 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 where, as you have said from the beginning 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 where, as you have said from the beginning of 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 where, as you have said from the beginning of this 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 where, as you have said from the beginning of this interview, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 where, as you have said from the beginning of this interview, there 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 beginning of this interview, there really 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 beginning of this interview, there really is 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 beginning of this interview, there really is free 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 beginning of this interview, there really is free expression 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 beginning of this interview, there really is free expression - 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 beginning of this interview, there really is free expression - official 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 really is free expression - official allowed 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 really is free expression - official allowed free 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 really is free expression - official allowed free expression 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 really is free expression - official allowed free expression at 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 really is free expression - official allowed free expression at all? 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 really is free expression - official allowed free expression at all? I 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 allowed free expression at all? I think 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 allowed free expression at all? I think it 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 allowed free expression at all? I think it is 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 allowed free expression at all? I think it is connected 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 allowed free expression at all? I think it is connected to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 allowed free expression at all? I think it is connected to people. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 allowed free expression at all? I think it is connected to people. It 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 think it is connected to people. It does 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 think it is connected to people. It does not 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 think it is connected to people. It does not matter 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 think it is connected to people. It does not matter what 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 think it is connected to people. It does not matter what you 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 think it is connected to people. It does not matter what you do, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 think it is connected to people. It does not matter what you do, whether 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 does not matter what you do, whether you 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 does not matter what you do, whether you do 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 does not matter what you do, whether you do theatre 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 does not matter what you do, whether you do theatre or 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 does not matter what you do, whether you do theatre or journalism. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 does not matter what you do, whether you do theatre or journalism. We 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 does not matter what you do, whether you do theatre or journalism. We do 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 you do theatre or journalism. We do not 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 you do theatre or journalism. We do not have 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 you do theatre or journalism. We do not have independent 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 you do theatre or journalism. We do not have independent media 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 you do theatre or journalism. We do not have independent media in 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 not have independent media in Belarus. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 not have independent media in Belarus. All 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 not have independent media in Belarus. All articles 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 not have independent media in Belarus. All articles of 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 not have independent media in Belarus. All articles of universal 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Belarus. All articles of universal human 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Belarus. All articles of universal human rights 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Belarus. All articles of universal human rights declaration 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Belarus. All articles of universal human rights declaration are 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 human rights declaration are violated 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 human rights declaration are violated in 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 human rights declaration are violated in Belarus. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 human rights declaration are violated in Belarus. It 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 human rights declaration are violated in Belarus. It is 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 human rights declaration are violated in Belarus. It is really 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 violated in Belarus. It is really connected 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 violated in Belarus. It is really connected to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 violated in Belarus. It is really connected to not 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 violated in Belarus. It is really connected to not who 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 violated in Belarus. It is really connected to not who you 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 violated in Belarus. It is really connected to not who you are 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 violated in Belarus. It is really connected to not who you are but 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 connected to not who you are but what 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 connected to not who you are but what you 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 connected to not who you are but what you do. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 connected to not who you are but what you do. In 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 connected to not who you are but what you do. In terms 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 connected to not who you are but what you do. In terms of 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 connected to not who you are but what you do. In terms of art 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 connected to not who you are but what you do. In terms of art and 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 what you do. In terms of art and theatre, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 what you do. In terms of art and theatre, I 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 what you do. In terms of art and theatre, I think 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 what you do. In terms of art and theatre, I think when 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 what you do. In terms of art and theatre, I think when a 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 what you do. In terms of art and theatre, I think when a specific 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 theatre, I think when a specific topic 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 theatre, I think when a specific topic is 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 theatre, I think when a specific topic is moved, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 theatre, I think when a specific topic is moved, even 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 theatre, I think when a specific topic is moved, even from 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 theatre, I think when a specific topic is moved, even from a 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 theatre, I think when a specific topic is moved, even from a media 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 topic is moved, even from a media area 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 topic is moved, even from a media area to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 topic is moved, even from a media area to arts 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 topic is moved, even from a media area to arts field, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 topic is moved, even from a media area to arts field, it 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 topic is moved, even from a media area to arts field, it means 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 topic is moved, even from a media area to arts field, it means this 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 area to arts field, it means this topic 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 area to arts field, it means this topic has 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 area to arts field, it means this topic has given 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 area to arts field, it means this topic has given much 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 area to arts field, it means this topic has given much more 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 area to arts field, it means this topic has given much more bigger 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 topic has given much more bigger value. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 topic has given much more bigger value. Then, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 topic has given much more bigger value. Then, already 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 topic has given much more bigger value. Then, already journalists 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 topic has given much more bigger value. Then, already journalists and 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 value. Then, already journalists and politicians 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 value. Then, already journalists and politicians need 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 value. Then, already journalists and politicians need to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 value. Then, already journalists and politicians need to pay 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 value. Then, already journalists and politicians need to pay attention 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 value. Then, already journalists and politicians need to pay attention to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 politicians need to pay attention to it. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 politicians need to pay attention to it. After 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 politicians need to pay attention to it. After 2010 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 politicians need to pay attention to it. After 2010 and 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 politicians need to pay attention to it. After 2010 and an 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 politicians need to pay attention to it. After 2010 and an election 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 politicians need to pay attention to it. After 2010 and an election which 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 it. After 2010 and an election which roused 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 it. After 2010 and an election which roused a 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 it. After 2010 and an election which roused a real 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 it. After 2010 and an election which roused a real wave 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 it. After 2010 and an election which roused a real wave of 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 it. After 2010 and an election which roused a real wave of popular 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 roused a real wave of popular protest, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 roused a real wave of popular protest, anger 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 roused a real wave of popular protest, anger at 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 roused a real wave of popular protest, anger at the 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 roused a real wave of popular protest, anger at the way 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 roused a real wave of popular protest, anger at the way the 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 protest, anger at the way the president 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 protest, anger at the way the president had 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 protest, anger at the way the president had rigged 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 protest, anger at the way the president had rigged the 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 protest, anger at the way the president had rigged the election, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 president had rigged the election, there 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 president had rigged the election, there was 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 president had rigged the election, there was a 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 president had rigged the election, there was a new 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 president had rigged the election, there was a new clamp-down. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 president had rigged the election, there was a new clamp-down. In 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 president had rigged the election, there was a new clamp-down. In that 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 there was a new clamp-down. In that clamp-down 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 there was a new clamp-down. In that clamp-down in 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 there was a new clamp-down. In that clamp-down in 2011, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 there was a new clamp-down. In that clamp-down in 2011, you 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 there was a new clamp-down. In that clamp-down in 2011, you and 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 there was a new clamp-down. In that clamp-down in 2011, you and your 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 clamp-down in 2011, you and your husband 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 clamp-down in 2011, you and your husband were 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 clamp-down in 2011, you and your husband were arrested 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 clamp-down in 2011, you and your husband were arrested yourselves. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 husband were arrested yourselves. This 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 husband were arrested yourselves. This is 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 husband were arrested yourselves. This is where 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 husband were arrested yourselves. This is where it 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 husband were arrested yourselves. This is where it gets 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 husband were arrested yourselves. This is where it gets really 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 This is where it gets really personal. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 This is where it gets really personal. I 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 This is where it gets really personal. I wonder 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 This is where it gets really personal. I wonder if 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 This is where it gets really personal. I wonder if at 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 This is where it gets really personal. I wonder if at that 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 This is where it gets really personal. I wonder if at that point 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 personal. I wonder if at that point you 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 personal. I wonder if at that point you began 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 personal. I wonder if at that point you began to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 personal. I wonder if at that point you began to say 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 personal. I wonder if at that point you began to say to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 personal. I wonder if at that point you began to say to yourself, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 personal. I wonder if at that point you began to say to yourself, the 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 you began to say to yourself, the risks 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 you began to say to yourself, the risks I 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 you began to say to yourself, the risks I have 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 you began to say to yourself, the risks I have been 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 you began to say to yourself, the risks I have been running 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 you began to say to yourself, the risks I have been running have 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 you began to say to yourself, the risks I have been running have cost 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 risks I have been running have cost me 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 risks I have been running have cost me too 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 risks I have been running have cost me too much. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 risks I have been running have cost me too much. What 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 risks I have been running have cost me too much. What happened 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 risks I have been running have cost me too much. What happened to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 risks I have been running have cost me too much. What happened to you 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 me too much. What happened to you and 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 me too much. What happened to you and how 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 me too much. What happened to you and how did 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 me too much. What happened to you and how did you 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 me too much. What happened to you and how did you reflect 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 me too much. What happened to you and how did you reflect on 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 me too much. What happened to you and how did you reflect on the 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 and how did you reflect on the experience 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 and how did you reflect on the experience you 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 and how did you reflect on the experience you had? 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 and how did you reflect on the experience you had? I 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 and how did you reflect on the experience you had? I believe 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 and how did you reflect on the experience you had? I believe our 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 experience you had? I believe our experience 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 experience you had? I believe our experience was 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 experience you had? I believe our experience was not 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 experience you had? I believe our experience was not easy. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 experience you had? I believe our experience was not easy. Even 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 experience you had? I believe our experience was not easy. Even though 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 experience was not easy. Even though I 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 experience was not easy. Even though I was 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 experience was not easy. Even though I was in 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 experience was not easy. Even though I was in jail 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 experience was not easy. Even though I was in jail only 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 experience was not easy. Even though I was in jail only for 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 experience was not easy. Even though I was in jail only for 20 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 experience was not easy. Even though I was in jail only for 20 hours. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 When 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 When you 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 When you are 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 When you are deprived 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 When you are deprived of 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 When you are deprived of water, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 When you are deprived of water, toilet, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 When you are deprived of water, toilet, sleep, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 When you are deprived of water, toilet, sleep, when 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 When you are deprived of water, toilet, sleep, when you 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 When you are deprived of water, toilet, sleep, when you are 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 When you are deprived of water, toilet, sleep, when you are staying 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 for all those hours facing the walls with your hands back and you have 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 the same women staying around you and you understand the whole prison 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 is separated into female and male floors where people are 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 held, and they aren't allowed to move otherwise they are beaten up, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 but I was only there for 20 hours. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 There are political prisoners who are still in Belarus in jails 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 and they are going through nightmares, through tortures there. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Our close friends... 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 You had an amazing person here a few years ago, Andrei Sannikov, who was 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 in jail for more than two years. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 The opposition leader. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 He was running for the presidency on behalf of their position 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 and was winning and that is why he went to jail. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 He was tortured and his wife was arrested and authorities wanted 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 to kidnap his three-year-old son to send to an orphanage. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 In order to get his parents to stop talking and telling the truth. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 That still continues. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 This is what I mentioned. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Did they threaten you two? 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Oh, yes. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 In our situation it is connected to personal stories. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 My father-in-law, after we left Belarus, but continued to push 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 and put pressure on the Belarusian government after having meetings 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 with Hillary Clinton, William Hague and many different politicians, in 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 order to put pressure on the Belarus government, after that, our 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 apartments were raided by the KGB. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Even though they understood we weren?t in the country. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 After one of these raids, my father-in-law had 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 a heart attack and passed away. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 We were not able even to go back and attend the funeral. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Before he died, it was the same day we had the KGB raid and he called us 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 and said that we need to keep going and we need to finish what we 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 started and I believe if we didn't have that phone call from him, it 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 would be not possible to understand how we would keep going. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Our younger daughter when she was 11 was interrogated by police and she 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 was smuggled out of Belarus also. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 I don't mean to belittle your own experiences, and many others in the 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 theatre group, but in the end, are you not preaching to the converted? 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 There is a small group of people in Belarus who are determined to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 stand up and oppose the Lukashenko regime, whatever it costs. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Is the truth not that it is that small group who comprise both 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 the company, your theatre group itself, but also the audience. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 You are sort of talking to yourselves. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Is it really true that ordinary Belarusians are taking the risks 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 and coming to shows, to your performances? 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Of course. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 It is ordinary Belarusians who are coming to our performances. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 And, about that small audience, on 19th December 2010 when there were 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 presidential elections, so-called ones, as we don't have real ones, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 even when there was no single chance for opposition leaders to have a 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 proper time live on TV or radio, could you imagine that 50,000 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 people came there? 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 So, I don't consider that it is a small audience, and it was 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 absolutely amazing in that moment, when I was those hours in jail, when 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 women who were from both sides, they were 68 and 72 years old, and they 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 said they had come there for the first time for the protest. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 And our husbands and sons are on other floors, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 and there were 99% of such people in the jail at that moment. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 It is a huge audience. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 But there is no such repressive regime in other countries, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 that exist in Belarus. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 What matters more to you? 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 The conscience raising that you do outside Belarus, with the 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Young Vic Theatre and others here in London, or the determination to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 keep the secret underground shows going inside your country? 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 It is both. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 It is not possible for us to consider Belarus 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 separately from the global context. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Where have you put on shows? 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Outside of the UK, where you are based, which other 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 countries have you sent the message about the Belarus Free Theatre? 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 We produce shows only using two methods. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Skype, for small performances that we could present in Belarus, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 and we have an absolutely unique partner here, Falmouth University, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 with whom we have a three-year strategic partnership. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 They give us the residency, where we can produce our shows. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 This is the only possibility for us to bring our actors here 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 and work with them. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 The first result that would be possible to see, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 and the result of their residency, would be at the Young Vic in June. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 It is called Red Forest so come and see it. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 They don?t live at the company, we have to smuggle them out of Belarus. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 It is a logistical nightmare, and very dangerous for them. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 At the same time, we always appeal to issues, and we 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 raised those particular topics, that is not only covering Belarus. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 It was all within the nature of the Belarus Free Theatre. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 We go to those countries of the world that don't have enough 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 attention, as we don't have. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Just recently, we came back from illegal refugee 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 camps in Morocco, or from Bangladesh and India, and it will be on stage. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 So you want to get the message out there in as many countries that also 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 have freedom of expression problems. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Let me put this to you quite bluntly. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 It isn't working. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Lukashenko has been in power for several years. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 For ten of those years you have been active in your theatre group. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Today, his grip on power is stronger than ever, and there are signs that 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 the EU is beginning to rethink its isolation policy towards Lukashenko. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 It isn't working. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Mm. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 I believe that it is not working because it is not enough attention 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 by European politicians and journalists. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 One of the journalists in Amsterdam told me, ?Oh, it is so interesting 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 to talk to you for a few days and to discover that such a situation 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 exists in the middle of Europe." 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Whose job is it to talk about countries like Belarus? 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Firstly, it is the job of journalists to talk about cases 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 where human rights are violated so terribly, and EU politicians who 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 didn't solve the last dictatorship of Europe, and now we have what we 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 have with Russia and the Ukraine. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Isn't Ukraine and what has happened there, the crisis in Ukraine, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 "We know Lukashenko is repressive, we know he is a dictator, but the 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 idea of having deep instability in Belarus, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 alongside that in neighbouring Ukraine, is actually even worse." 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Goodness knows what Vladimir Putin would do 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 if Belarus became deeply unstable. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Maybe they have decided that leaving this man in place is 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 the most pragmatic policy. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 I believe it?s the biggest mistake because then we need to go back to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 1936 and to start to talk about Hitler, and what happened that time 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 when Europe didn't do a proper job. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Now, we are in danger of going back to 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 mutated system of the Soviet Union. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Lukashenko said recently, "I have set a task to show 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 the European Union, the entire international community, that 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Belarus is a country that should be loved, appreciated and respected. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 You Europeans should appreciate us as your partners." 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Do you worry that actually, 20 years on, Lukashenko is beginning 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 to win the argument in Europe? 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 No, he is making fools of European politicians, and it was his game 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 for all these years. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 He was blackmailing Russia with the EU, and he was blackmailing 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 the EU with Russia. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 This is exactly what is happening, but it is necessary to understand 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 if, in Belarus, the best selling product, political prisoners... 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 And this is what he says, "I would release political 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 prisoners, you give me money." 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 This is the end of the game. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 They either should put very tough economic and political sanctions 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 in place not only against Lukashenko now but 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 against Putin and stop this game. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Do you believe there will be a time when you can go back and 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 direct, put on your shows yourself, in your home country, in freedom? 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 I do believe there will be that time. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 But it is only possible to make it true if the EU and US have a joint 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 position on that part of the world, and stop talking and just act. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Don't tell me, show me. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 This is exactly what should be done by the European Union, 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 and by United States politicians. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 We have to end there. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Natalia Kaliada, thank you very much for being on HARDtalk. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 Thank you so much. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 BACKGROUND HUBBUB 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 See what life is really like in the favelas. 25:19:32,771 --> 25:19:32,771 This summer, BBC TWO takes a look at the Brazilian superstars