Riek Machar - former Vice President of South Sudan HARDtalk

Carrick, who tweeted his disappointment. You are up`to`date.

Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk.

Today, in the Ethiopian capital, Addis Ababa, for an exclusive

interview with Riek Machar. A former vice president of South Sudan, who

led an armed rebellion against the President Salva Kiir, which has

plunged his country into a bitter civil war. Just days ago, Riek

Machar and Salva Kiir met here in Addis Ababa, and signed a ceasefire

agreement. But already, the deal is looking shaky. So why are did Riek

Machar take up arms `` why did Riek Machar take up arms and teach his

country into a humanitarian crisis `` pitch his country.

Riek Machar are not welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Let us start

with the state of the ceasefire agreement which you signed with

President Salva Kiir just a couple of days ago. Already, that ceasefire

looks extremely fragile. What is your assessment? Well, I think it is

fragile. We have been attacked in five locations. We have also been

attacked in several other locations. You have been attacked, Tuesday. And

I have just seen a statement from the South Sudan government saying

that your rebel forces have been on the offensive and have been

responsible for multiple breaches of the ceasefire. I hope you have

looked at maps. The locations the government was controlling before

the signature of the agreement. You will find that the government has

been on the offensive all these months, since January 23rd. You talk

about January 23, of course, that is when the first cessation of

hostilities agreement was signed. Agreed upon. And it did not last.

Why should the outside world, and more importantly, the people of

South Sudan, have any confidence that this ceasefire agreement is any

more meaningful than the last one? Well, on our side, we are committed

to the ceasefire. Actually, a cessation of hostilities agreement.

So to be clear, you have alleged to me that Salva Kiir's government

forces are attacking you. Does that mean your forces are not responding?

No, we respond in self defence. In defence, we respond. So the war goes

on? Let me tell you the difficulties. In the implementation

of the cessation of hostilities. There are forces that I believe are

not under control of Salva Kiir. The government forces are involved in

the fight. The Sudanese rebels actually four groups, the Justice

and equality movement, the Sudan liberation Army, two factions, and a

group in the north, are involved in the fighting. Hang on, this is

important. You suggesting to me that right now foreign fighters are

refusing to acknowledge the cessation of hostilities agreement

that you signed with Salva Kiir. I have not seen any acknowledgement

from these parties, these forces. The Justice and equality movement is

the one that attacked in a state Brunt several areas. `` attacked in

several areas. In the north, the forced the government. You are

suggesting to me that Salva Kiir is not in full control of the forces

fighting in his name. He of course says that you are not in full

control of the forces fighting in your name. I control the forces that

are fighting in my name. All of are fighting in my name. All of

them? All of them. All of them. And that has been true throughout the

conflict. Is Salva Kiir the commander in Chief of the government

forces? Is the? Has he withdrawn them? Because some are not accepting

the cessation of hostilities. The other forces have not drawn from

South Sudan. So the important point you have just made. You insist you

have been in full control of all the fighters fighting in your name since

the beginning of this conflict last December. Yes? Since we organised

ourselves. By the way, the fighting started as a resistance. We did not

plan a rebellion. We were forced to resist the onslaught of the

government. Believe me, Riek Machar, we will get to that. It is that is

an important part of this story. I want to focus on the here and now.

There are millions of South Sudanese right now who faced the very real

threat of humanitarian catastrophe. They are not getting humanitarian

aid supplies through many of them, close to starvation. The UN says

that 5 million people need emergency assistance right now. Are your

forces prepared to give free passage, safe passage, to all

humanitarian relief work, workers, in the areas you control right now?

We have been doing that. Example. The UN mission in South Sudan,

requested our assistance in giving passage for its members. We did give

that. But the government forces shot at them. And it is the government

that is obstructing the access to humanitarian relief in the areas we

control. So we have been called parading. In the relief agencies and

UN agencies. In the course of the first five minutes of this interview

you have managed to make a series of very serious allegations against

Salva Kiir and his forces. I am beginning to wonder why on earth I

should take seriously that moment just a couple of days ago when you

and he sat together, signed a document together, and said you

would co`operate together to seek a peaceful political solution to South

Sudan's problems. You clearly do not trust him an inch. In my remarks

during the signing of the agreement, which is a roadmap for

peace talks in Addis Ababa. I twice stated that we are committed to this

roadmap. We are committed to support our team, and to support the

initiative of mediation. Do you trust Salva Kiir? When... I do not

necessarily have to trust him. People who fight each other do not

necessarily trust each other until the resolution of the conflict is

done. That would be no, would it? I just... If you do not trust Salva

Kiir, why would you trust that he has any intention of ending his

military operations against your forces? And why would you trust in

his integrity in any future political process? I don't want to

speak against him. Forgive me, you have been very judgemental on him.

You have called him a man who is showing dictatorial tendencies, who

is killing people like flies, who is trying to incite ethnic violence.

These are all words... He did all those. Yes Tomic he did those. Those

are facts. So the agreement that you've signed with him is not worth

the paper it is written on. If you believe this is the man who is a

dictator who kills people like flies, insights violence, why on

earth have you signed an agreement with him? Because we want to find a

solution to the conflict. The solution will not be military. It

will have to be a political settlement. Negotiated. So you are

prepared to still work with this man, Salva Kiir, as president of

South Sudan. We will negotiate. Well that is not a negotiating point, is

it? Salva Kiir is the president of South Sudan. I just want to know...

For the time being he is. But for us he is an illegitimate president who

has massacred communities, targeted communities, and killed or

supervised killing of 20,000 South Sudanese in the capital. You don't

sound like a man who has just signed a ceasefire agreement and is working

future. You sound like a man who is future. You sound like a man who is

still committed to rebellion, to your armed rebellion. first, I am

not a rebel. I am committed to the agreement I signed. But these are

facts. They are not deniable. They are truths. If I don't say them, I

went the truthful. But surely the key fact, and this is where we do

need to go back a little bit into the history of this crisis, the key

fact is that you chose to Rabaul. You say you are not a rebel, but let

me quote you the words of John Kerry, the US Secretary of State,

who was here trying to supervise the end of hostilities, and the

political process just a few days ago. You said the current president

of South Sudan is the elected constitutional president of his

nation. Riek Machar is a rebel, who is unconstitutionally trying to take

power by force, and there is, says Mr Kerry, no equivalents between the

two man. I have heard his statement. Let me talk about what happened in

the process. First, there was no coup. You are talking about last

December, when elements of the National Guard turned their guns

against each other. Was that incident, Salva Kiir immediately

tried to arrest members of many groups. He failed to arrest me. I

slipped away. You slipped away because you obviously were aware

that there was going to be a move against the president. That is why

he called it a coup. No. The court has dismissed his case. He has

released the people. He has withdrawn his case. Where is the

coup? All people know there was no coup. All he wanted to do was

murder. The leadership that had told him on the 6th of December that

things were wrong. The way he was running the country. Are you

suggesting to me... There was no rebellion. There has been resistance

happening against his regime. Let's talk about your responsibilities. I

made a point of establishing whether you believe you can be held

responsible for all of the actions of the men fighting in your name

over the past, almost five months. You said to me, yes, I can. So, are

you prepared to take responsibility for perhaps the single worst

atrocity during the conflict? Your forces going into the town of Bentiu

on April 15 and, according to reports, being responsible for the

massacre of hundreds of civilians. I have heard of the incident. We have

discussed it. We have decided to investigate it because it is also

disputable. But all in all, we say we must investigate it.

Investigate, you say. We are talking about April 15. One month later, you

must have read the UN and Amnesty International report based on

interviews with a multitude of people who catalogue how armed men,

went into a Catholic Church, went into a mosque, went into a hospital

and killed civilians having established their ethnic identities.

This investigation of yours, you must know whether that is true. I do

not know if it is true because there can be also other facts besides

this. The real issue is your ultimate responsibility. What John

Kerry has said that what he has heard from Bentiu and indeed some

other places as well, very disturbing indicators that raise a

serious challenge for the international community with respect

to the question of genocide. I had a discussion with your colleague, I

told him I actually that something that I myself would not accept has

happened in NTU. But why are you only talking about Bentiu. Why are

you not talking about what happened in Dubai with Salva Kiir. When

20,000 people, one ethnic group were killed, massacred. Buried in mass

graves. Why are you not talking about that? You just talked about

the ethnic killing of 20,000 in Juba, do you ever let that you have

an extraordinary personal responsibility to avoid South Sudan

slipping into ethnic hate and killing that the world, of course,

remembers so well from Rwanda, for examples. Definitely, I do have a

responsibility. That is why I am raising this issue. Why is the world

are quizzing two accepting a president who has murdered sections

of his community? Are you saying to me that you will never accept Salva

Kiir as legitimate president of South Sudan? He has lost his

legitimacy. I was his running mate in that election which you are

quoting. I was his running mate. Probably, I did more to ensure he

got elected. If he turns against his own population, why would he

become... Why would he still retain legitimacy? On what basis? He is

destroying South Sudan, he is dividing South Sudan. He is

discrediting the whole nation. And becoming more convinced as this

proceeds that the agreement you side with this man who you have

characterised in this weight is meaningless. It is not meaningless.

Still, we can... You do not even recognise his legitimacy. I do not

have to. We will negotiate with him for the state of people of South

Sudan. We will negotiate and reach eight political settlement. I am

interested in a political settlement. I and not interested in

eight military solution. White but it includes him remaining president

of South Sudan. That is a different issue. Did not, when you are

actually in the same room as Salva Kiir? I heard him say that he is the

president. It was not an issue to me. The issue to me is resolve the

conflict, vertically, peacefully so that South Sudan Canon the peaceful

again. Let's talk about your own political ambitions. You have said

that Salva Kiir in your view is, and it seems it will remain,

illegitimate. There were supposed to be a roadmap process to establish a

new future for South Sudan. Frankly, it is hard to see how it will work

even your characterisation of Salva Kiir. Is it your intention to push

for a return to your old job as vice resident? What do you want? I have

served as vice president. I did what I could do as vice president and I

was satisfied. What do you want from this transitional process? I want a

peaceful solution. First we have to arrive at a peaceful solution. The

guns asked the silent, the transitional government

re`established and we go for elections. As we end this

interview, let's reflect on what has happened to South Sudan, Africa's

newest nation. Only three years old as a nation. All of those high hopes

for Independent have been smashed. We now talk about millions of your

people facing the threat, the possibility of starvation if they

cannot plant their crops this year, if they do not get emergency food

supplies they are in the deepest of trouble. Do you accept some

responsibility for what has happened to your country? Look go back to the

cause of the problem. I did not cause the problem. I did not make a

coup, I did not start a rebellion. There was an uprising because of the

incident that happened. It is unfortunate that we have this

situation. Unfortunate? Is that the best word you can find? I am struck

by something you said a few years ago. Going back 23 years, you, at

the time, work away from the SPL and and there were violent clashes in

southern Sudan and your forces were accused of responsibility for

killing hundreds of Dinka people in poor. Many years afterwards, you

chose to say sorry. Sorry for your rake away from the SPLN. You said

giving an apology is the best way to bring peace and we do not want to

pass these painful things onto our children. We want them to live a

peaceful, democratic South Sudan. If you thought it was important to say

sorry over what happened back in 1991, widely not say sorry now for

what has happened in the last six months? I am the victim. To whom am

I going to apologise? I am the victim. You might want to apologise

to the people. 11 a half million people of your country. I am being

victimised. If we are honest, it seems there is almost no hope of

this so`called peace agreement, cessation of hostilities actually

working. It seems like the wall will go on. I am confident South Sudan

will reach peace. We have gone through difficult periods before

this. We are now going through it and we will get peace. Maybe,

cessation of hostilities. We will get peace. We have to and there but

I thank you very much. Thank you very much.

If you have had enough of sunshine and showers, one more day to go and

then the weather story will change somewhat. We have a queue showers

around at the moment, combining into lines of showery rain across