Salva Kiir Mayardit - President of South Sudan HARDtalk

two months ago. That is it. Now it is time for

HARDtalk. Welcome to a special edition of

HARDtalk from South Sudan. In an exclusive interview today at my desk

is president Salva Kiir of South Sudan whose country is currently

locked in a brutal civil conflict that has killed thousands. `` my

guest. More than a million are homeless. A fragile ceasefire has

been established but can it hold this country back from the brink?

Welcome. Pretty much three years ago, you became the president of a

new independent nation, South Sudan, yet today, here we sit and your

nation seems to be tearing itself apart. Why? After the independence,

we thought that we had a task to deliver services to people. But some

of my colleagues were impatient and could not wait according to what we

had to do. To what we had put down in the Constitution. This is tearing

our country into pieces now. You blame the impatience of colleagues.

You accept responsibility yourself for what is happening to South Sudan

today? What has happened, I can accept but I cannot accept the

mistakes of others especially after the 15th of December 2013. That was

uncalled for. Explain to me what you mean by uncalled for. There was no

reason for leaving peaceful talks. To wage war against a nation. This

is the crux of what has become the conflict. Riek Machar, who was your

vice president until you sacked him in the summer of 2013, claims that

in December of 2013, your presidential guard moved against

Nuer people inside that unit and that that was the beginning of what

became a conflict instigated, he says, by you. He was lying. I don't

think that I can do that. The presidential guard unit, even now,

has no reason to move against any Nuer soldier. The second in command

of that division is a Nuer. He is still with us today. So, if there

was any intention of killing any Nuer, why was he left untouched? I

want to get into the tribal ethnic concerns of the conflict today but

before I do, I must push you further on your relationship with Riek

Machar. He now is leading an armed rebellion inside the country. The

country is, in effect, in a state of civil war. You met with him just a

few days ago and signed a cessation of hostilities agreement and laid

out a process to work together on a new logical roadmap but it sounds to

me like he does not trust you and you do not trust him. As long as we

agree on one thing, I can trust him, if he was sincere to his words, I

can trust him. But if somebody is not sincere, it is very difficult,

even you yourself, to trust that person. We signed a cessation to

hostilities on the ninth of this month and on the 11th, he violated

it, attacking our forces. You think he is actually instructing his

forces to continue their offensive? Definitely. Because he did not give

them orders to stop fighting after signing. Are you saying to me that

the ceasefire is effectively finished? No, it is not finished on

my side. My forces are observing it strictly according with the notice.

I asked Riek Machar a few days ago whether he was truly in full control

of his forces and he insisted that he was. I put the same question to

you. Are you truly in control of all the forces fighting in your name? I

am in full control. These are regular forces under my command. I

am in full control of them. What about the Ugandan battalions that

are still involved in this conflict in this country? What about the

Justice and Equality fighters who are from the south of Sudan and are

fighting in your name? They are not under your control. They are not

fighting under my name. They were brought in by Riek Machar. He is the

one who brought them in. I have spoken to independent security

sources who say that fighters from the Justice and Equality movement

from Darfur are fighting in your name. I don't believe it. The time

they gave me is over. So they did? When someone else was the governor.

What about the Ugandans? They are in South Sudan. They came in after the

incident in December. They have been here since 2006. If I may say so,

there is irrefutable evidence that the Ugandans have been fighting on

your side? I don't deny that. They have been dropping bombs. They have

been here in Juba. They have used cluster bombs. No. I never heard

about that. When the United Nations came to investigate and they were

not given permission to do so, is that because you are embarrassed?

Not at all. I was not given information that some agency wanted

to come and clear mines. I never got that information. You clarify this

as a conflict instigated by Riek Machar but the truth is that right

now, it looks like a conflict between tribes with deep ethnic

hatred fueling the fighting. It is him who has incited the Nuer against

the Dinka. On our side, we have never done that. It has been planned

by Riek Machar and we on our side, always diffuse it and tell our

people, no revenge. Facts do not appear to show that. The first

serious, outrageous acts of violence based on activity appear to have

taken place here in Juba right after December 15. We have reports back

from evidence from the United Nations and Amnesty International of

your troops going into neighbourhoods in this city, seeking

out Nuer men, taking them to security facilities and murdering

them. When I got the information that there was killing going on in

the states around Juba, I set up the commission and then I sent in troops

to arrest whoever has taken the law into his own hands. It is the

security forces who are doing the killing based on ethnicity. Your

security forces. I am not defending them. I am saying that the law does

not know who you are. If the security forces were involved in

that, they must be punished for their actions. Let's not say if. All

of the evidence, including an extensive United Nations report says

that your forces were responsible, will you accept that? I will not

until it is confirmed. The investigation has taken place. The

commission to investigate is there now. Because of those incidents and

the deaths of hundreds of Nuer people and the fact that you know,

right across the city, thousands and thousands of Nuer people fled for

their lives to the safety of United Nations compounds, what we now have

is a conflict that looks dangerously like a Rwanda`style ethnic conflict.

They are now coming out on their own, they have seen that there is

nobody who is targeting them. These people are coming out on their own.

They see that nobody is targeting them. What about the people in those

camps who are frightened for their lives? These people have been

politicised. You say that they are people who have been criticized,

Riek Machar has told them not to come out, that they will liberate

them. Is this what you tell a woman whose husband has been shot in front

of their children? Would you say that she has been politicized? That

is just a woman who is saying that it is dangerous to be a Nuer in a

Dinka dominated city. You cannot get a survivor to tell you the story of

what is happening. Did you ask them? No? His commander of Armed Forces

murdered his own deputy commander. You talk about Peter Gadet, he's

been identified as one who is responsible for serious atrocities

and have had sanctions imposed upon him. The chief of your presidential

guard has also had American sanctions placed upon him and United

Nations Secretary General has said that those who are responsible for

the atrocities and systematic violations of humanitarian law

should be held to account in a special tribunal. I agree. But that

could be you. If it is me that gave the orders, I do not mind facing the

law. Did you give orders? I did not. I did not give orders for fighting.

Riek Machar gave orders for fighting and if you are to listen to the

security people, he ordered his forces to open fire. Riek Machar

says that to understand this conflict today, you have to go back

to your governance of South Sudan over the last two and a half years.

He says that over that period, you behaved more and more like a

dictator. He will have to prove it. He will have to prove what I have

done and that I was a dictator. It is an interesting point you say.

Let's look at the evidence. Let's look at the evidence. Let's look at

the letter written, for example, by a group of senior US State

Department experts and South Sudan experts, who wrote an open letter to

you in 2013 and wrote this. "We joined you in your fight against the

abuses of the regime in Khartoum for many years but we cannot now turn a

blind eye when yesterday's victims become today's perpetrators." That

was a message to you. To correct whatever that might have gone wrong.

In your administration. Even now in the Obama administration, there are

mistakes. In David Cameron's administration, there are mistakes.

You will not count them on Obama and nor will you count them on David

Cameron. But your mistakes appear to have fuelled this crisis. You sacked

your entire Cabinet in the summer of 2013.You behave in a way that lead

even the widow of Dr John Gerang, the father of your nation, to decide

that you should no longer be the president of South Sudan. You

oversaw an administration which repressed the media, which appeared

to be limiting freedom for people in this country. Not at all. We are a

free country. The media is free. Have you seen what they write

against me? When they insult me? I will tell you what I have done. Have

they been arrested? I have spoken with one journalist who said to me

that after he was critical of you on the radio, he was approached by

state security. They said, "We know where you live." They also reminded

him that one journalist who wrote a critical column in the Tribune

newspaper ended up dead. Well, people can take the law into their

own hands. They can threaten you. Was it just coincidence that after

he had written a column describing your regime as incompetent and

useless he was killed? Whoever says that the regime is useless, that is

their right to criticise the government. I believe there are

people also who see a positive part of the government and can say

positive things about the government. But Mr President,

through the course of this interview, you have directed your

words and your criticism at Riek Machar. You have called him a liar.

You say he systematically violates the ceasefire. You accuse him of

disloyalty over many, many years. This is the man that you have said

to your people you will now work with to get you out of this crisis.

How can anybody take seriously your words that you will cooperate, you

will work with him, if this is the way you feel about him? When I talk

against Riek Machar, it is for what he has done. But that does not

really leave me to go my own way and for him to go his own way. We are

citizens of one country. There is a need for us to come together, for us

to embrace what we have agreed upon and implement it so that our country

remains stable. To be clear, then, in the short term, will you invite

Riek Machar back into some senior government position, maybe to become

vice president again? Well, we will come together. It is being discussed

in Addis Ababa. When people come to the conclusion of that, we will come

together and the whole conference... And after that, we will see what

positions are to be given to him in an interim arrangement. You have

talked about interim arrangements, which, as it happens, mean that you

will not be facing elections in 2015. It now seems you are intent on

staying in power until 2017. It is not me, it is not me. Who is it? It

was pushed into my mouth. Pushed into your mouth? By the Americans.

They said no elections. I said, "When do you want the elections to

be held?" I was here with John Kerry. John Kerry basically demanded

you postpone the elections? Yes. Riek Machar says the problems of

this country can only be addressed when you leave the presidency

because you no longer have legitimacy. My presidency is still

valid until next year, when we were supposed to go for elections. By

July, the new government should be... Will you stand down next year?

We have not yet reached next year. Is it a possibility that you will

leave office voluntarily in 2015? We cross our bridges when we reach

them. We don't cross them before. Before we finish, let's return to

the situation on the ground in this country. Because we have the

fighting, we also have a massive humanitarian crisis developing in

South Sudan. Yes. I spoke with the director of the World Food Programme

yesterday and he said it is no longer a question of whether people

die of hunger in South Sudan. It is a question of how many. He is

concerned that your government does not understand how serious the

situation is. No, we understand. We understand. It is not of our making.

It is a man`made disaster and this is why we want the war to stop so

that we can allow humanitarian access to everybody in the country.

We understand that the civil population is going to face one of

the worst famines that has ever been witnessed in South Sudan. This is

the time that is coming. You are using the word famine, correct? Yes.

What will happen when people starve to death? You are sitting here,

saying that your people will starve to death. How does that make you

feel? You have failed. I cannot deny that I wish there was no famine. I

cannot deny it. Facts are facts. We have to stop this fighting so that

we can save the lives of the people, so the people will not die of

hunger. As we finish, let's reflect on where your country is today. We

started by talking about the hopes and optimism of three years ago.

Navi Pillay, the chief of humanitarian affairs in the UN, says

you and Riek Machar must take an enormous amount of responsibility

for what has happened in this country. He says you have been too

busy fighting for power and your personal interests and you have

jeopardised the interests of an entire nation. I think leaders can

be blamed for whatever mistakes they make. When we came to Addis Ababa,

it was the leadership that we wanted to show and this is why we accepted

to sign the ceasefire, although we have doubts that it will not be

implemented. So, for us, for Riek Machar, if he was to be sincere and

frank himself, yes, he would stop his forces from fighting so that we

could address the humanitarian crisis that is unfolding in our

country. As for hopes, I still hope that South Sudan, if there were no

conflict today, we would be progressing very smoothly. With

respect to that, you were not. You wrote a letter to all of your

ministers decrying systemic corruption. And yet $4 billion had

gone missing. Your own office, the Office of the President, was

investigated. Two of your most senior officials were charged with

systemic corruption. With respect, I return to the question. Are you the

man to get South Sudan out of this crisis? It was not me. When I came

to this office, they elected me. I did not come here through bullets, I

came here through the votes of the people of South Sudan. And you still

believe you can pull this country back from the brink? I believe so.

If these people do not stab me in the back, I can bring this country

out of where it is. President Salva Kiir, we must end here, but thank

you very much being on HARDtalk. Thank you very much. After a

relatively quiet day