Kizza Besigye - Ugandan opposition leader HARDtalk

arrested on murder charges. Now it's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to Hyde Park. Today, a former ally of Uganda's president

was of any who have become his biggest critic, Kizza Besigye is

Uganda's best known opposition figure. As the former leader of the

main opposition party, the Forum for Democratic Change, he has run three

times against President Museveni in elections and lost each time. He has

called for popular protests in Uganda like the ones that lead to

the uprisings of the Arab Spring. So why has he failed to mobilise public

opinion behind him? Doctor Kizza Besigye, welcome to

HARDtalk. Thank you very much. You have been in opposition for several

decades now. What have you got to show for it? A lot I think has

changed in Uganda over the last three decades that we have been

active in politics there. And that is because of you? Certainly not. It

is because of very many people. I would not discount my own personal

contribution. What has that been? I think it has been at several

leathers. I was involved in the struggle in the. Military struggle.

It was a protracted struggle that brought the National Resistance

Movement into office. That is the NRM led by President Museveni. We

are looking at times when you are an ally of President Museveni. In 2001,

2006, two double that you stood in elections against it and lost each

time the badly. Is not fair to say I lost cause you only lose if there is

a fair contest. Certainly, none of those contest were fair and is not

just my opinion. It is the opinion of the Supreme Court of Uganda. They

say that the elections were not free or fair and in such a context, you

cannot talk about loses. Is that really the case? Buchenwald as are

the group and the EU both observe the elections in 2011, the ones in

feathery. They said there was some concern about the lack of a level

playing field, the use of money and abuse of incumbency in the process

but the key thing that Acer is that the question of the legitimacy of

the outcome that should not be under question. President Museveni still

would have won. The figures were 60% and he won for the forum to do that

because it change. Of course, that is not a reasonable conclusion. Once

you have said there is a problem with the playing field, it was not

level. There was an abuse of incumbency by bringing in so much

money. Once you have outlined as things, you can't go ahead and make

a conclusion. But they did. That is a diplomatic conclusion. That is

partly the problem with these with external observers. You still insist

that you might have won the elections. I know that we won those

elections. Incidentally, apart from what has been said by the courts of

law which investigated because the courts of law had evidence that was

presented. The case that were presented to court which was in 2001

and 2006, court judges, unanimously agreed that the elections were not

fair. I will tell you what was told by the observers in 2011. Now that

you have failed for whatever reason at the ballot box, you are shifting

your protest to the streets. Trying to get regime change that way? Well,

first of all, we proved that the elections were not free or fair. We

proved that we had popular support and we now want a fair election. Our

protests are not primarily for regime change as they are for a free

and fair election. That is not till 2016. That is not how a lot of

people see it. A man from the independent magazine said in June

2012 after you step down as leader of the FDC in 2012, leading the

street protest. He said this radicalised group, largely led by

doctor Kizza Besigye has now opted for civil protest to promote regime

change. You let regime change we want. You don't necessarily look for

routine change without elections. We think there will be elections that

must be free and fair. We should have a regime change outweigh. Is

that case is that if there was a free and fair election in Uganda...

We cannot be judged what will happen in 2016. I want to explore what you

said. You say you want protests to make sure the elections are free and

fair use it more than that on CNN. You said in 2011 you would not be

surprised if what was happening in North Africa, spread in the rest of

Africa. Talk of a sub Saharan, African spring. It has not

happened. It did not happen even in the Arab countries I was talking

about. It doesn't have to happen the moment you say it will happen. All

the ingredients that caused the Arab Spring are there in most of Africa.

The fact that there is gross marginalisation of large sections of

the population, the fact that there is unbelievable corruption and

monopoly of power of small cliques of people. And gross violation of

rights. All of these things... So you think the ingredients of a?

Definitely. Someone wrote that he sensed an Arab Spring is it less

likely in Africa because gigabyte of their 1,000,001 imperfections, the

political systems in our region are sufficiently participatory, a factor

that mitigate against revolution he disagrees with you. He is just

expressing an opinion. 65% of all MPs and local council officials

don't get re`elected in every election in Uganda. The NRM led by

President Museveni holds 254 out of 379 seat in Parliament. The others

are held by five opposition parties. There is some democratic space in

Uganda. Murder isn't. You must understand the structure of the

state. Power is not controlled by President Museveni. It is controlled

by him as a person. It is in the interest of President Museveni that

MPs and other leaders are not re`elected. Because if they become

powerful within the end`around, they undermine his control over the

organisation and the state. He wants fresh and informs people to perform

the team around him each time. I put it to you that that is some

democratic space. Just look at Freedom of the press. Reporters

without Borders has looked at lots of countries and it has put Uganda

104 out of 179, relatively free press. It than Brazil, Nigeria,

Israel and also a whole load of African countries. In terms of free

press you have chosen a wrong area because more than anybody else... I

moved on to reporters without Borders. Get but in this case he

would know that his organisation, the one that groomed him has been

closed twice by the military invading it and keeping it closed

for weeks. Because of publishing something that was perfectly

factual. I am putting it to you that it is relatively... I am not saying

it is clearly free press but it is moderately free. You do not have the

legal... I would not even categorise Uganda as totally authoritarian. It

is a liberal regime, it is controlled, don't forget that

President Museveni and all of the leaders that have led Uganda, none

of them came to office through an election. All of them came to office

through bombing. Their bond they wear into office. At you with him in

the beginning, when she? You are his personal physician and you backed

him as leader. Yes I did. Were you involved in a bombing campaign is

yellow absolutely. The point here is that all our history, there is

no... There is no change of government peacefully and all the

leaders who have stayed in office have done so with the use of the

military. Unless you don't take into the fact that the military brings

leaders into office, the fact that they are not chosen by the

population, they are not removed by the population means that the

population does not have any control over their leaders. The fact is, if

you look at Uganda's neighbourhood, you have a lot of instability around

you. South Sudan, the problems with Somalia and Al`Shabaab, the terror

attacks in Kenya. I put it to you that actually, as is being observed

in Egypt sometimes people want rule by a strong person. Of the

laboratory is removed and now in elections in Egypt, a lot of people

are backing Abdul Fattah al`Sisi. Another strongman. Abdul Fattah

al`Sisi is the candidate of national necessity rather than the public

desire. There is no choice but to make a military officer and head of

government. Because similar things about President Museveni. You have

to be very careful about this whole debate of stability and democracy.

There is no doubt about the fact that strong leaders can momentarily

create some semblance of stability. And a semblance of peace. Is not a

semblance of stability. It is real. You have bombs in July 2010 in

Kampala when people were watching the football. Healy 80 people died.

You have had raids against militant extremists on an island in Lake

Victoria in August 2013, a couple of dozen people arrested. You have got

a problem in your own country with some Islamist rebels who want to set

up an independent Islamic State in Uganda. About 12% of your population

is Muslim. Without strong institutions, you can create some

zealots of stability and peace. Through coercion and use of diffused

state power of people. It is not sustainable. Actually, the ultimate

effect is worse. Because they have amassed later the institutions of

the state. You have just a strong individual. Once the individual

collapses, the state collapses. This is partly what we have in Somalia

are quite so it is all right if President Museveni stayed in power

indefinitely as long as he is fit and capable to run the country? No.

The point I am putting to you is that first of all, that stability is

not sustainable. It is sustainable at the moment. The US Defence

Secretary at Chuck Hagel in September 2013 thanked President

Museveni for Uganda's leadership in the region. He praised Ugandan

forces for their efforts to defeat Al`Shabaab for which progress

recently approved $14 million extra in aid. If you remove the name of

President Museveni, the US forces could be saying the same about Hosni

Ma Barak. created the impression that he was

the centre... (CROSSTALK) I told you what happened in Egypt. Look what is

happening now. People say another strongman will be voted in. I would

like to attract you to understand that what is happening now is,

things to Mubarak, which undermine state institutions and to strengthen

military and which has led to the situation we are having now ``

thanks. Museveni said in 2011, I am not Idi Amin. He used to murder his

opponents, throw them in the River Nile to the crocodiles. I haven't

heard of bodies being thrown to the crocodiles to eat. Idi Ami and

managed to get himself notorious worldwide. Museveni isn't Idi Amin.

Are you saying that Museveni isn't different from Idi Amin? Absolutely.

Would you have been able to walk around the streets if he was in

power? Unlikely. The difference is simply in the extent. Not in the

direction. They are moving in the same direction. What is your agenda?

You have some support. A political commentator in the daily monitor in

2014 said this about you. The opposition thinks getting to the

people through demonstrations is the best way forward because crowds are

exciting and it makes it great when they can chart anti`government

rhetoric. This doesn't always turn into votes. As a key figure, what

are you saying to people is your agenda? Why should they vote for you

if you were to run? What we are fundamentally trying to deal with

this injustice. Injustice of marginalising large sections of our

people. Our agenda is in three areas. One, to ensure we have an

informed, involved, active citizenry. One that can demand and

ensure that they are well governed. Also, we want institutional

governance, rather than rule, which we are talking about. Institutional

governance is underpinned by their respect for rights, the rule of law,

and, the effective control of corruption. Corruption, which has

devastated all of our services. Three, we want an economy, we want

to build an economy that is inclusive. That is broad`based. We

have been talking about growth in the economy. 6%, 5%, 7%. Very narrow

`based. Is that the case? You have got forecast of 6% growth. The World

Bank, in a 2014 report, said this, Uganda has established a record of

prudent management and structural reform between 1990 and the 2000s.

Strong economic growth enables the substantial reduction in poverty.

They have surpassed the millennium development goal of halving poverty.

It is on track to meet the others. Museveni has a good track record on

tackling poverty. The starting point of the NRM in 1986 was extremely

wrong because the state had collapsed. That wasn't Museveni's

fault. Pardon? He took over a country that was in a bad way. Do

you dispute what the World Bank said, that Museveni... (CROSSTALK)

when you are talking about halving, in statistics, it appears

impressive. If you have been getting $1 a day, if you get $1 50 each day,

you have increased the income by almost 100%. The reality is that the

level of poverty, this is part of the problem of the World Bank, is

that they just used figures and not real conditions of people. The human

development. The conditions of people. I have to say to you, I gave

you the UN millennium development goal, approved by all nations and

Uganda, as I said, surpassed the goal on halving poverty and is on

track to empowering women and reducing child mortality. On track

for strategies for sustainable access to drinking water and basic

sanitation. I am saying, under Museveni, the economy is helping

deliver. No. Over the last 30 years, first of all, Uganda still has the

highest, one of the highest birth rates, the youngest population in

the world with more than half the people in Uganda being less than 15

years. When you are talking about the improvements, you are talking

about improvements against these extraordinary expansion of the

population in a short time. If you are looking at... Why the wait,

mortality has increased from 16 women dying perday to 19. This is

the latest report. It has actually increased. `` maternal mortality. We

have reduced the instances of HIV/Aids. It has gone back up again

so what if you look at other African countries, in some cases they aren't

doing as well as Uganda. What are you going to do now? You are a focal

point for protesting against the government. As I say, you are

involved in walk to work protests against the cost of living in that

kind of thing. You were shot in the hand, partly blinded by the police

when they used pepper spray on you in April 2011. Will you continue to

be the thorn in the side of the government? I am not the problem.

The problem are the contradictions which are there. They cause popular

anger. Myself as an individual, I wouldn't be able to be a problem to

the government. If what I was doing wasn't massively supported by the

people of Uganda and indeed, which poses a threat. I don't know how

many are attending these rallies of yours? We don't see tens of

thousands, do we masse they aren't protesting. If they were not

thousands and thousands of people that support what we are doing, we

wouldn't be a threat to the regime. We don't see tens of thousands

rallying behind you. You failed to rally public opinion. Why would a

live as a prisoner in Uganda. I can't live freely. My home is

surrounded by soldiers. What would cause that? If whatever I do isn't

perceived as a threat regime. I would like to assure you that this

is... The reason it is a threat is indeed that 84% of youth in Uganda

are unemployed. Don't have work. What is it like to work closely with

someone many years ago, admiring them, thinking they are a great

leader, then falling out with them so dramatically? What is it like on

a personal level? Do you talk to him? I haven't spoken with him

directly in 15 years. This was someone you looked after as his

personal physician? Not just looking after him as a physician, also as a

friend. As a colleague in a struggle. And, as someone I was also

professionally related to. And, someone I believe in, someone I

thought was indeed committed to the ideals we are struggling for. You

can imagine the kind of... Blow that... And even trauma that one

feels when you realise that you have invested so much of your time and

effort and you have been conned. What will happen now? Will you run

for elections in 2016, have another go? Our into a focus, not only me,

but the entire leadership of the opposition, including other

organisations, is to demand fundamental political reforms.

Without them, any election is a fast. Yes or no? I won't run unless

there are fundamental reforms which we are investing our time and effort

to achieve. Dr Kizza Besigye, thank you for coming on HARDtalk. Most

welcome. Thank you very much. For the middle part of the week, we

are expecting more rain but I'm sure sooner or later we will