Carl Bildt - Swedish Foreign Minister HARDtalk


Carl Bildt - Swedish Foreign Minister

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more rockets have been launched by Hamas. Now on BBC News, it's time

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for HardTalk. Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Zeinab Badawi. It is out

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with the old and in with the new at the European Union as EU member

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states conduct the usual bout of horse trading following elections

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for the European Parliament. They are selecting a new set of

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officials, including the key post of Commission President. The choice of

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EU insider Jean`Claude Juncker has led to a bitter and public row

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between the UK and other member states. How far has this damaged the

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reputation of the EU? And what does it tell us about the future

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direction of the European Union? My guest today is one of the EU's most

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experienced politicians, Sweden's Foreign Minister, Carl Bildt.

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Carl Bildt, welcome to HARDtalk. Thanks very much. New Commission

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being chosen to take over later this year, is there a clear direction for

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the EU, though? I think there's a clear direction and that will be set

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more firmly in the process that we are now in the middle of. What is

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not really catching the headlines over the last few weeks is the heads

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of states of goverments have certain priorities for the Union in the next

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five years. That is the important thing, a lot of the media is centred

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on personalities but there is a process underway considering

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policies. We do face major policy challenges in Europe. You need to

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connect with the citizens. Italy has just taken over the rotating

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presidency of the EU and its Prime Minister, Matteo Renzi, is quoted in

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the press as saying he is fed up with the EU saying acting like an

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old, boring aunt and he wants the EU to have a soul as well as rules.

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Among your strategic priorities, have you got some soul? I hope we've

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got some soul but I am more concerned, with due respect to

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Italy, but I am more concerned about results. You can talk about souls

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and feelings and emotions but the people of Europe want results coming

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out of European integration and cooperation. We face major

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challenges. We know that the nation states are too small to master those

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challenges by themselves. We must work together. But the workshop is

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not just a process and personalities and all that, it is the ability to

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produce policies that affect the outcome of the lives of our nations

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and our citizens. That's a fairly tall order. Do you accept that this

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is really... It has been a difficult time for the EU, the pro` EU parties

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do have a majority in the parliament, but nevertheless, we saw

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a rise in the Eurosceptic protest vote, and particularly in the UK

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with UKIP, the UK Independence Party, and in France, with the

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National Front, to the extent that the Prime Minister there, Manuel

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Valls, said that the parliamentary election result was a shock and

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earthquake that all of Europe's leadership must respond to. Are they

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listening, do they really acknowledge the scale of what

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happened? I hope that we all do. We need to acknowledge that national

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election results are affected by national factors, the French

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election result can't be explained without looking at the national

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politics and national problems of France, and the same to a certain

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extent in the UK. That being said, we are in the process where a lot of

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people asking where are we heading, what have you done, what can Europe

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give? But in addition we are in this always somewhat messy process every

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five years of selecting the key personalities in setting up European

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institutions. We are in a somewhat difficult process, that's obvious.

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You've heard that lesson. We saw the jump from 31 to 48 in Eurosceptic

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members of the European Parliament from 2009, the last election, that

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is accepted? I think when you look at France, it is national reasons to

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a large extent. That being said, any election, any democratic election in

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any country, certainly in the EU, does send a message and it's

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important for the politicians to listen. The message is we want a

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Europe that delivers results, results that are relevant to us.

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When you were Prime Minister in Sweden, you signed the treaty that

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allowed Sweden to join the EU in 1994. You're recognised as an EU

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enthusiast. What would you, Carl Bildt, say to EU citizens who

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perhaps have lost a bit of faith in the European project? How best can

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that enthusiasm be captured? If we look at the 20`year record of

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Sweden, and I had to do that the other day, looking at the figures

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and estimates we did at that time, have we delivered on those? We have

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had better economic development than we thought. We have had better

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development of Europe as a whole in terms of peace, stability and

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security than I thought at the time due to the single market and

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enlargement and other factors. For quite some time it was spectacularly

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good decades for Europe. We now face a more challenging situation, both

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in terms of the economic challenges and the rapidly changing global

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economy with new technologies and new actors and all those things. And

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a geopolitical situation that is truly demanding. Look at Russia,

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look at what is happening to our south. We clearly need to work

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together in a more coherent and clear way. However, in June you were

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quoted as saying in a speech that the main challenges in the last five

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years in the European Union have been economic ones. Looking ahead

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for the next five years it is political challenges in the East,

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fairly obviously, and also in the West, fairly obviously, is what you

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said. You see the challenges ahead being political ones, do you?

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Primarily. We have gone through a period of five`years where we have

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had financial challenges and debt and all that kind of thing. Looking

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ahead it is primarily political challenges. Really, 26 people out of

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work in the EU? We have set policies in motion that should be somewhat

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more effective, we shouldn't lose sight of that. We have Russia in the

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East using military power in a way that was unthinkable to most of us a

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couple of years ago. We have a Middle East that is about to blow up

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more or less if you look at Iraq these very days. We have uncertainty

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in the UK, where the UK is heading, that is also affecting the entire

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calculus. We have huge political challenges. It's interesting, as I

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said, 26 million unemployed across the EU, and you have some recovering

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in some cases, but it is weak and faltering, is what the ECB, the

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European Central Bank, is saying. And Marcel Fratzscher, President of

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the German Institute for Economic Research, says Europe is stuck in a

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deep slump and facing the prospect of many more years of stagnation and

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high unemployment, is what he said on July the 4th. Should you

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reconsider what you said about the fact the main challenges are

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political and not economic? Some of these challenges are political of

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nature. Jean`Claude Juncker, as you mention, likely to be the next

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Commission president, he said one of his priorities was to deepen the

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single market and go to the digital single market, that is clearly an

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area where we need to do more. We can generate more growth and more

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employment in European economies if we created a truly single market

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also for the new digital economy. We haven't done that. Whether that is

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economic or political, you can debate, but it needs to be done and

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it's on the agenda. You bring up Jean`Claude Juncker, likely to be

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the new Commission president. 18 years as Prime Minister of

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Luxembourg, very much an EU insider. Is he the right person to lead the

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European Commission at this time when you have these massive economic

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problems? Luxembourg has the highest standard of living in the whole EU.

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They have. Jean`Claude Juncker is an experienced politician, he has been

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around for quite some time. That could be considered a big asset but

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it could also be considered a disadvantage. The commission is an

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important institution and the president is an important

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personality but he is not the head of Europe. He is a top civil

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servant. They have the right of initiative. It is a key post. It is,

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but the key decisions can't be taken without the different governments

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being involved. The Council of Ministers. I hope he is. Sweden had

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some reservations. On the process, not on the personality. He is an

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experienced man but I would like to stress that it is a team job, very

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much it will be dependent on the other personalities around him. We

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need a leadership team for Europe that is looking to the future, that

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is connected with the different parts of Europe, that is

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representative of Europe and that can work together. It is not a one

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man show. Can you set the record straight? We heard reports that

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Sweden was a bit lukewarm about Jean`Claude Juncker. Your Prime

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Minister, Fredrik Reinfeldt, had that meeting at his residence

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outside Stockholm in June, Angela Merkel was there, Mark Rutte, the

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Dutch Prime Minister, and David Cameron, the British Prime Minister,

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who made his opposition to Jean`Claude Juncker extremely

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public. We all thought Sweden was not so keen on Juncker, was that the

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case? It was lukewarm on the process. Not the man? Not entirely

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enthusiastic about that. The second thing about that meeting was we were

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not too happy with the focus on personalities, we wanted a focus on

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the policies. The different personalities... The policies are

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set by the governments and by the institutions. We wanted a proper

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policy debate on which are the priorities of the EU as we look

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ahead. Out of that meeting between the Prime Minister of the UK, the

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Chancellor of Germany, the Prime Minister of the Netherlands and

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Sweden, came effectively the decision that was taken on the five

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strategic priorities for the EU over the coming five years. You might say

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it is a fluffy document, as these documents clearly are, but it does

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set the direction in policies. With due respect even to Jean`Claude

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Juncker more important than personalities. You're not saying

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what Frederik Reinfeldt said about Jean`Claude Juncker? I was not at

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that meeting. But you must have known. Clearly the priorities are

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the policies. On personalities, I would say the leadership team. We

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aren't there yet. We have taken... We are in the process of taking a

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decision on one of them, but there are a couple of other individuals in

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place for us to do that. You say there was a discussion of policy and

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essentially Britain does not want this ever closer union as set out in

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the Lisbon Treaty, and doesn't want to see more power ceded to Brussels

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and it wants to retain control on immigration, welfare, security and

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that kind of thing. And there is a battle, as it were, going on at the

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heart and soul of the European Union with Angela Merkel saying she would

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not countenance an unravelling of any treaties. And David Cameron

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saying he wants to see a revision of EU treaties to exclude Britain from

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the ever closer goal of closer union. Is there that battle, and if

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so, who do you think is going to win it? There is certainly a discussion

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and it is a necessary discussion. What's underway in the UK is a

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competencies review by the different parts of the different agencies of

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the UK government where they are looking pragmatically about whether

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it is a benefit or a disadvantage to the UK, the different competencies

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that are there on a European level. So far that competency review has

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resulted in a... While it is a net advantage to the UK, these

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competencies are on a UK level. The same review has been undertaken in

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the Netherlands with roughly the same result and we are looking at

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the same in Sweden. This is a discussion with must have all the

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time but we do end up with the conclusion that in the world in

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which we are living today, even the biggest of nations, France, Germany,

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the UK, we are too small on our own to tackle some of these issues, not

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all of them certainly, and we need to work together even more closely

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on certain areas. Just to clarify, what has been agreed? Your Prime

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Minister, Frederik Reinfeldt, said this ever closer union perception is

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maybe not the best for everyone. This has never been stated by the EU

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before, that is what emerged at the end of June. But David Cameron has

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made it quite clear writing in the Daily Telegraph at the end of June,

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if by fair deal we can agree we are not heading at different speeds to

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the same place then there is business we can do. Is it still this

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ultimate goal of ever closer union but you can decide at what speed

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you're going to get there? Not necessarily, we can define it in

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different ways. All of the leaders of the EU say closer union might not

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be for everyone, that is recognition of the fact there is different

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sentiment in Britain and that needs to be accounted for. Needless to

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say, we are a union composed of all other nations and we have to account

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for all of them and consider them. It is a slogan to a certain extent.

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This is the UK position as well, I happen to be a more pragmatic

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European, looking at the different issues and merits of the case. Is

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this an issue that is best decided on a European level, national level,

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or in Wales or Scotland or Catalonia or the regions of Sweden? That's an

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ongoing debate we must have on the proper balance of governance of the

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different European levels. Do you think David Cameron was

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humiliated by it? Did the chapter damage the reputation of the EU in

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public? I do not think so. We have the occurrence of these debates now.

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Then we move on. The difference is what we achieve in terms of policies

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and results. In foreign affairs, and as Foreign Minister of Sweden, you

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see the EU as having a clear role when we see events such as the

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situation in Ukraine. Russia destabilises and the European Union

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restabilises, you were one of the architects of the way to deal with

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the post`Soviet states on the EU doorstep. Do you think you are

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perhaps a bit too hawkish? No. I think it is extremely important that

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we stand on principle. What happened with Russia and Ukraine, it is

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something that was an affront to the very fundamental process of peace

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and security, not only in Europe, but globally. If you allow people to

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seize territory from another neighbour, that is an unacceptable

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and destabilising. We have not seen that since Saddam Hussein in Kuwait.

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It was the same thing. We did not accept it. What Vladimir Putin has

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done in the Crimea is exactly the same. But the history with this. You

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likened their actions to Nazi tactics before the Second World War.

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Is that helpful? We have seen that particular statement being repeated.

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Who has said it who has not been criticised? Do you accept that it is

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quite an extreme statement? I said, we have seen it before. We saw it

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during the Balkan war as well. One leader saying, I have the right to

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send my forces to protect my people. Is that kind of language helpful?

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History is sometimes helpful in order to show the dangers that are

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there. But when the Soviet Union played such a key role in the defeat

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of the Nazis, is it useful to bring in that analogy? The fact that

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Stalin was helpful in defeating Hitler was a good thing. That does

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not say that Stalin was a good person. But just likening the

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Russian actions in Georgia to Nazi tactics? It is good to look at

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history. We have seen it before, during the Balkan wars and the

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1930s. We saw Saddam Hussein in Kuwait. History is not necessarily

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connected to the future, but you need to be able to learn from

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history in order to confront the challenges of today. It is how you

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phrase matters. When the German Foreign Minister said, diplomacy

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does not mean weakness, but it is needed more than ever to prevent us

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from being drawn into the abyss of military escalation. I agree

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entirely. Diplomacy is necessary. But it must be based on the

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principles. We cannot accept aggression. We cannot accept that

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you invade the territories of others. We cannot accept people

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sending tanks across the borders. That is fundamentally incompatible

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with the principles of European security that we have been trying to

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uphold and defend and extend and whatever. If you allowed the Chinese

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to do with the Russians have done, it would be destabilising to Asia as

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well. The best way of arguably doing that is through NATO. Sweden is not

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a member of NATO. Why not join? It is a separate issue. Why not? Sweden

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and Finland are the only countries in that neighbourhood who aren't

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members. Why not join? That discussion has to be more lively in

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the next few years to come. One reason why Sweden is not a member of

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NATO, we took that decision in the late 40s, early 50s. You only need

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to look at a map to understand that. As the debate promises in Sweden and

:19:27.:19:30.

Finland, we will follow each other very closely. Sweden will not make a

:19:31.:19:33.

move without Finland. In the meantime, we have much closer

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cooperation with NATO. As you say, there is a debate. When the Finnish

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Prime Minister and his predecessor have publicly called for Finland to

:19:44.:19:46.

become a member of NATO, if Sweden also joined, you said that is not on

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the cards? The debate is on the cards. The Swedish Prime Minister

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said he wished it to be the case. Do you want to see Sweden in NATO? I

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think there would be advantages. There are a lot of other things we

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need to do to strengthen the security of Sweden and Finland.

:20:11.:20:24.

Absent membership of NATO. I do not think membership of NATO, even in

:20:25.:20:27.

the most ideal of conditions, will come shortly. Other things are

:20:28.:20:30.

needed. Some of it is strengthening the role of the European Union.

:20:31.:20:34.

Others involve strengthening corporation with NATO. But the

:20:35.:20:38.

cohesion of NATO, the European Union, and partnership with the

:20:39.:20:40.

United States, is absolutely fundamental. Are you worried about

:20:41.:20:56.

the co`operation of the US? We have seen the controversy over the

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National Security agency. I am worried about the political effects

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of that. I am less worried about the nature of the alliance. I can be

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somewhat worried at times when I hear the US politicions talk about

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the defence of the nation at home be a priority. We need a United States

:21:14.:21:19.

that is thoroughly engaged on the global stage. But you say that the

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alliance has been questioned. Some people have been saying, should we

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accept the US dollar as the international currency. And it is

:21:32.:21:42.

absurd that Europeans sell to one another in US dollars. That is

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US`EU alliance is not as solid as it US`EU alliance is not as solid as it

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might be. There are tensions. On the currency issue, the dollar is the

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global currency. I think the euro is going to be increasingly significant

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in years to come. It might well be that we will see a situation where

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foreign bodies that have nothing to do with this particular dispute, the

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euro will emerge as a more significant global currency. At the

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same time, the bonds are very strong. If you look at challenges,

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look at the Middle East and all the problems we have there. No European

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nation, not even Europe can do it. We have to deal with the Americans.

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Finally, there are elections in September. You're part of the

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centre`right government. You could be out of the job. Would you fancy

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the position of the EU foreign policy chief? I am not a candidate.

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I am not a candidate for anything except Sweden at the moment. I think

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you might be out of the job most likely in Sweden. That might

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certainly be the case. You never know. I am not a candidate for that

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position. That being said, I will stay engaged on the European scene.

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I think they are vitally important. If you were offered it, you would

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not take it? I do not think I would be offered it, because I am not a

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candidate. But I will stay engaged. Very quickly, is it because you are

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seen as very outspoken? One person said he would answer is getting the

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job asked them because you say what you think and that is not always

:23:50.:23:52.

wise and politics. Briefly, is that true? He is a very wise person. You

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will carry on speaking your mind? Yes I will. Carl Bildt, thank you

:23:58.:24:00.

for coming on HARDtalk. Yesterday, we had some pretty big

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temperature contrasts across the British Isles, where the sunshine

:24:27.:24:29.

put in an appearance temperatures reached 25. Underneath this cloud it

:24:30.:24:36.

was not just cool, it was also pretty

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