Dore Gold - Advisor to the Prime Minister of Israel HARDtalk

probably been destroyed. You are up`to`date. It is time for

HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. The kidnap and

murder of four teenagers, three Israeli and one Palestinian, has

triggered protests and violent clashes in Israel and the occupied

territories and unleashed the heaviest rocket fire between Israel

and Hamas for nearly two is. Israel blames Hamas for the kidnappings and

murders. Two days later, a 16`year`old Palestinian boy,

Mohammed Abu Khdair, was killed in Jerusalem. Jewish suspects have been

arrested for his murder. This latest crisis has exposed the abyss between

the two communities ` could it escalate into a wider conflict? My

guest today is Dore Gold, an adviser to Benjamin Netanyahu.

Dore Gold, welcome to HARDtalk. Could this current crisis escalate

into a wider conflict? Much of it depends on what Hamas decides. Hamas

in the last week or so has been escalating rocket fire into the

heart of Israel, not just the south of Israel. Nearly one is `` 1

million Israelis have been affected. We had 80 rockets pounding Israeli

territory. We will not tolerate this. A military spokesmen for

Israel says that Israel is preparing for the possibility of sending

ground forces into Gaza. We have a green light to recruit more reserve

troops. That will enable us to carry out ground missions. How likely is

that? I would not want to say, I would not want to second`guess

operation decisions of the Israeli army. All options are on the table.

The IDF has been commissioned to end this rocket fire on the civilians of

Israel. It will do what it takes to bring about a complete halt of this

rocket fire and the denial of the freedom of the people of Israel to

live normally. How far is Benjamin Netanyahu under pressure from the

hardliners of his government to take tougher action against Hamas? I have

known him for many years. He does not listen to here say. He does what

the country needs to be secure. The people of Israel deserve to have the

peace, to have the quiet, that any other country would insist upon. He

will sit with his national security establishment to decide what is

necessary to bring about that quiet. He would not tolerate this in London

or Paris or anywhere. I was asking you what pressure there was on him

to take tougher action. I am not talking about public opinion here.

The Foreign Minister has said he is ending his party's alliance with

Benjamin Netanyahu because of his refusal to be tougher on the Hamas.

He says differences have become substantial and fundamental. It is

not clear what we are waiting for. At the end of 2015, and mass will ``

Hamas will have hundreds of rockets. Those kinds of pressures are very

real. These comments by the Foreign Minister just illustrate the

restraint with which the Prime Minister has exercised over the last

couple of days. He is wanting a chance to resolve the crisis without

using full military force that Israel can use and can exercise. But

if all we get from Hamas is increasing escalation, more

rockets, then he will be left with no choice but to do what is

necessary to defend the population. A spokesperson for the Palestinian

National authority, not Hamas, says the occupational government's

decision to expand the war it is also a decision to destroy any

opportunity for peace and will plunge the region into a cycle of

bloody violence which will harm everyone. To what extent this is

well aware that it is in nobody's interest for this conflict to widen?

Again, if Hamas would stop launching rockets into Israeli civilian

territory, this would be resolved. We want to make sure that Hamas

cannot just decide next month to resume this. It is surprising that

the Palestinian authority spokesman refers to the Tory inside sovereign

Israel has occupied territory. `` territory. But it shows some of the

problems of this conflict. If you cannot accept the sovereignty of the

Jewish state, how are you going to come to a resolution over our final

boundaries? Let us look at what has triggered the crisis. The terrible

murder of these three is really teenagers and the subsequent murder

of a Palestinian. `` Israeli. The Israeli authorities said, this is

Hamas. What evidence do you have that it was Hamas behind the

abductions and killings? Much of this is internal intelligence from

the Israeli security establishment. Some of it has been made evident.

Two of the suspects are Hamas operatives. They have been trained

by Hamas. We are not just pulling anybody off the street. We have very

clear data that this was Hamas. Hamas has praised this. When that

Palestinian gunman was kidnapped and killed, it seems now by Jews who

committed that crime, that was condemned across our political

spectrum. `` Palestinian young man. But when the three Israeli teenagers

were kidnapped and ultimately killed, Hamas was praising this

operation. There is a difference between how we are approaching this.

Hamas's statements show that this was a Hamas move. You say your

intelligence is telling you that it was Hamas, although I have to say

that their official position, we were told `` Sky News was told that

they knew nothing of the killings and they are grossly spokesmen said

that they had no information. `` a Hamas spokesmen. These were said to

be low`level members of Hamas who belong to a rogue group and have a

history of acting independently. They are not mainstream members, are

they? That is an old trick in the terrorist world that has been used

for years. You might remember there was an attack because they did not

want to be held responsible for terrorist operations. When the

Israeli security establishment says it is Hamas, you should believe it

is Hamas. The security establishment has intimate intelligence ties with

many countries around the world. It does not assert conclusions that

have not been thoroughly checked out. Why not arrest and charge these

suspects and put them on trial? We have to get a hold of these

suspects. They are hiding out in the west Bank. If we had one corporation

from the Palestinian authority, we might be able to obtain

information. But we do not have them in custody. When we do, we will use

the full power of Israeli law to bring them to justice. What have you

been doing in the lead up to try and find then and arrested them? This is

part of what has to be done. You have to find these people. We

originally had the security operations to find the three

kidnapped boys. But unfortunately, that ended tragically when we

discovered their bodies. Israel will do what is necessary to bring these

people to justice. We will not allow these teenagers to be murdered and

the people who perpetrated this crime to go free. This is what you

have done, Dore Gold, in trying to apprehend the two suspects. I

mentioned, why not find them and put them on trial. This is what Israel

has done. You have arrested 539 Palestinians, doubling the number of

those detained without trial or charge. The houses of militants have

been blown up, causing significant damage to the larger buildings in

which they were located. 23,000 Palestinians were barred from

travelling to their jobs in Israel. Any person from one town was

prevented from travelling abroad. More than 20 Palestinians have been

killed, including three Palestinians under the age of 18. What would you

say to that? I cannot verify what you are quoting. Israeli military

actions are consistent with the requirements of international law.

Israel is under the supervision of our court system, including the

Supreme Court. Some people will put out all kinds of data. But it

happened. I do not saying that when the Israeli authorities are trying

to find these two suspects you are so sure were behind the abductions

and the killings that you did not carry out these kind of operations

that I just described? They have been reported in just about every

report you read about. You cited specific numbers. I said we could

not verify them. What are the facts you have? What I can say is the

Israeli army operates with the complete oversight of the Israeli

legal system. Whatever we are doing and whatever data you are being

given, it is something that has been checked in terms of what moves we

take on the ground and it is a vehicle operation. It is necessary,

first, to find those civilians, to find those teenagers, that was our

motivation. Now it is necessary to bring the people who engage in that

activity to justice. I say to you that the houses of militants were

blown up and you know that this is a policy that has been criticised by

an Israeli rights group Centre. They say this policy of demolishing homes

is not the correct one. A person must not be punished for the acts of

others. The chief victims of the occupants of the demolished

there are Israeli NGOs that look at issues of human rights and publish

reports, but ultimately, the highest authority in this regard is the

Supreme Court. Counterinsurgency war is not a pretty picture. I was not

putting that to you. I was not talking about counterinsurgency.

Amnesty International says the Israeli authorities must conduct a

full, thorough and impartial investigation that leads to the full

prosecution of those responsible in fair trials. You said that was what

you were trying to do and then I gave you the examples of the

responses of the Israeli authorities which have been judged

disproportionate stop Israel has its advocates and Israel has people who

want to criticise it and make a whole industry about criticising it.

What I'm saying is that we have state institutions that are

respected around the world and those state institutions are supervising

us. In the meantime, we are beyond this. We are dealing with a

full`scale attack on the state of Israel in which 1 million Israelis

are forced into shelters and listen to sirens going off and are facing

rocket attacks. By the way, a Hamas rocket attack against an Israeli

city is a war crime. It is a crime against humanity. I don't hear

people saying that we should indict the leaders of Hamas for what they

are doing. We will put that to the leaders of Hamas when we speak to

them. When you say that Hamas did not condemn the killing of the three

Israelis, Hamas are not all Palestinians, are they? President

Mahmoud Abbas did condemn the killings of the three Israelis. He

condemned what was happening when they disappeared. He co`ordinated a

force to find the missing teenagers. Unfortunately and tragically,

Mahmoud Abbas decided that Hamas would be his medical partner and

created a reconciliation agreement signed by X Factor and Hamas.

Therefore, `` signed by Fatah and Hamas. Therefore, half of the

Palestinian political establishment supported the kidnapping and murder

of three Israelis. On the Israeli side, the entire Israeli political

spectrum has condemned the murder of the Palestinian teenager. This is no

way to build any peace between us, if indeed, we make a partnership

with an international terrorist organisation like Hamas which has

been designated not just by us but by the EU, the US Canada and others.

I will come to the unity government and the role of Hamas in a moment.

But the hatred is not only on the Palestinian side, is it? It is also

on the Israeli side. One of the full and it facts and side`effects of war

is the rage of people when they see their civilians being killed. Let's

remember one thing. If you look at the textbooks of Hamas or the

Palestinian Authority, young people are taught jihad. They are taught

armed resistance. And they are taught to hate the Jewish people.

That is something that should have been changed years ago in the Oslo

accords in 1993 but was not and therefore, whole generations of

grown`up to hate Israelis no matter what we do. You accept, then, that

there is hatred on the Israeli side as well? Well, I think when Israelis

see three innocent teenagers slaughtered, they are also enraged.

But the Israeli establishment, the Israeli educational system, does not

promote hatred of the Arabs. To the contrary, it promotes peace. We saw

the Facebook page entitled the people of Israel demand revengeful

and it attracted 35,000 fans would civilians and soldiers posting

pictures of themselves holding signs calling for revenge. We have heard

of Israelis running amok in Jerusalem's main squares, some

chanting death to Arabs, Palestinians pulled from a tram that

connects Arab suburbs to the city centre, Arabs attacked in shock and

restaurants. You know what? You have extremist elements in every society.

Go to a football match in most European cities and you will see

them there. But what is going on here in Israel is a national

government that is trying to promote peace and is condemning acts against

innocent people, like the act that occurred last week. Unfortunately,

the national position of the Hamas leadership is one that calls for

killing Jews. Read the Hamas charter. That is not on our side,

that is on their side. Again, you are painting all Palestinians as

representing that kind of you and I put it to you that President of

Mahmoud Abbas and did condemn the killings. He said he was

co`ordinating with Israel. I have said nothing of Mahmoud Abbas. Sure,

but you are painting all Palestinians as Hamas and I say that

is a sweeping statement. The father of Mohammed Abu Khdair, the boy who

was killed, told the New York Times on the 2nd of July, I'm against the

kidnapping and the killings. Whether due or Arab, who can accept the

kidnapping and killing of his son or daughter. I call on both sides to

stop the bloodshed. I'm giving you an example of Palestinians

conforming to the kind of values that you say is what the Israelis

are attached to. What I'm trying to say is that I did not say all

Palestinians have that position. What I did say is that Hamas as a

national leadership of part of the Palestinian people has been

promoting hate and violence. Open up a Hamas textbooks. Go to a Hamas

website. Look at what religious leaders are saying. One of the

highest religious leaders in Gaza called for a new Holocaust against

the Jews. That is what they do as part of a national institution.

There are Palestinian to call against the murder of Jews and we

are pleased when those cases come up. On our side as well, we have had

the mothers of the victims of the three boys, particularly Rachel

Frenkel, coming out and condemning attacks against destinies. The main

point is this. We are basically still trying to resolve the

mysteries of those murders that occurred but we are also facing a

massive assault from Hamas on the state of Israel and we have to bring

this war to an end and we have to bring stability and peace. That can

only be done if hatred is fought and if hatred is prevented, which is not

what is occurring on the Palestinian side. What can you do now? There is

a government of national unity, a technocrat government backed by both

Mahmoud Abbas and Hamas. The US and EU say they will give this

technocratic government a chance, they will see what transpires. The

US is providing aid. Don't you have to work with what the international

community says is acceptable? Otherwise you will find yourself

isolated. Sometimes you have to do the right thing and if parts of the

international community have accepted or acquiesced to Mahmoud

Abbas's embrace of Hamas, that is unfortunate. That is a big mistake.

You can understand their assumption. They thought if Hamas embraced

Mahmoud Abbas, maybe Hamas would become more moderate. Maybe it would

stop its insistence on armed resistance, which is so central to

its political thinking, but the opposite occurred. Hamas actually

began with rocket fire in a systematic way against Israeli

cities and now it has massively escalated that rocket fire so that

in one evening, you can have a two rockets falling on Israel. That is

not moderation, that is war. Looking at the bigger picture, the US top

envoy on this conflict until the 30th of June is now reported as

saying that when it comes to the blame game, he blames the

Palestinians than the Israelis are 50`50. You are not absolved of blame

for the failure to make any progress on the peace process. I have known

him for many years and he reflects a certain US position that wants to

keep the peace process going in the future, so you blame both sides. But

I was there. I was involved with this process and I saw the efforts

of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to make this process work.

Unfortunately, when Mahmoud Abbas sat in March with President Obama

and President Obama asked if he would support this framework that we

have worked out, Mahmoud Abbas said we would get back to you. That is

not what this envoy says. You say you know what he said. But March in

this year, he said Newman Netanyahu effectively checked out from the

talks and stopped responding to proposals on the Obama

administration. Well... There was an open dialogue between the US and

Israel. We hope we have that open dialogue in the future.

Unfortunately, for his own reasons, maybe political constraint, Mahmoud

Abbas did not agree to the parameters proposed by the US for a

framework and as a result, the situation just deteriorated. And we

are in a position, the position we are in today, with the Palestinian

leadership. But worst of all, Mahmoud Abbas embraced Hamas, which

he knows is a terrorist group. Hamas has killed more Fatah people. Hamas

does not even want a Palestinian state. You know what they want? They

want a caliphate! Mahmoud Abbas says this new technocratic government

stands by all prior diplomatic agreement including the recognition

of Israel. Finally, John Kerry says the absence of peace is perpetual

conflict. You don't want perpetual conflict in Israel, do you? We are

determined to reach peace with our neighbours. In the past, we made

peace with Egypt. We gave up over 90% of the territory we captured in

the six`day war. We made peace with Jordan and both of those treaties

have been tested but we have succeeded. We would love to make

peace with the Palestinians but it takes two to tango and

unfortunately, Mahmoud Abbas has failed to bring peace for his side.

Maybe they have to go back to the drawing board and find a different

approach. But I will tell you this, the people of Israel are united in

seeking peace with their neighbours. Thank you for coming onto Hartog. ``

had HARDtalk. It looks like we will at least get one day