Osama Hamdan - Hamas Spokesman for International Relations HARDtalk

but withdrew after a second crash. Now on BBC News, HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk. Violence and death have once again returned with

a vengeance to Israel and the Occupied Territories. Hamas's

stronghold in Gaza is facing a barrage of air strikes by Israeli

forces and Israel is subject to hundreds of rockets launched from

inside the territory. How far has the current outbreak of hostilities

set back efforts at reconciliation between rival Palestinian factions

Hamas and Fatah? HARDtalk speaks to Osama Hamdan, spokesman for Hamas.

Is the group now finding itself not only under military attack, but also

increasingly isolated domestically and internationally?

Osama Hamdan, welcome to HARDtalk. Why don't Palestinians in Gaza stop

firing rockets into Israel? Well, the question I believe is supposed

to be why the Israelis won't stop the attack against Palestinians? For

the last almost four weeks, they have launched a collective

punishment campaign against the Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza

and we started to launch rockets and bombs inside Gaza a few days ago.

The normal action was for the Palestinian people to go to the

political waves through their leadership but it didn't work and so

there was a reaction by the resistance which is happening again.

The action against Israeli attacks is a retaliations. They say that you

started firing rockets into Israel. Everyone knows that Hamas was

committed to the ceasefire in 2012 and the Israelis themselves said

that several times. This time, they started the attack and we can go

back to the facts and everyone will know that. Because of this, I

believe, the Americans have said that both sides have to control

themselves and for the first time, eight have not claimed that Hamas is

responsible `` Abate. They know who started it. If you look at what

international reaction has been, the European Union ambassador to Israel

says that indiscriminate shooting of rockets against civilians can never

be a legitimate response, no matter what your grievance is. He is saying

that about the Palestinians. He was supposed to say that about the

Israelis because, in the last few weeks, more than 600 Palestinians

were arrested and all of them were civilians. 15 members of the

Palestinian resistance Council and parliamentarians including the

speaker of the Parliament were arrested by Israelis and he did not

say anything about those civilians. Most people killed in Gaza and the

last few days were civilians, more than 400 Palestinians were injured

and most of them were civilians. I want to take those words. He is

supposed to criticize the Israeli attacks against the Palestinians and

instead is talking about the Palestinian side only. If he was

mentioning the Palestinians, maybe he was talking about the Israelis

more so than that. As you say, there have been deaths among the

Palestinians, dozens killed including women and children.

Hundreds injured, do you want those deaths to stop? Indeed, we are doing

our best to stop it. So why don't you support a ceasefire then if you

don't want any more killings amongst the Palestinians? The one who broke

the ceasefire was the Israeli side, not Hamas, what we are doing is

reacting against the action of the Israelis. I believe the efforts must

be against the Israelis, have to stop their attack and the

Palestinians will not attack. If they continue and feel that it is a

good chance to kill the Palestinians after they have sabotaged the peace

process, everyone knows the one who destroyed the peace process is

Benjamin Netanyahu. He wanted to get rid of the Palestinians. Sorry to

interrupt you, let's stick with the current hostilities. I asked if he

would support a ceasefire. President Mahmoud Abbas says that everyone he

has talked to has expressed a willingness to restore the truce

with Israel and stop the escalation. Do you agree that there should be a

ceasefire in Hamas? When there was a clear position from Hamas, in the

political level and the spokesman, we have said clearly that Israel

must stop the attacks on Gaza and stop the assault against our people

in the West Bank and released our people who were arrested in the last

few weeks. If that happens, the ceasefire will return. OK, you have

that those conditions. You have just said, these are the conditions under

which we, in Hamas, this is what we want from the Israelis in order to

get a ceasefire. Who is Hamas to be making this demand? Aren't you under

the unity government of President Mahmud Abbas? This is a good

question because what we have set is not conditions. Those were

conditions for the ceasefire of 2012 and the Israelis have broken it. If

they want to go back to the ceasefire, they have to respect it.

They cannot invade the Palestinian lands any time they want and then

the Palestinians just have to accept what they have done. The Israelis

have to respect the ceasefire agreement which was endorsed in 2012

I've both sides. When President Mahmoud Abbas talks about that, he's

talking about the same issue. There was no difference between the

Palestinian position on the political level or the resistance

level and I have to say clearly, we have talked over the last few days

several times with President Zuma would Abbas and they have agreed on

what they will do on the political level. There is no problem inside

the Palestinian situation and I think the problem is between the

Palestinians and Israelis. You mentioned the political leader of

Hamas. Who is conducting the military operations in Gaza at the

moment? There is leadership for the military wing of Hamas and they are

working as they were supposed to do protecting their people. Reacting

against the Israeli occupation and attack and everyone knows that the

militant wing of Hamas endorses any kind of ceasefire which may be

accepted by the political wing. That has happened several times but there

was no place for such a question. I was just asking if the armed wing of

Hamas is in charge? Since Hamas agreed with Fatah which is led by

President Mahmoud Abbas, shouldn't he be in charge of everything that

the Palestinians do? You have the name wrong. I beg your pardon. What

is happening inside the Palestinian internal politics is an issue for

the Palestinian people and politicians to deal with. We don't

accept any interference in our internal issues as Palestinians.

What is supposed to be done is to stop the Israeli attack against the

Palestinians and not to ask the Palestinians how they are dealing

with their internal issues. Everyone knows that the Palestinians

respected all their commitments and the resistance was respected. The

one who broke the ceasefire was Israel. It were not thinking about

the respect of the Palestinian people, they were thinking about how

to take more and more of their rights or settlements and killing

people and putting them under siege and destroying all the chances for

peace. Let me ask you this. The Hamas deputy political chief said

earlier this week that he hoped the conflict in Gaza would inspire West

Bank people to launch a third intifada. Do you agree with that?

Everyone knows that Israeli aggressions against Palestinian

aggressions will generate reaction. What happened in the West Bank in

the last few weeks shows that the Israelis are not respecting the

Palestinians as humans. A nation has rights to be independent. It is a

normal reaction from the Palestinians. What is happening in

Jerusalem and Hebron and West Bank and gather the... It is a normal

reaction for any nation under occupation. But you know what the

Israelis say? The advisor to the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin

Netanyahu said that, is all we get is increasing escalation from

Hamas, then the Prime Minister will be left with no choice but to do

what is necessary to defend the Israeli population. That is how they

see it. Who destroyed the peace process with Mac who started the

occupation of the West Bank in the last few weeks ``? Who claimed that

free settlers were disappeared and kidnapped Reid it is Benjamin

Netanyahu. He is trying to sell a corrupt story. ``? You are saying

that those three Jewish teenagers who were kidnapped and killed, with

Israel blaming Hamas, you are saying it was nothing to do with it at

all? We have said that clearly. We have no information about what

happened. All the information came from the Israelis and they after

day, it became more clear that Benjamin Netanyahu had a fabricated

story to legitimize his attack against the Palestinians and to

legitimize his pressure against the Palestinian government and also, to

cover himself after the United States endorsed the peace process.

This is what is happening in fact. When one of the advisers is saying

that, he is helping because he advises him. In order to protect

yourself, you have to do this and that against the Palestinians, he is

saying and they thought it would be a very simple thing to be done and

they were shocked by the reaction of the Palestinian people in Gaza and

the West Bank. For the first time, they were forced to say that they

were sorry for what happened here or there.

Nobody would countenance the idea that these revenge attacks were

Israeli tree operations, and Israel have said that operatives were not

behind the killing. I have a problem with that. No one in Palestine

believes that Israelis are seeking to have peace while they are

destroying the peace. No one in Palestine buys that age and

Netanyahu is looking forward to having peace with Palestinians while

bombing their houses, killing families, and women. Nobody buys the

Israeli story in Palestine, when they build more settlements, that

they are willing to have a Palestinian state. In fact, this is

an occupation. This is the real story. There is an occupation. Just

sticking with those killings... You made those points, but just sticking

with the three Israeli teenagers who were killed, when the news of that

came, Hamas's political leader told al`Jazeera television, placid beaver

hands that captured them. And this is what the Israelis said, the

Israelis celebrate the death while they mourn the death of innocent

young people. He says that is the difference between the societies. ``

blessed be the hands. The real story is that there is an occupation. And

this occupation, according to international law, the international

resolutions, they have to leave the Palestinian lands. The settlers,

according to the Geneva accords, are occupiers. Two of those three were

soldiers in the Israeli army. We are talking here about soldiers,

although they are 19 years old, but they are still soldiers. Who knows

how much Palestinians were killed at their hands. But you're not

answering my specific point? Excuse me. The specific point, that we are

not willing to kill anyone. We are willing to have our rights back. If

that happened peacefully, if Israel decided to withdraw now, well, it's

OK. They have to do that at the end. If they decide to do it peacefully,

we would be happy with that. If they don't, we would resist for that.

Because I want to remind you and everyone, it is not only the

Israelis who are being killed. We are talking over three or four days

about dozens of Palestinians who were killed. Of course, we mentioned

that, and also, when the young Palestinian was a ducted, can I just

say, when the young Palestinian was kidnapped and killed, the Israeli

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said it was a despicable act. He

expressed his outrage, he said that the full weight of the law will be

brought to bear upon anybody who was found guilty of the killing of this

boy. Can I move on to say that... This is Israeli law, and I assure

you, that after a few weeks you will find that this Israeli law, or

justice as you might like to save, he will release those six Israelis,

and maybe they will become heroes. I want to remind you of the man who

committed the Hebron massacre. They build a statue for him, and he

became a hero for the Israelis. All political leaders, including Simon

Peres himself. The current crisis has not only brought what we are

seeing now, the violence which is escalating, but has scuttled the

lead deal be between Hamas and the unity government. Does harm Hamas

still support the unity government? Hamas still support the unity

government, and will continue to support the unity government. When

we approached the agreement for reconciliation, we were clear that

we supported reconciliation, and all the steps which would follow on,

including the formation of the government, and we had formed the

government. And the upcoming elections, within the coming few

months. And the reform, which we will do with Fatah and Mahmood Abbas

together. You mentioned Mahmood Abbas, he said the government of

national unity would be under his command and policy. I recognise

Israel, and it would recognise it. I reject terrorism. Do you stand by

what Mahmood Abbas has said that? Well, Yasser Arafat in 1998 was the

president of the Palestinians and the head of the PLO, he recognised

Israel. That doesn't make sense. They don't recognise the Palestinian

rights. They don't recognise the Palestinians even as a nation. So

when Mahmood Abbas said that on the political level, we believe that the

Israelis would not do anything positive towards that. However, we

have said more than that. We are supporting all the effort which made

be done in order to have the Palestinian rights back. And that

was agreed upon by all the Palestinian factions in 2006, in the

Palestinian national document, which was named the prisoners' document.

So there is no question, whether Hamas is supporting the political

stance, when it came to the Palestinian rights. What we have to

say, every time, if Mahmood Abbas did the right thing for Palestinian

rights, we will support and stand by his side. Can I ask you, do you

believe that Palestinian aspirations for statehood are better achieved

through political or military means? I believe it will be achieved by all

the Palestinians. These political efforts, we are ready to do this,

when it needs military action, we are also ready to do that. We prefer

if it can be a soft way, if it can be by force against Israel, with the

United Nations and the international community to withdraw from our

occupied lands, including Jerusalem, but if the Israelis insist not to do

that, I believe not only Hamas, all the Palestinians, including Fatah,

will resist. You have said you would still like the option of using

military, violent means, which Hamas, and as you say, your armed

wing, are engaged in now. But this is what Benjamin Netanyahu, the

Israeli Prime Minister, has said about Hamas. He said like the

Islamist movements which you see in Syria, Iraq and elsewhere in the

Middle East, Hamas is committed to a savagery which not only includes the

demise of the state of Israel, but actually the establishment of those

Islamist realms of unforgiving, Ryland realms `` violent realms. If

you use violent means, you will allow the Israelis to depict you as

part of a violent global jihad is movement, obscuring the fact that

the Palestinians have legitimate aspirations for nationhood. Well,

you mean that we have to give our next and throats to Netanyahu to

slaughter it in order to show the world that we are ready to be

peaceful species, are you meaning that? Well, I was putting it to you

that you are allowing yourselves by using violent means to be depicted

in that way. No, no. I am asking you. Are you meaning that the

Palestinians have to give up their necks and throats for the Israelis

to slaughter it like what had happened. To say that we are very

innocent and peaceful species? I am saying what every... I am saying

what your president has said, which is to reject violence and terrorism.

I am saying what every human is saying or can say. What also the

international accords have said. If any nation under occupation, this

nation has the right to resist the occupation. We are resisting the

occupation. And instead of criticising our resistance, we

believe the international community, the free world, has to bring

pressure on Israelis to withdraw from our occupied territories. From

our occupied land. This will help the aspirations of the Palestinians,

not by supporting the Israelis with weapons, by sending hundreds of jets

for the Israelis, by giving the Israelis the new products of the

American military factories, to kill the Palestinians. To kill women and

children. A final question for you. Hamas is looking quite isolated,

they have lost the support of them Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, the

tunnels that you use for smuggling on the border between Gaza and Egypt

have been closed, cutting off any source of finance for you, or a

principal source of finance. You have to work under president Mahmood

Abbas, it is the only game in town now for Hamas, domestically and also

internationally. Well, this is the evaluation of some parties, but I

want to say, it is the wrong evaluation. We knew more difficult

and worst days before. We are not in our bad situation. I assure you. If

we weren't sure, Howell could we explain what had happened in the

last few days by the Palestinian militant against Israel. The

relationship with Mahmood Abbas is not a game. We believe that the

unity of the Palestinians is one of the fundamental and important

weapons to face the Israeli occupation and aggressions. In

Beirut, thank you very much indeed for coming on HARDtalk.

Good morning. It was initially windy for eastern areas yesterday. It

would be quite as windy today. But with cloud coming in from the east

and