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Welcome to HARDTalk. I am Stephen Sackur. | :00:09. | :00:15. | |
Today I am in the heart of the English countryside. Habitat which | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
is rich in wildlife, but for how much longer? The impact of human | :00:21. | :00:27. | |
beings here, as in so much of the world, is putting enormous pressure | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
on natural ecosystems. My guest today is Chris Packham, one of | :00:32. | :00:33. | |
Britain's best`known naturalist and campaigners for wildlife protection. | :00:34. | :00:42. | |
Is it time to radically rethink man's relationship with the natural | :00:43. | :00:44. | |
world? This is a beautiful place to say | :00:45. | :01:19. | |
welcome to HARDTalk. Thank you. This is where I feel most comfortable. | :01:20. | :01:28. | |
That is why I wanted to start here. It is in classic southern English | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
woodland where you find your passion for wildlife. Yes, I was fortunate | :01:32. | :01:39. | |
in that I lived in an age where parents allowed their kids to go | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
freely in the woods. I used to come home, dump my school bag and be in | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
this sort of environment. It was here that passion for wildlife was | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
ignited by some of the creatures I shared my space with. I find beauty | :01:53. | :01:59. | |
in individual species. And individual creatures? One of the | :02:00. | :02:09. | |
things you have spoken of as a defining moment was when you found a | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
very small kestrel, and you adopted it and took it home. You wanted to | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
raise it yourself. But, in a way, that is a problematic story because | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
you were trying to possess something which was truly wild. Looking back | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
on it, do you think that instinct was wrong? No, not as a child, but | :02:26. | :02:39. | |
it is not something I would do now. That relationship was at 14, at the | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
point where, I think, that was leaving me. The relationship was | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
intense, and it sealed a deep`rooted passion for, not only birds, but | :02:49. | :02:51. | |
life. The kestrel died, I lost it. It was heartbreaking to say the | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
least. Was it one of the most emotionally engaging moments of your | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
life? It shaped my whole life. That was a defining moment. Not only the | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
animal itself, but the social interactions that formed around me | :03:08. | :03:18. | |
having it. It was a transitional point. Subsequent to that, I have | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
not had that desire to hold things close to me. That is part of | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
maturing as a naturalist. Then I got binoculars and could satisfy my | :03:27. | :03:28. | |
curiosity by watching things, rather than by having to touch them. I | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
struggle with that emotional outlook that other people have. I am a | :03:34. | :03:50. | |
pragmatist and a scientist. As a consequence, I am dispassionate | :03:51. | :03:59. | |
about what I see. If I see predation happening, I do not feel the need to | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
intervene. I do not stop an animal killing another. That process is | :04:04. | :04:05. | |
part of the greater beauty. The beauty is not in the animal, it is | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
in this, the system that is functional and sustainable and | :04:10. | :04:11. | |
dynamic, and only exists because of those harmonious relationships and | :04:12. | :04:14. | |
interactions of the species. This is the greater beauty. It is not the | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
buzzard, it is not a rabid, the damsel fly `` Rabbit. It is the | :04:21. | :04:35. | |
ecology. I want to talk more about sustainability and the | :04:36. | :04:37. | |
responsibilities you see that sit with us. | :04:38. | :04:39. | |
Let us talk more about homosapiens' relations with the animal kingdom. | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
We are member of the animal kingdom, it is not a separate thing. A good | :04:43. | :04:49. | |
point. We are one of the great apes. You have made a very strong | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
stand against different forms of hunting, and yet hunting is one of | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
the most basic ways in which human beings have always related to other | :04:59. | :05:10. | |
animals. Why are you so against it? I am against it if it is | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
unsustainable. That is my point. I am not against hunting, shooting and | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
fishing, if it is sustainable. That is where the conflict arises. As our | :05:20. | :05:30. | |
own population has grown, and our desire to continue to hunt, in many | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
it is no longer sustainable. `` in many aspects. I struggle a little | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
with people who want to kill things for pleasure. I see a degree of | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
psychopathy in that. You are shifting the ground. Fox`hunting, | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
politically, for many years has been controversial. Now there are laws | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
outlawing it. There is some debate in the current government about | :05:57. | :05:59. | |
whether these laws should be reviewed. But nobody argues that | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
fox`hunting led to the fox becoming endangered or close to extinction. | :06:05. | :06:12. | |
It was all about pleasure. You began by saying if an animal wasn't | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
threatened, you were not against it. I presumed you meant hunting for | :06:18. | :06:25. | |
food, to eat it. Fox`hunting, while described as the unspeakable in | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
pursuit of the inedible, that is a very good description. Killing for | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
pleasure will always trouble me. I don't understand it. I have no | :06:34. | :06:45. | |
problem with them shooting pheasants which are reared for that purpose, | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
but when they shoot woodcock, which is in decline in the UK, but it | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
continues to be shot because it is classed as a game bird, I see an | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
issue there. Many species plummeting in number are protected, but this | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
one seems to be exonerated because for many hundreds of years it has | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
been shot. I would argue that those years are redundant. This is the | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
pertinent point where we are controlling that environment. If | :07:08. | :07:09. | |
there are no longer enough woodcock to shoot, we have to desist. But | :07:10. | :07:20. | |
this gets to the point of your critics seeing you much more | :07:21. | :07:22. | |
preoccupied with the rights of animals than the rights and | :07:23. | :07:36. | |
well`being of humans. For example, the argument of those who support | :07:37. | :07:38. | |
fox`hunting and grouse shooting and other forms of sport hunting is that | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
those activities and the economic benefits they bring to local | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
communities in rural areas are the absolute foundation of countryside | :07:45. | :07:55. | |
communities. You threaten livelihoods in rural areas. I am a | :07:56. | :08:02. | |
firm supporter of the need for us to live in a sustainable landscape, | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
with a secure economic future for those who live there, including the | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
shooting fraternity. As a consequence, I have nothing against | :08:11. | :08:12. | |
responsible shooting which is sustainable. In grouse moors, you | :08:13. | :08:29. | |
have begun a campaign against the shooting of the small bird, the | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
grouse, in the uplands of North Yorkshire and Scotland. But it has | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
been said that if you get your way, local communities will die. Grouse | :08:36. | :08:47. | |
shooting as a type of shooting can be disastrous for the environment. | :08:48. | :08:58. | |
They are kept at abnormally high numbers, which drove it to prosper. | :08:59. | :09:09. | |
It has a negative aspect in terms of other species of birds, and the | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
people who perpetrate it are intolerant of predators. One of the | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
reasons we have only a handful of certain raptor species, notably hen | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
harriers and golden eagle, is that they are persecuted by these people. | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
Illegally and ruthlessly. If they were to sort that problem out, we | :09:25. | :09:27. | |
would not be gunning for them. How far are you prepared to push these | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
campaigns? This year you spent weeks in Malta, determined to try to stop | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
the thousands of hunters who go there to shoot quail and | :09:35. | :09:45. | |
turtledoves. It is a tradition they have had for many years. You got | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
into a pretty serious confrontation with local hunters. At one point you | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
said, if they shoot me, I don't care. How far are you prepared to | :09:53. | :09:59. | |
push this? I pick my fights because I think I am right, not because I | :10:00. | :10:07. | |
think I can win. I am not a bully, and I am not a coward. I think I am | :10:08. | :10:17. | |
right to oppose these shootings. Those birds are not Maltese, or | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
British, but 17 species of British birds, including the turtledove | :10:21. | :10:23. | |
which has declined 90% since the 1970s, are still being shot on | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
Malta, and I do not see that as being sustainable. However long it | :10:27. | :10:38. | |
has been going on. But sometimes, the way you handle your campaigns, | :10:39. | :10:40. | |
actually entrenches the enmity of the hunting community. You arguably | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
make them more determined than ever to confront you and continue the | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
practice. That is an unfortunate human response, the resistance to | :10:47. | :10:54. | |
change. Unfortunately, we are all resistant, sometimes, to change. But | :10:55. | :11:01. | |
we have to raise the debate and continue to create dialogue which | :11:02. | :11:13. | |
allows us to make positive change. The problem with Malta is that in | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
the past, when there were fewer people there, and a greater number | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
of birds migrating, the practices they were partaking in, for food, | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
were fine. But the population of these birds has been declining | :11:24. | :11:26. | |
across Europe, and the hunters in Malta has increased. There were 80 | :11:27. | :11:38. | |
per square kilometre shooting, that is the highest density of anywhere | :11:39. | :11:47. | |
on earth. It is not tenable any more, and it is illegal all over | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
Europe, so why are Malta allowed to get away with it when we have seen | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
that it is the wrong thing to do? Here is one thing that puzzles me | :11:56. | :12:06. | |
about some of your campaigns. On Malta, you were very concerned about | :12:07. | :12:09. | |
the turtledove population, which matters to you, and yet you have | :12:10. | :12:12. | |
another side of your message to the world, which says we have got to | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
stop being so obsessed with the saving of single species, single | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
kinds of creature, we have to understand that the best thing we | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
can do and where we must invest most of our effort is on the big picture | :12:23. | :12:25. | |
stuff, saving the most valuable ecosystems in the world, whether it | :12:26. | :12:28. | |
is the Amazon Rainforest or the Kalahari desert, whatever. Which is | :12:29. | :12:31. | |
more important to you? Saving single species or having a much broader | :12:32. | :12:33. | |
view of what wildlife protection should be about? | :12:34. | :12:50. | |
broader view. Sometimes we choose individual species as flagships and | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
generate icons so we can motivate people's passions. | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
What about the panda? Yes. The panda is a bit of a legacy | :12:59. | :13:05. | |
from the past. When conservation got going in the 1970s, we had | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
campaigns, and it was about those individual species. Save the whale, | :13:09. | :13:15. | |
the tiger, the panda. We have now changed our tune behind the scenes. | :13:16. | :13:25. | |
We might wave the flag for those species but we are thinking about | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
the broader environment we can look after, once we have motivated | :13:29. | :13:30. | |
people. You do not fly the flag for the | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
panda. You say it has gone down an evolutionary cul`de`sac. You have | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
said, we should let them go and let them become extinct. | :13:41. | :13:50. | |
Yes, I will continue to pick on the panda because it's an easy target | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
for me in the hope that people will conduct an audit within the spending | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
of conservation, that is why I chose that animal. I feel a | :13:58. | :13:59. | |
disproportionate amount of money, time and effort is wasted upon the | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
panda. We have to accept that extinction, under extreme pressure | :14:03. | :14:05. | |
generated by humans, is part and parcel of humans. It's not always a | :14:06. | :14:16. | |
bad thing. I have nothing against pandas, I would like to keep the | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
panda, but I am asking whether we can afford to keep the panda at the | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
expense of the bigger picture you mentioned. And I would argue that by | :14:24. | :14:38. | |
raising that debate, it was a creative process. We have managed to | :14:39. | :14:41. | |
get people to think carefully about spending the small pots of money | :14:42. | :14:52. | |
that conservation has. The panda is in really deep trouble. | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
But we also know that tigers are in trouble. Rhinos are in trouble. Are | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
we to say to all of these wonderful creatures that their time on this | :15:03. | :15:04. | |
planet is up? No, it is a case`by`case basis. | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
There is still available habitat for rhino. There is still available | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
habitat for tigers. There is not habitat for pandas in China. They | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
are slow to reproduce, the populations are fragmented, we | :15:17. | :15:18. | |
cannot get them to breed or reintroduce them into the wild. | :15:19. | :15:26. | |
It raises a point about zoos. So many of the world's top zoos are | :15:27. | :15:28. | |
somewhat obsessed with breeding pandas, partly because it brings | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
in... It is not partly, it is wholly, it | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
brings in a huge footfall and allows them to profit from that. | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
Are you saying that breeding pandas is something that zoos and those who | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
care about the natural world should stop doing? China is the only | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
country to have bred pandas naturally. Every other country has | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
used artificial insemination because they can't generate conditions where | :15:58. | :16:00. | |
the pandas are happy enough to breed. The reason they persist with | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
this is because pandas are a fabulous draw for people. The reason | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
they need to breed them is simple. After a couple of years, the | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
footfall falls off. They are the most expensive animal on earth to | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
keep in captivity. It costs five times more to keep a panda than an | :16:20. | :16:28. | |
elephant. That's the second most expensive. If people do not flock to | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
see a cute little panda cub, that zoo is out of pocket. Drastically. | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
Remember, they are paying the Chinese government many millions of | :16:40. | :16:49. | |
pounds to rent those pandas. The zoos in the West have no choice but | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
to try and breed them. It is an economic issue. Stephen, it is not a | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
conservation issue. If a zoo in the West gets a panda, it will never go | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
back into the wild. No panda had ever been successfully put back into | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
the wilds of China, not least one that has been born in other parts of | :17:07. | :17:14. | |
the world. That may apply to other species as | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
well. I am just wondering that, as you talk about zoos with cynicism, | :17:20. | :17:22. | |
whether you see there is any point at all? | :17:23. | :17:24. | |
There is a tremendous point to zoos. Those pandas in the zoos are | :17:25. | :17:27. | |
phenomenal ambassadors for endangered wildlife. | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
Is that what zoos are, then? A performing piece of diplomacy on | :17:33. | :17:34. | |
behalf of the natural world, which of course they do not represent in | :17:35. | :17:37. | |
any real way at all? I think zoo animals should be used | :17:38. | :17:40. | |
as ambassadors for their wild counterparts. They are there to | :17:41. | :17:48. | |
engage people so those people develop a deep affinity to wild | :17:49. | :17:59. | |
animals. And are educated to look after their wild counterparts. I | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
remember going to a zoo when I was 11 and coming face`to`face with a | :18:04. | :18:06. | |
tiger for the first time, and that image of that animal is as fresh in | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
my mind as it was when I encountered it. | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
And that means that you can justify that these animals are kept in small | :18:15. | :18:21. | |
enclosures... No. In a way that, frankly, leaves them | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
with a low quality of life. Of course, I cannot justify that. We | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
should constantly strive to update the conditions, given the knowledge | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
that we acquire. There are certain animals that should never be kept in | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
captivity but we continue to do it. The one essential thing is that zoos | :18:40. | :18:42. | |
must, must embrace their educational remit. If these animals are just | :18:43. | :18:52. | |
used as a circus, as a gallery of life, then that is shameful and | :18:53. | :19:00. | |
outdated. Dolphin exhibits, even if they are the best ones we see, | :19:01. | :19:03. | |
dolphins are still leaping out of pools and jumping through hoops. | :19:04. | :19:12. | |
What about the preoccupation in many parts of the world with keeping | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
pets? You talk a lot about resources. I have some figures here. | :19:18. | :19:24. | |
People in Britain spend ?15 billion a year on their household pets. You | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
have talked about the lack of resources going into wildlife | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
protection and conservation. Think what you could do with even a small | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
chunk of that money. Do you think it is time to say to people around the | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
world, think about what it costs to keep pets? Think about the natural | :19:43. | :19:49. | |
world beyond your own household. Maybe it is time for people to be | :19:50. | :19:52. | |
weaned off this keeping of pets. No, not at all. I keep dogs and I | :19:53. | :19:59. | |
can tell you that we have co`evolved with dogs. We argue about when they | :20:00. | :20:09. | |
were first domesticated from wolves and during that period of living | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
with animals, every human society all over the world, we have | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
co`evolved with them. `` with these animals. We are genetically | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
predisposed to like or understand dogs. The dogs have co`evolved with | :20:23. | :20:31. | |
us. That is all fine and dandy but you | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
are sitting in a beautiful area with two dogs who seem to be very happy, | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
wandering around. The fact is that people in urban environments keep | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
dogs in small places, sometimes locked up all day. Is it not time to | :20:45. | :20:53. | |
say that this is unacceptable? Where I am heading with this is that | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
we have an affinity for this animal because we have lived with it for | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
this amount of time and I think that one of the reasons it is beneficial | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
to maintain that is that if we learn to live with animals and respect | :21:06. | :21:07. | |
their lives, those attitudes towards other animal life will rub off. I am | :21:08. | :21:20. | |
sure that a lot of people who opposed fox`hunting were motivated | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
to care about foxes because, in an abstract way, they care about their | :21:24. | :21:35. | |
dogs. They respect other life. I have watched you interact with | :21:36. | :21:38. | |
your own dogs and you do seem to regard them as friends. | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
They are, they are companions. They are dumb animals. | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
They are far from dumb. Your animal seems to be confused. | :21:50. | :21:59. | |
Not at all! They do not talk to me in our language but they communicate | :22:00. | :22:02. | |
with me through their posture, their attitude, their voice. I mean, they | :22:03. | :22:05. | |
have a repertoire of different barks which I can identify. I know what | :22:06. | :22:12. | |
those barks mean. At a rudimentary level, you might consider, they | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
communicate effectively with me. You get a more satisfactory relationship | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
out of your dog than a fellow human? None of my dogs have lied to me or | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
let me down. I have a different relationship with them. It is not as | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
complex as a human, but I will tell you something. There was a lot more | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
security there than there is with most human relationships, and I do | :22:39. | :22:41. | |
not think that that is something I should be embarrassed about. The | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
vast majority of dog owners in the UK probably feel the same way. | :22:46. | :22:53. | |
Many environmentalists and conservationists on this programme | :22:54. | :22:56. | |
strike me as having a bleak view of where this is going. Are you | :22:57. | :23:10. | |
depressed? No, we're too intelligent... We do need a kick up | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
the backside before we get organised. Unfortunately, we respond | :23:17. | :23:18. | |
best to catastrophes. We need something to shock us before we act. | :23:19. | :23:28. | |
Equally, we are moving towards an age where we will be able to elect | :23:29. | :23:31. | |
decision`makers who are better informed to make decisions of an | :23:32. | :23:34. | |
environmental nature and I equally think that we are moving towards an | :23:35. | :23:37. | |
age where the economists and ecologists will have a better degree | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
of parity, and when that happens, we will have the intelligence to shape | :23:41. | :23:43. | |
our impact on the planet in a positive way, and we will continue | :23:44. | :23:51. | |
to be here. Very sadly, in the interim period, we will lose some of | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
our sexier species, so I am glad to be here campaigning. At least I have | :23:56. | :24:16. | |
a rhino, a tiger and a panda to argue about. Chris Packham, we have | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
to end there but thank you for being on HARDTalk. | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
It is a pleasure, thank you for the invitation. | :24:26. | :24:39. |