HARDtalk on Location: Iurie Leancă HARDtalk

legally do. Now on BBC News, it's time for

HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk, from the

capital of Moldova. Right now, the stage for another political and

strategic tug of war between the European Union and Russia is set. My

guest is the Prime Minister of Moldova. Iurie Leanca. His ambition

is for this country to become a full member of the European Union. But

there is a problem. A chunk of territory has been in the control of

pro`Russian separatists since the collapse of the Soviet Union. That

may sound a little familiar. So, how does Moldova avoid the fate of

Ukraine? Welcome to HARDtalk. Has the crisis

and violence brought a sense of vulnerability in Moldova? Well, the

tragic developments in Ukraine, just in our neighbourhood, of course are

very dangerous for Ukraine and for the region. Not just because of the

violent actions. It is very hard for security. It's now basically

destroyed. We need to launch the process again. And it does raise

concerns in terms of security and in terms of the economic situation. We

are a small country and we are dependent and vulnerable. You feel

vulnerable? You sound like you do. It's brought and still brings

uncertainty. There is nothing worse than that. We don't know what will

happen today or tomorrow. You need to have answers, positive and

negative. You talk about uncertainty. Surely what has become

more clear and more certain is that Russia has the ability and,

certainly, the intention to impose its influence and, ultimately, you

could argue, its authority on its neighbourhood, what they call the

near abroad, the old Soviet Empire. And you stand as part of that near

abroad. Well, we are not direct neighbours with Russia. But it's an

important country to us for many reasons. You used to be part of the

union. We used to be part of the Empire. Vladimir Putin wants to

reassert Russian authority over what used to be the Soviet Empire. What

we have to understand, there are new realities. We have to understand the

realities of a new world. Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan,

Russia, they are all equal subjects of international law. If he wants to

have a predictable and civilised relationship in this part of the

world and wants to build a prosperous region, we need to

respect each other's opinions. We need to recognise. By the way, we

always acknowledge Russia as a legitimate interest. The only

problem is, how do you pursue that? Does Russia have legitimate

interests in Moldova? Russia does, as does the EU, US, Chinese, big

countries. The only problem is how you pursue those interests. You can

project your attractiveness. That is what the EU does and that is what

Russia should do. They should have influence and a role in development.

You must have thought about this closely because you more than any

other Moldovan politician have driven through this closer

relationship with the European Union. In a sense, the association

agreement that you have just signed is your baby and you know better

than anyone that Moscow regards it as highly provocative. Well, this

stance of Moscow on this decision, especially in regards to trade, is

new. When we came to power in 2009, in September, since then, we have

pursued the same rhetoric, the same objectives It was not the secret to

anyone. So it was not a secret and that's why this reaction is a bit

strange to us. That's number one. Number two, we respect the opinion

of our neighbours. We have two neighbours. What is most important

for me as a politician is to choose our path. From my understanding, my

analysis, our judgement, there's no alternative. To us, if you want to

build a normal European, and, to some extent, boring society, it is

important that all of these new countries in the European Union, we

need to apply the same standards and the same rules. Then I am sure

Moldova will become a functioning state. There are no alternatives.

That is your hope and I can sense the passion in those words but you

must have heard the deputy Russian Prime Minister say just the other

day, " Disassociation with the European Union means Moldova is

fundamentally changing its neutral status." As far as Russia is

concerned, that is not acceptable. Well, he used to say many things.

Usually, he communicates with us via Twitter and Facebook. I would prefer

to have direct communication. An exchange of views and arguments.

There are members of the EU that are neutral countries, outside the

military blocs like Austria, Sweden, Finland. By becoming a member of the

EU, it was still be a long way before we were fully`fledged

members. It doesn't mean that we need to change our status as a

neutral country. It has nothing to do with it. It is simply a wrong and

distorted approach on what neutrality means and what future

membership means. Why do you think the Russians are playing this game?

If you think it's a game. It's difficult to understand. In our

dialogue with officials in Moscow, the foreign ministry, because they

represent the country's official positions, they know very well that

us moving to the EU does not affect neutrality. For my country,

neutrality is still an asset. We don't have to prove it. Russian

colleagues could and should help us to prove it. It is not a liability.

It could bring more predictability, security and reliability to the

country. That's what I'd like him to focus on. If he is a fan of our

neutrality, he should help us to get rid of the Russian army from

Transnistria. I am glad you have raised that subject. It fascinates

me that we talk about Russia and we should, for the audience, explain

that you were trained in Moscow during the time of the Soviet Union

as a diplomat. You even served for a short time as a Soviet diplomat

before the collapse of the Soviet Union. You know the mindset well.

You know how much Moscow still sees the situation in the area where

there's a small population that has broken away from your state, even

though it's on your territory. It looks to Moscow for your future. You

know it gives them leverage in your country. It's true I was trained as

a diplomat in the 1980s and I am proud and grateful to those who

taught me in Moscow. And you know that there are nearly 2000 Russian

troops permanently stationed on your soil inside Transnistria? That gives

Russia a huge stake in the future of that area in Moldova. It is not just

through this military presence. Russia was, is, and always will be

an important partner in our joint efforts, together with the

Ukrainians, to find a political solution. No`one neglects or ignores

or underestimates the influence of Russia. My only request was always

to my Russian colleagues and friends, that they acknowledge our

interests and let's change the way that it is pursued. After 23 years,

since the former Soviet Union was broken, it is still a painful

process. Until we learn that there are new realities. Sometimes, it is

not the Russian approach. Sometimes, emotions are the basis for certain

decisions. You must realise that, if your relations with Moscow continue

to deteriorate, there is a very real possibility that Russian military

intervention could happen in that region, just as it did in Crimea.

You would be powerless to stop it. Transnistria is beyond our control,

you're right. Nothing happened to the extent that the situation would

be outside anyone's control. I appreciate that Moscow did exercise

a type of stabilising effect. That's what I can hope for the future. It

is very fragile. It is fragile. But there is a mechanism, there are

talks. I hope that no`one is interested in a new source of

tension. I'll tell you what, we mentioned the deputy Prime Minister

in Russia, who's responsible for Transnistria. He made a point of

going to the victory day celebrations a couple of months ago

in May. While he was there, he said, "We will do everything necessary to

act as guarantors of security." That is a threat to you. I'm not saying

we ignore or neglect what he says but unfortunately, sometimes, it is

not constructive. His statements are offensive. But we're trying to do

our best not to give people any reason to take a line that would

lead to worsening the relationship. We want to keep active political

dialogue and we want trade to develop. We believe that this makes

is more predictable and stable. It serves our relationships in the US

and with the East. I can see that this might work while you are in

power because she will push forward with this policy but there are

elections coming in November. The main opposition party and its

allies, the communists, are opposed to this agreement and they want,

actually, to join the Russian`backed customs union closer to Moscow. Your

predecessor as Prime Minister said the other day that Russia has

increased its intelligence activity and said Moldova and political

parties, NGOs, the media, and they have only one objective, to

destabilise the government in the run`up to the elections. Do you

agree? So far, I have no evidence of this

direct activities or its subversive nature . Our key problem, again ` we

can always say that Moscow is meddling, is responsible. Moscow's

Ansett to say it is in charge `` answer. Just to look for forgiveness

for our kind of impotence but that is not exactly what I think we

should do. There are things which depend on us and things that don't.

What happens in the region is beyond our control. There are things and

issues and weaknesses in our society which are our direct responsibility.

We need much more sustainable institutions. It is our

responsibility to make our institutions much stronger.

Corruption. It is our responsibility, our guilt and we

need to do much more. Your aspirations ` you coined a phrase

for your strategy, you called it Rethink Moldova and you wanted to

tell Moldova that if you are to become a part of the European

institutional and structural reform. The problem seems to me to be this:

You are not in any position to fix the endemic, systematic corruption

inside your country. Not true. Yes, we were quite slow in tackling this

it is not just endangering the activities

for citizens in day`to`day life. They don't have confidence in

and support from American and European friends. Those who believe

in independent justice, but, justice which should act according to law.

In the last one month, to give you one example, we jailed, for the

first time in our history, two judges. This is extremely difficult

because we have seen huge resistance. It shows the serious

nature of our approach. It also shows that colleagues in justice

understand we cannot leave it like this. Society has reached a critical

point. We need to change it. What I am saying is, it is not easy... You

have put a couple of judges behind bars and police officers as well.

The people you have put behind bars are the people that

really matter, the politicians and their friends at the very top

Moldova who are driving the corruption. I say you are in no

position to fix this problem and I see it because you came to power

because your predecessor was locked in a bitter set of allegations and

counter allegations with Moldova's richest businessmen. `` I say it

because. The former PM, the businessmen still hold key

positions. One is still a leader of a key coalition group. He

effectively decides the prosecutor in the anticorruption department.

These people are still at the very top of your government. They are

under a cloud of suspicion. Again, if you look at what has happened in

the last few months. It is understanding that everyone at the

top of this political elite and at the grassroots understands we

cannot... Bear any more. Why is he still a key member of your governing

coalition? Why was his party given the authority to appoint the

prosecutor general? He is a high ranking member of the democratic

party... You know, you know all of the allegations... No`one has proved

that... You need to prove that someone is guilty. Until it is not

proven, he's not guilty. You are the man who has vowed to completely

change the mentality of your country. Now you sound like a man

who is part of the old regime. That is why it is so important for us to

see an independent justice system. That is why European integration is

so important for us. The European Commission is offering us money and

expertise but puts pressure on us. I am not a lawyer myself but

understand if you don't start with a justice system, you will never be

able, really, to fight corruption and put officials behind bars.

If the judge could be bought, how do you take to justice those who are

punishable? That is why we have received from the European

Commission a 60 million euro grant. You have got a lot of work to do. I

want you to address for me the perception that Europe and the EU

has of Moldova today. You want to be a full member of the EU. You say it

can be achieved within five years. I wonder if you are aware of the

degree to which the EU looks at Moldova and sees a place where not

just corruption is endemic but organised crime is a massive

problem... And, the people trafficking. On the people

trafficking, if you look back, 2009 and today, the trend is very

positive. That is what Americans and people in Brussels can confirm. Yes,

we still have a problem but the situation is much better in terms of

prevention and punishing those who were engaged. Before 2009 almost

no`one was put behind bars. The same goes for organised crime. This city

is pretty secure. Yes, we still have problems. But, we are reforming in

critical ways. I just wonder if you feel you have missed a window of

opportunity in Europe. If you see the last European election results,

you see an extraordinary performance by nationalistic and sometimes

xenophobic political parties that are anti`immigrant, worried about

open borders and frankly they are very worried about extending the EU

to countries like Moldova. It may be that the political temperature in

much of the EU has moved against Moldova. Our people have proved to

be among the best people in terms of integrating themselves into society.

There are many Moldovans in Italy. When I told the PM of Portugal we

need to take them out they said no, they are very good. We really need

them back home. I still believe that the window of opportunity is there.

What makes me happy is despite the new feelings in Europe, everyone

understands that it would be, it would mean we are able to spread

stability further in south`eastern Europe and not allow the instability

to be driven into the EU. If I may say so, Mr PM, you strike

me as an eternal optimist. Is not the likely outcome for Moldova that

you will be stuck in a twilight zone? You will be the subject of a

perpetual tug`of`war between Moscow and the European Union? The net

result will be that you will not be able to achieve the aspirations that

you have set out with me? One year ago, people did not believe. They

never believed we could get this visa`free regime. 60,000 Moldovans

benefited from this. I am quite optimistic that yes, we will be able

to get the European perspective to be candidate and then become, I

don't know, five, seven, eight years. It is critical for me to win

the elections and to become the candidate and then we will be put on

the irreversible side of the pro`democratic reform. And you will

not let Vladimir Putin dictate the future? We need to convince al Zeach

citizens that we can do it. `` al `` our citizens. I believe the wisdom

of my fellow citizens and with support from European friend and

citizens, we will get there. Thank you very much to being on HARDtalk.

Thank you for your interest and I hope you come again to visit us.

Hello. We have continued with the north`south divide over the last few

days. The best of the warmth and sunshine is in the south and the

south`east. More showers across the north. Tonight it looks like showers

will continue across northern and western parts of the UK, quite a

breeze here as well. In the south`east, largely dry with clear

spells. By dawn, temperatures are sitting around these sorts of

temperatures. Cool and fresher in rural spots but mild in the towns