HARDtalk on Location: Yevgeny Shevchuk HARDtalk


HARDtalk on Location: Yevgeny Shevchuk

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Africa. That is it. You are up to date with

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the headlines. Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

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Today, HARDtalk is in a corner of Europe stuck in political and

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strategic limbo. Welcome to Transnistria, a sliver of territory

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inside Moldova, which for the past two decades or so has been in the

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hands of pro`Russian separatists. My guest today is that the self`styled

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president of Transnistria, Yevgeny Shevchuk. As Russia flexes its

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muscle across the former Soviet space, could Transnistria become a

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new zone of conflict between Russia and the West?

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Yevgeny Shevchuk, welcome to HARDtalk. There is something quite

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extraordinary about your small territory. It looks and feels like

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the soviet union never went away. Do you see that as a sign of success?

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`` Soviet Union. Obviously, the impression is based

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on what I see and for example, what I see behind you is the flag that

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your territory has adopted, which of course has the very prominent hammer

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and sickle, the symbol of the soviet union. Does that indicate that you

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want a system here and an ideology which goes back to the Soviet days?

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You make a great deal of the symbols. You have built what you

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call a nation. You have a flag, you have your own currency, the ruble.

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You have your own passports. But, it is all a fantasy. Nobody outside of

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this tiny territory recognises the legitimacy of what you call, your

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state. Bad, what is the point of a passport

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that you cannot use? I don't understand `` but.

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You said, when you were elected in 2011, that you were determined and

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you would work tirelessly to win international recognition for

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Transnistria. On that basis, you have failed.

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Things are changing very fast in this neighbourhood. And, obviously,

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at the top of the list of changes is what has happened in Ukraine. Do you

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see the crisis of that, I mean, your neighbour, Ukraine, as a threat? Or,

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an opportunity? We have seen terrible violence in

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Ukraine. Do you fear that such is the potential for conflict here in

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Transnistria that there could be new violence here, particularly if

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Moscow decides that it needs to intervene in this territory?

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In April, the delivered what you call your state of the nation at

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rest and you made a point of saying that you wanted to see Transnistria

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independent, but then forging a future with Russia. Your Parliament

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has appealed with Russia to annex this territory, just like Crimea ``

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address. Is that really the lesson you draw from what has happened in

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Ukraine, that you want Russia to annex you?

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If I may, the referendum, as you know, had no international

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legitimacy or standing whatsoever. It doesn't mean anything, the vote

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that you had in 2006. But, with respect, I just wonder

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whether you appreciate the degree to which the stands are shifting all

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around you. We now have in Moldova, just a fume aisles that way, a

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government which has signed an association agreement with the

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European union. A few miles that way, a government in the has also

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signed an agreement with the European Union. Both of your

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neighbours are looking to the west, to the European Union, which leaves

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you, sandwiched between them, more isolated than ever before `` up a

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few miles away. It seems to me that, whether you

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like it or not, a lot of your own people see that the political wind

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has changed and that they need to change too. For example, I am sure

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that you are very well aware that a huge number of the people in your

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own territory now either have or want to get a Moldovan passport. Why

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do you think that is? But, surely, this tells you

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something. The figure you didn't come up with was almost 200,000

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people now have Moldovan passport. The reason they do is they can see

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huge attractions to be Moldovan. Not least thanks to the agreement that

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has now been signed, Moldovan passport holders can travel freely,

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without visas, across the Sjinkie Knegt rear of the European Union. ``

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Schengin. I have heard that you yourself have looked into getting a

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Moldovan passport. This shows the craziness of your determination to

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be separate from Moldova. Do you not accept that, looking

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forward and at the economic situation in your territory, and

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considering where the economic potential lies for your people, it

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would be better for your people to make a future with Moldova plan to

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continue to look east to Russia, a territory which you are separated

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from by hundreds of miles? Let me focus for a little bit on your

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relationship with Moscow. You have told me that, you know, you are an

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independent state, state being a word that I am putting in quotation

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marks. You aren't independent at all. If one looks at the facts of

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your territory and how it works, you are totally reliant on Moscow. Let's

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start with gas supplies. And, energy. Basically, it you don't pay

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for the energy, the gas, that you get from Gazprom. You haven't paid

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for years for this gas. In fact, you owe $5 billion. Far from being

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independent, you are entirely reliant on Gazprom, on Russia, for

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your energy supplies. Would you accept that you are

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entirely dependent upon Russia's largess? Your gas supplies, which

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you get for free, unless Russia changes its mind. Also, Russia props

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up your official budget. Without Russia, your government would be

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completely bankrupt. But they have to pay for their gas,

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you don't have to pay for your gas, Russia gives it to you for free.

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And the budget deficit, you accept your government would be completely

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bankrupt were it not for the cash injection Russia sense to you every

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single year. They prop you up. And then there's the question of the

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troops. How many troops are there here from Russia on your territory

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today? The Russians promised to remove all

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of their military forces from this territory in 1995, and they are

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still here. I just wonder whether you ever worry

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that you are being used by Moscow. It is very useful for the Russians

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to have this" Frozen conflict" inside mol dova. They don't want to

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recognise your independence. They don't want to give you a union with

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the Russian Federation. They just want to keep you here as a stone in

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the shoe of Moldova and of the European Union.

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I tell you who else is an optimist, and I met him the other day, and he

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maintained a very positive view of what will happen in Transnistria,

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and that is the Prime Minister of mol dova, Mr your region anchor. He

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believes in the end Transnistrians will see the logic, the sense, of

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unifying, returning to mol dova stop he says the economic opportunities

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are there for you to see. He says he is offering autonomy. He says he

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wants monitoring systems without military, but a monetary system to

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insure your rights are reserved and he believes in the long`running

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Transnistria will have a future inside Moldova `` monitoring

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system. Do you think that the demographic

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situation here points to optimism when, in 1990, at the time of the

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collapse of the Soviet Union, 700,000 people lived in your

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territory and right now today all of the best estimates suggest fewer

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than 500,000 people actually live on your soil, even though you're very

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cagey about the figures. You are haemorrhaging people. You're now

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down to a point where to talk of a nation in such a territory, with

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such a tiny population, just seems absurd.

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Which have found a successful economic formula, which clearly you

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have not found. You say you are an optimist and you

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believe in the people in your territory. If that's the case, why

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is it that according to human rights organisations like Freedom House,

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freedom of expression is certainly dearly curtailed here. The state

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exercises control of the broadcast media, public protests require a

:19:55.:20:01.

permit, the judiciary is subservient to the executive and politically

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motivated arrests and detentions are commonplace. Why?

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In terms of rights, one of the issues which international

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campaigners have looked at is the way in which Moldovan citizens,

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people who particularly use the Moldovan language, are treated on

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the soil here in Transnistria. In 2012, European Court of Human Rights

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ruling found that there were unacceptable restrictions on the

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teaching of Moldovan in schools, on your territory. In fact Russia was

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held responsible and was fined. Why is it that you are so frightened of

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people speaking the Moldovan language?

:21:34.:21:58.

With respect, this wasn't a complaint directed by the Moldovan

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government. This was a complaint and a ruling that came from the European

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Court of Human Rights. Before we end, I just want to think

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a little bit about the future. If you look at the young people that

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you are responsible for in this territory and you think about their

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children as well, do you really think the course you are pursuing

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today is in their best long`term interests?

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Yevgeny Shevchuk, thank you very much for being on HARDtalk. Thank

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you.

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