Yuval Steinitz - Minister of Intelligence, Israel HARDtalk

changes have been made. That is it. You

on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk. It was filmed in Jerusalem with

Stephen Sackur. Welcome to HARDtalk from Jerusalem

with me, Stephen Sackur. A ceasefire is now in place in Gaza and the

Israeli government faces a simple question: what exactly did Operation

Protective Edge achieve? For all the death and destruction in Gaza, has

Israel's position been strengthened or weakened? I am joined here in

Jerusalem by Israel's Minister of Intelligence, Yuval Steinitz. Is it

time for an Israeli strategic rethink?

Yuval Steinitz, welcome to HARDtalk. Pleasure. We have to start with a

ceasefire. You have said that that deal has left a sour taste in your

mouth. Why? 450 days we were under daily mortar at Dax from Gaza. It

was an area that was supposed to be demilitarised by the Palestinian

Authority. `` attacks. For nothing. This was an unnecessary round of

violence between us and the Hamas in Gaza that brought misery and

suffering on both sides without significant effect. And, without

significant achievement on Israel's side. Would you except that? It has

been a strategic failure. I don't accept this. Our main purpose, like

any democratic government is to first protect our people, our

citizens. If we have a long ceasefire now, if we did resume our

deterrent capacity vis`a`vis Hamas and other organisations, then we

achieved our goal. We paid a very expensive price with 70 casualties

on our side, with people who had to flee their homes in the south of

Israel because of the daily barrage of rockets and mortars. This is a

to pay. You talk about restoring the to pay. You talk about restoring the

deterrent capacity of Israel. Clearly, the deterrent was

undermined. Despite relentless bombardment from Israel, Hamas

Rockets kept coming in to your country even just before the

ceasefire, 100 rockets every day. Hamas was not intimidated by all of

Israel's military superiority. Stephen, I am ready to collaborate

on the reasons, the cause of why Hamas began this round of violence

in the first place just seven weeks ago and why they refused a

ceasefire. Under the same conditions that were proposed by the Egyptians

after one week. Now, the excepted. Let's face it, Hamas people have

brought death and destruction on themselves and also unfortunately on

the people of Gaza. Now, they are going out and they have to explain

to themselves and to the people of Gaza to an extent, what for, why,

what do they gain? I spoke with the political leader of Hamas in Qatar,

just a short time ago, and he said there would not be a ceasefire

unless the people of Gaza saw the blockade imposed upon them by Israel

lifted. You say that Hamas has not achieved anything but the fact is

that the crossings will be opened for humanitarian aid and for

construction materials. The border with Egypt will be opened and to

that extent, Hamas can say to its people, we have lifted that

blockade. Stephen, this is ridiculous, why? Because, the border

passage between Gaza and Israel was opened before this round of violence

and I tell you, even during the violence we enabled hundreds of

trucks with humanitarian aid. This was the situation before the last

round of violence. Bad, it goes further, the Israelis have committed

over the next month, as long as the ceasefire holds, to begin a

negotiation over opening a seaport in Gaza, reopening the bombed

airport in Gaza, extending the fishing limits for Gaza's fishermen

`` But. These are all things that Hamas leaders will show there are

people in Gaza and say, look, the suffering was worth forcing Israel

into concessions. This isn't exactly the case. In the ceasefire

announcement or proposal, none of these issues were mentioned. All

that was mentioned was that one month from now, if the ceasefire is

fully kept, there will be indirect talks with the Egyptians about

everything they want to raise on both sides. We say already there

will not be a seaport or airport in Gaza unless it is demilitarised

exactly like Ramallah and in those indirect talks we will insist that

demilitarisation come first because we already have got clear

Palestinian commitment that Gaza and the West Bank will be demilitarised

for ever come what may. This was violated, this is part of the

problem in Gaza and there are four it should be the core of any

long`term and genuine solution `` for. Are you trying to persuade me

that Operation Protective Edge, for all of its 50 days, was not in the

end a strategic failure? You don't have to convince me, you have to

convince the Israeli public. An opinion polls suggest that over

recent days that support for Benjamin Netanyahu has been

haemorrhaging. We know that half the Cabinet was opposed to the ceasefire

deal because they believed it has allowed Hamas to emerge with far too

much and just to quote you want of the council heads in southern Israel

whose term was being attacked by Hamas mortars, he says that after

the deal, concessions two Hamas are a surrender to terrorism. So, you

have a big trouble with your own people. You are right. We have a big

problem generally speak on. People are frustrated, I will tell you why,

because in Israel, everybody remembers that just nine years ago

we pulled out from Gaza, we uprooted the Jewish settlements inside Gaza.

People are frustrated because once and again they are being attacked

from territories that were given back to the Palestinian's

self`control, given back for peace, given back under clear commitment,

written commitment that the territory was given back to the

Palestinian authority under the condition that it is demilitarised.

Clearly, people are frustrated in Israel. My view was from the outset

that it is problematic what I have suggested, that we have no other

choice and sooner or later we will have to recapture Gaza, to wreak

Tour we occupy Gaza in order to eradicate the terrorist army over

there. It is also very collocated. How close, you can tell me, how

close did the Benjamin Netanyahu government come to giving the green

light to the full military re` occupation of Gaza? You in Cabinet

was briefed upon it by military commanders. How close did it come to

that? I cannot elaborate on this. All that I can say is that it was

seriously considered and I can tell you one thing, if Hamas would insist

on continuing the rocket fire into Israel for another few weeks or

months, I assume that this would be the only alternative. It could still

happen? If Hamas resume the fire and there is no other option. The point

is I am interested in the political dynamic in this country. Senior

ministers in coalition with Benjamin Netanyahu, they counselled in favour

of the full reoccupation of Gaza. Did you? Yes. Yes. So you think that

Benjamin Netanyahu made a strategic mistake? No. That is the only

logic. I knew that one day, sooner or later, they would be no other

alternative but to destroy and eradicate this terrorist army, this

established inside Gaza. This would established inside Gaza. This would

be a relief not only for Israel but for the people of Gaza. Listen, it

is an extremely complicated situation. The Prime Minister has

tried it in a very clever way. I appreciate the way we conducted this

almost impossible situation. Would you accept that the last 50 days of

Operation Protective Edge, have done enormous damage to Israel's standing

in the world? There was some damage, we cannot deny it. We feel extremely

frustrated at about it. We found it quite difficult to understand. Why

it it's so legitimate for other western democracies, countries, to

fight terrorism and sometimes... You know, I remember when the United

States and Britain lead the global war against terrorism. You went into

Afghanistan and, unfortunately, there were also civilian casualties

over there. But, this was legitimate for you, for the United States and

people to fight against Al Qaeda after the 9/11 bombing attacks in

New York. Hamas in the past has sent hundreds of suicide almost two

Israeli restaurants, buses, schools, youth clubs and hotels. Surely you

won't use what Hamas has done in the past to justify what Israel does

today. I am surprised that you are surprised by the international

reaction when more than 2000 people reaction when more than 2000 people

have been killed, mostly civilians. When UNICEF says that 450 children

have been killed inside Gaza. You are surprised that the international

community has a problem with that? We also has a problem with that. It

is a tragedy that Hamas has brought this on themselves and the people of

Gaza. I am surprised that you think it is irrelevant that Hamas in the

past when it was possible, sent hundreds of suicide bombers to our

streets, killing 1000 civilians. Only when it was pushed from the

West Bank into Gaza and they shifted the tactic because it was impossible

to land a suicide bombing attacks into Israel, now they launch rockets

from Gaza. Are you prepared to say to me that now it is over...

(CROSSTALK) let me complete my answer. Hamas' aim to destroy the

state of Israel, there past behaviour to use a suicide bombing

strategy against Israeli civilians, the Hamas future goal, ultimate

goal, to bring total destruction to 6 million Jews and to the Jewish

state, this is very relevant to our current fighting wisdom. (CROSSTALK)

I understand the point you are making. It is also relevant that

Hamas has started the violence and has so far refused 11 ceasefire

proposals. Don't forget, Stephen, the ultimate commitment of any

democratic government is to protect its citizens, are citizens are under

daily bombardment of hundreds of rockets from Gaza on a daily basis.

I understand the point you are making... Luckily enough, the courts

less strategies than the suicide bombing strategy because we have

strong rocket defences. My job is to hold to account Hamas leaders for

what they have done and to hold to account if I can Israel's leadership

for what they have done. Ryton, I am asking you that the ceasefire in

place, and we hope that it holds, are you prepared to say that Israel

got something is very wrong in this campaign? For example, the

decision, explicit, to attack civilian targets including you and

schools when you knew they were used as shelters for a Palestinian

civilians seeking safety in the midst of bombardment. Are you now

prepared to say that we got something is terribly wrong?

let me tell you with some respect that there is some hypocrisy in this

question. I had never heard any... Criticism when the US and UK were in

Fallujah in Iraq and terrorists took shelter among civilians in Iraq and

you did your best to avoid civilian casualties but there were civilian

casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan. (CROSSTALK). You were fighting for

your people and we are fighting for our will stop when the US described

the bombing of a UN school is appalling, disgraceful, when Ban

Ki`Moon, the secretary general of the UN, expressed moral outrage at

this criminal act, are you saying that those words, that International

reaction from your friends means nothing to Israel? It means

sometimes, people adopt double standards. We are defending our

people who are under direct attack on a daily basis. We did not attack

any place unless we were fired upon from this place, unless somebody

launched rockets from this place. The IDF will using unique tactics,

warning by telephone calls, SMS and even by warning shots before many of

these attacks. Face the realities. The realities are that we were

attacked from densely populated areas and the first duty of any

civilian, democratic government is to protect its people. If you are so

sure that the Israeli forces acted with responsibility and rectitude,

then why not accept the UN Human Rights Commission's committee of

inquiry, which has been set up and which you personally has already

condemned? If you are so sure that your forces acted in the right way,

within international law, an album to be held to account. For several

reasons. First of all, Benjamin was first to condemn us this time. ``

Ban Ki`Moon. He said that Israel last year was discriminated against

in all UN institutions and that this double standard was disturbing. You

will not co`operate with the UN? (CROSSTALK). Let me make clear why.

Answer the question. Will you co`operate? I think not and let me

tell you why. First, we will not accept double standards. Nobody has

established in a inquiry committees about Russia in Chechnya, about the

US and Britain in Iraq and Afghanistan, about many other

places. Secondly, the head of this inquiry has already called Israel a

criminal state, has already called for the indictment of Prime Minister

Benjamin Netanyahu. Any fair`minded judge in Israel or in the UK or in

the US would quit. You know he is a respected international lawyer who

sits on the advisory board of the Israel for review. This is not the

issue. What is to the issue is that Israel refuses to be held to account

but you may, and you know this, the end up before the International

Criminal Court. Your government may be investigated for war crimes and

crimes against humanity. I will tell you what the issue is here. Do not

use double standards against the little tiny Jewish state. This tiny

democracy that has had to survive and defend itself in maybe the most

difficult of neighbourhoods on the face of the earth. Do not use double

standards against us and do not use measures against ask that you do not

take against other countries in the West or the rest of the world. This

is first. Do not use double standards against the Jewish state.

Do not discriminate against us when we are defending ourselves and our

people. That is our duty. One question, which is not about

international law, but the feeling that is growing in part of the

international community that Israel has somehow lost its moral compass.

I will quote you words from one senior Likud politician in this

country. He said this a few weeks ago. Obviously you know him. He

said: One hair on the head of an Israeli soldier is more precious

than the entire Gazan population. When you hear words like that, do

you feel sympathy for them or do you condemn them? I totally disagree and

I totally condemn. So, what is going on in Israel when a senior

politician can say something like that and feel like that reflects the

views of people in this country? This does not reflect the views of

most people in Israel and this does not reflect our behaviour. He is in

your party. He is a member of the tennis that, a Member of Parliament.

He is not a prominent politician. What is going on? The truth is the

opposite. We put many of our soldiers at great risk in order to

minimise collateral damage. This is the truth. The truth for many

outside Israel is that you no longer value Palestinian life. This is

totally against all of the evidence in all of our behaviour. We value

Palestinian life. We value our own life. We feel sorry for the tragedy

in Gaza. Do not forget, we have withdrawn from Gaza. We have stopped

Jewish settlements in Gaza. We got a Palestinian commitment that once

Israeli settlements in Gaza were over, there would be no rockets.

Instead of supporting and backing us, the world, including Europe, the

rest of the world supported us just nine years ago when we uprooted the

Jewish settlements in Gaza and we ended the Israeli presence in Gaza

and it was totally delivered to the hands of the Palestinian government,

the whole world praised us and told us, now that you are out of Gaza,

there will be no hostilities. And if they continue to attack you, you

will have the full right to defend yourself. And now, this is

unfortunately what is going on and we have to defend ourselves. I want

to end with one big thought. Israel, and you had acknowledged it, has

suffered in the international community. The relationship with

Washington right now is described by a former US ambassador to Israel as

dysfunctional. And now the Palestinians are seeking to

internationalise the conflict. They are going back to the UN, demanding

that the UN set a deadline for the resolution of the Israel`Palestine

conflict. And some around the world are talking of putting new pressure

on Israel, with sanctions. Here are the words of a senior Israeli

security official from the recent past: I will never support sanctions

on my country but this government is bringing huge problems onto what's.

We, he says, are losing legitimacy. Do you accept that? Not at all. You

are reading too much Israeli press. Let me... I'm just listening to a

man who was the director of Shin Bet until 2011. It's very important to

listen. But let me address directly your question. First, the relations

between Israel and the US are good, very good. I'm supposed to be

visiting the US in September morning the two discussed the Iranian

nuclear issue but also other Middle East issues. `` mainly to discuss.

We have a strong relationship with the US and we are encouraged by the

strong support from the US government and European foreign

ministers that the core of the problem is the militarisation of

Gaza and the support that any genuine solution should include the

demilitarisation of Gaza. But I want to suggest to you and our

listeners. Put yourself in our place. What would have the

government of Britain or any European government or in America,

what would they do if suddenly a terrorist organisation launched

thousands of rockets into major cities. In two London, Liverpool and

Manchester. Put yourself in our place and ask yourself what would be

your reaction if, instead of sitting in Europe, Britain or Finland or

Germany would be here in the middle of the Middle East and had to

protect themselves against terrorists organisations like

Hezbollah or Islamic Jihad or how Mass. We have two end there. Thank

you for coming onto the programme. You are welcome.

Things are improving through this morning, with some