Yuval Steinitz - Minister of Intelligence, Israel HARDtalk


Yuval Steinitz - Minister of Intelligence, Israel

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changes have been made. That is it. You

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on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk. It was filmed in Jerusalem with

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Stephen Sackur. Welcome to HARDtalk from Jerusalem

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with me, Stephen Sackur. A ceasefire is now in place in Gaza and the

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Israeli government faces a simple question: what exactly did Operation

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Protective Edge achieve? For all the death and destruction in Gaza, has

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Israel's position been strengthened or weakened? I am joined here in

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Jerusalem by Israel's Minister of Intelligence, Yuval Steinitz. Is it

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time for an Israeli strategic rethink?

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Yuval Steinitz, welcome to HARDtalk. Pleasure. We have to start with a

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ceasefire. You have said that that deal has left a sour taste in your

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mouth. Why? 450 days we were under daily mortar at Dax from Gaza. It

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was an area that was supposed to be demilitarised by the Palestinian

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Authority. `` attacks. For nothing. This was an unnecessary round of

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violence between us and the Hamas in Gaza that brought misery and

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suffering on both sides without significant effect. And, without

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significant achievement on Israel's side. Would you except that? It has

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been a strategic failure. I don't accept this. Our main purpose, like

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any democratic government is to first protect our people, our

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citizens. If we have a long ceasefire now, if we did resume our

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deterrent capacity vis`a`vis Hamas and other organisations, then we

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achieved our goal. We paid a very expensive price with 70 casualties

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on our side, with people who had to flee their homes in the south of

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Israel because of the daily barrage of rockets and mortars. This is a

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to pay. You talk about restoring the to pay. You talk about restoring the

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deterrent capacity of Israel. Clearly, the deterrent was

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undermined. Despite relentless bombardment from Israel, Hamas

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Rockets kept coming in to your country even just before the

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ceasefire, 100 rockets every day. Hamas was not intimidated by all of

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Israel's military superiority. Stephen, I am ready to collaborate

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on the reasons, the cause of why Hamas began this round of violence

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in the first place just seven weeks ago and why they refused a

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ceasefire. Under the same conditions that were proposed by the Egyptians

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after one week. Now, the excepted. Let's face it, Hamas people have

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brought death and destruction on themselves and also unfortunately on

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the people of Gaza. Now, they are going out and they have to explain

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to themselves and to the people of Gaza to an extent, what for, why,

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what do they gain? I spoke with the political leader of Hamas in Qatar,

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just a short time ago, and he said there would not be a ceasefire

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unless the people of Gaza saw the blockade imposed upon them by Israel

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lifted. You say that Hamas has not achieved anything but the fact is

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that the crossings will be opened for humanitarian aid and for

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construction materials. The border with Egypt will be opened and to

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that extent, Hamas can say to its people, we have lifted that

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blockade. Stephen, this is ridiculous, why? Because, the border

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passage between Gaza and Israel was opened before this round of violence

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and I tell you, even during the violence we enabled hundreds of

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trucks with humanitarian aid. This was the situation before the last

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round of violence. Bad, it goes further, the Israelis have committed

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over the next month, as long as the ceasefire holds, to begin a

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negotiation over opening a seaport in Gaza, reopening the bombed

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airport in Gaza, extending the fishing limits for Gaza's fishermen

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`` But. These are all things that Hamas leaders will show there are

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people in Gaza and say, look, the suffering was worth forcing Israel

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into concessions. This isn't exactly the case. In the ceasefire

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announcement or proposal, none of these issues were mentioned. All

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that was mentioned was that one month from now, if the ceasefire is

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fully kept, there will be indirect talks with the Egyptians about

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everything they want to raise on both sides. We say already there

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will not be a seaport or airport in Gaza unless it is demilitarised

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exactly like Ramallah and in those indirect talks we will insist that

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demilitarisation come first because we already have got clear

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Palestinian commitment that Gaza and the West Bank will be demilitarised

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for ever come what may. This was violated, this is part of the

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problem in Gaza and there are four it should be the core of any

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long`term and genuine solution `` for. Are you trying to persuade me

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that Operation Protective Edge, for all of its 50 days, was not in the

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end a strategic failure? You don't have to convince me, you have to

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convince the Israeli public. An opinion polls suggest that over

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recent days that support for Benjamin Netanyahu has been

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haemorrhaging. We know that half the Cabinet was opposed to the ceasefire

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deal because they believed it has allowed Hamas to emerge with far too

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much and just to quote you want of the council heads in southern Israel

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whose term was being attacked by Hamas mortars, he says that after

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the deal, concessions two Hamas are a surrender to terrorism. So, you

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have a big trouble with your own people. You are right. We have a big

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problem generally speak on. People are frustrated, I will tell you why,

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because in Israel, everybody remembers that just nine years ago

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we pulled out from Gaza, we uprooted the Jewish settlements inside Gaza.

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People are frustrated because once and again they are being attacked

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from territories that were given back to the Palestinian's

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self`control, given back for peace, given back under clear commitment,

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written commitment that the territory was given back to the

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Palestinian authority under the condition that it is demilitarised.

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Clearly, people are frustrated in Israel. My view was from the outset

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that it is problematic what I have suggested, that we have no other

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choice and sooner or later we will have to recapture Gaza, to wreak

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Tour we occupy Gaza in order to eradicate the terrorist army over

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there. It is also very collocated. How close, you can tell me, how

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close did the Benjamin Netanyahu government come to giving the green

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light to the full military re` occupation of Gaza? You in Cabinet

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was briefed upon it by military commanders. How close did it come to

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that? I cannot elaborate on this. All that I can say is that it was

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seriously considered and I can tell you one thing, if Hamas would insist

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on continuing the rocket fire into Israel for another few weeks or

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months, I assume that this would be the only alternative. It could still

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happen? If Hamas resume the fire and there is no other option. The point

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is I am interested in the political dynamic in this country. Senior

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ministers in coalition with Benjamin Netanyahu, they counselled in favour

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of the full reoccupation of Gaza. Did you? Yes. Yes. So you think that

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Benjamin Netanyahu made a strategic mistake? No. That is the only

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logic. I knew that one day, sooner or later, they would be no other

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alternative but to destroy and eradicate this terrorist army, this

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established inside Gaza. This would established inside Gaza. This would

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be a relief not only for Israel but for the people of Gaza. Listen, it

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is an extremely complicated situation. The Prime Minister has

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tried it in a very clever way. I appreciate the way we conducted this

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almost impossible situation. Would you accept that the last 50 days of

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Operation Protective Edge, have done enormous damage to Israel's standing

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in the world? There was some damage, we cannot deny it. We feel extremely

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frustrated at about it. We found it quite difficult to understand. Why

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it it's so legitimate for other western democracies, countries, to

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fight terrorism and sometimes... You know, I remember when the United

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States and Britain lead the global war against terrorism. You went into

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Afghanistan and, unfortunately, there were also civilian casualties

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over there. But, this was legitimate for you, for the United States and

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people to fight against Al Qaeda after the 9/11 bombing attacks in

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New York. Hamas in the past has sent hundreds of suicide almost two

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Israeli restaurants, buses, schools, youth clubs and hotels. Surely you

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won't use what Hamas has done in the past to justify what Israel does

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today. I am surprised that you are surprised by the international

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reaction when more than 2000 people reaction when more than 2000 people

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have been killed, mostly civilians. When UNICEF says that 450 children

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have been killed inside Gaza. You are surprised that the international

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community has a problem with that? We also has a problem with that. It

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is a tragedy that Hamas has brought this on themselves and the people of

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Gaza. I am surprised that you think it is irrelevant that Hamas in the

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past when it was possible, sent hundreds of suicide bombers to our

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streets, killing 1000 civilians. Only when it was pushed from the

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West Bank into Gaza and they shifted the tactic because it was impossible

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to land a suicide bombing attacks into Israel, now they launch rockets

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from Gaza. Are you prepared to say to me that now it is over...

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(CROSSTALK) let me complete my answer. Hamas' aim to destroy the

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state of Israel, there past behaviour to use a suicide bombing

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strategy against Israeli civilians, the Hamas future goal, ultimate

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goal, to bring total destruction to 6 million Jews and to the Jewish

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state, this is very relevant to our current fighting wisdom. (CROSSTALK)

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I understand the point you are making. It is also relevant that

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Hamas has started the violence and has so far refused 11 ceasefire

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proposals. Don't forget, Stephen, the ultimate commitment of any

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democratic government is to protect its citizens, are citizens are under

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daily bombardment of hundreds of rockets from Gaza on a daily basis.

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I understand the point you are making... Luckily enough, the courts

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less strategies than the suicide bombing strategy because we have

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strong rocket defences. My job is to hold to account Hamas leaders for

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what they have done and to hold to account if I can Israel's leadership

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for what they have done. Ryton, I am asking you that the ceasefire in

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place, and we hope that it holds, are you prepared to say that Israel

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got something is very wrong in this campaign? For example, the

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decision, explicit, to attack civilian targets including you and

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schools when you knew they were used as shelters for a Palestinian

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civilians seeking safety in the midst of bombardment. Are you now

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prepared to say that we got something is terribly wrong?

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let me tell you with some respect that there is some hypocrisy in this

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question. I had never heard any... Criticism when the US and UK were in

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Fallujah in Iraq and terrorists took shelter among civilians in Iraq and

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you did your best to avoid civilian casualties but there were civilian

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casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan. (CROSSTALK). You were fighting for

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your people and we are fighting for our will stop when the US described

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the bombing of a UN school is appalling, disgraceful, when Ban

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Ki`Moon, the secretary general of the UN, expressed moral outrage at

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this criminal act, are you saying that those words, that International

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reaction from your friends means nothing to Israel? It means

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sometimes, people adopt double standards. We are defending our

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people who are under direct attack on a daily basis. We did not attack

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any place unless we were fired upon from this place, unless somebody

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launched rockets from this place. The IDF will using unique tactics,

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warning by telephone calls, SMS and even by warning shots before many of

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these attacks. Face the realities. The realities are that we were

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attacked from densely populated areas and the first duty of any

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civilian, democratic government is to protect its people. If you are so

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sure that the Israeli forces acted with responsibility and rectitude,

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then why not accept the UN Human Rights Commission's committee of

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inquiry, which has been set up and which you personally has already

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condemned? If you are so sure that your forces acted in the right way,

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within international law, an album to be held to account. For several

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reasons. First of all, Benjamin was first to condemn us this time. ``

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Ban Ki`Moon. He said that Israel last year was discriminated against

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in all UN institutions and that this double standard was disturbing. You

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will not co`operate with the UN? (CROSSTALK). Let me make clear why.

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Answer the question. Will you co`operate? I think not and let me

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tell you why. First, we will not accept double standards. Nobody has

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established in a inquiry committees about Russia in Chechnya, about the

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US and Britain in Iraq and Afghanistan, about many other

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places. Secondly, the head of this inquiry has already called Israel a

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criminal state, has already called for the indictment of Prime Minister

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Benjamin Netanyahu. Any fair`minded judge in Israel or in the UK or in

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the US would quit. You know he is a respected international lawyer who

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sits on the advisory board of the Israel for review. This is not the

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issue. What is to the issue is that Israel refuses to be held to account

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but you may, and you know this, the end up before the International

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Criminal Court. Your government may be investigated for war crimes and

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crimes against humanity. I will tell you what the issue is here. Do not

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use double standards against the little tiny Jewish state. This tiny

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democracy that has had to survive and defend itself in maybe the most

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difficult of neighbourhoods on the face of the earth. Do not use double

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standards against us and do not use measures against ask that you do not

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take against other countries in the West or the rest of the world. This

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is first. Do not use double standards against the Jewish state.

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Do not discriminate against us when we are defending ourselves and our

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people. That is our duty. One question, which is not about

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international law, but the feeling that is growing in part of the

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international community that Israel has somehow lost its moral compass.

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I will quote you words from one senior Likud politician in this

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country. He said this a few weeks ago. Obviously you know him. He

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said: One hair on the head of an Israeli soldier is more precious

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than the entire Gazan population. When you hear words like that, do

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you feel sympathy for them or do you condemn them? I totally disagree and

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I totally condemn. So, what is going on in Israel when a senior

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politician can say something like that and feel like that reflects the

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views of people in this country? This does not reflect the views of

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most people in Israel and this does not reflect our behaviour. He is in

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your party. He is a member of the tennis that, a Member of Parliament.

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He is not a prominent politician. What is going on? The truth is the

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opposite. We put many of our soldiers at great risk in order to

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minimise collateral damage. This is the truth. The truth for many

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outside Israel is that you no longer value Palestinian life. This is

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totally against all of the evidence in all of our behaviour. We value

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Palestinian life. We value our own life. We feel sorry for the tragedy

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in Gaza. Do not forget, we have withdrawn from Gaza. We have stopped

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Jewish settlements in Gaza. We got a Palestinian commitment that once

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Israeli settlements in Gaza were over, there would be no rockets.

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Instead of supporting and backing us, the world, including Europe, the

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rest of the world supported us just nine years ago when we uprooted the

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Jewish settlements in Gaza and we ended the Israeli presence in Gaza

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and it was totally delivered to the hands of the Palestinian government,

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the whole world praised us and told us, now that you are out of Gaza,

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there will be no hostilities. And if they continue to attack you, you

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will have the full right to defend yourself. And now, this is

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unfortunately what is going on and we have to defend ourselves. I want

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to end with one big thought. Israel, and you had acknowledged it, has

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suffered in the international community. The relationship with

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Washington right now is described by a former US ambassador to Israel as

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dysfunctional. And now the Palestinians are seeking to

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internationalise the conflict. They are going back to the UN, demanding

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that the UN set a deadline for the resolution of the Israel`Palestine

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conflict. And some around the world are talking of putting new pressure

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on Israel, with sanctions. Here are the words of a senior Israeli

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security official from the recent past: I will never support sanctions

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on my country but this government is bringing huge problems onto what's.

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We, he says, are losing legitimacy. Do you accept that? Not at all. You

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are reading too much Israeli press. Let me... I'm just listening to a

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man who was the director of Shin Bet until 2011. It's very important to

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listen. But let me address directly your question. First, the relations

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between Israel and the US are good, very good. I'm supposed to be

:22:33.:22:38.

visiting the US in September morning the two discussed the Iranian

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nuclear issue but also other Middle East issues. `` mainly to discuss.

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We have a strong relationship with the US and we are encouraged by the

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strong support from the US government and European foreign

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ministers that the core of the problem is the militarisation of

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Gaza and the support that any genuine solution should include the

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demilitarisation of Gaza. But I want to suggest to you and our

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listeners. Put yourself in our place. What would have the

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government of Britain or any European government or in America,

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what would they do if suddenly a terrorist organisation launched

:23:28.:23:30.

thousands of rockets into major cities. In two London, Liverpool and

:23:31.:23:37.

Manchester. Put yourself in our place and ask yourself what would be

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your reaction if, instead of sitting in Europe, Britain or Finland or

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Germany would be here in the middle of the Middle East and had to

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protect themselves against terrorists organisations like

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Hezbollah or Islamic Jihad or how Mass. We have two end there. Thank

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you for coming onto the programme. You are welcome.

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Things are improving through this morning, with some

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