Rasha Hefzi - Jeddah Municipal Council, Saudi Arabia HARDtalk

Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk with Zeinab Badawi from the Saudi Arabians city

of Jeddah. My guest is Saudi businesswoman Rasha Hefzi. She is

one of 21 women who was elected to a municipal council in Saudi Arabia in

what were seen -- in what was seen as a huge step forward for women.

But was it? Rasha Hefzi, welcome to HARDtalk.

Thank you. History was made in Saudi Arabia in December last year when

women were allowed to stand and vote in elections for the first time

ever. How can you be sure that represents progress? Well, as you

said, this was the first time for women to take a decision by being a

voter and candidate. It was the first time for us to carry the load

of our city, Jeddah. So yes, it is history being made by women and

everybody. How are you finding it serving on the council in Jeddah?

You have had some problems, haven't you? It is very challenging. Saudi

Arabia is a very complicated society. You have people from

different backgrounds, schools of thought and ideologies and trying to

compromise and just have a common ground with all these counsellors

with you in the Council, and representing the problems of your

city is really challenging. Albright. So you another counsellor

here in Jeddah, the idea was that you attended the monthly council

meetings where everybody gets together but you have to sit behind

an opaque glass panel. You and your partner refused to do so and said,

no, we want to sit at the table with our fellow male counsellors and some

of the men refused and it caused a huge problem. Briefly describe what

happened? Let me first talk about the table come out why we all sit at

one table. It represents that we are all sharing the decision, we are

sharing representation of the public and the citizens and we know that if

we don't sit at one table, we won't be able to share in the decision, or

share everything else like the workshops, and field visits, meeting

stakeholders and citizens. As you know, and as I mentioned, Saudi

Arabia is a very diverse society and some people have issues in

understanding why it is important for women to be with them at the

same table. Maybe they see this is not except the bolt to them, so we

do accept that, but of course we have to let our voice be heard and

represent our point of view. You are not worried? Because you have

actually received anonymous death threats for wanting to sit at the

tame table -- same table. It's not true. We received rejections from

people that say they think we should not sit at one table and that is

their point of view. From different cities from the Kingdom, but there

were no threats. You have not had any opposition? No. Anonymously or

otherwise? Opposition, yes? People were expressing their point of

view. And how did they do that? They think it is against the norm and

this is not how we should do meetings. They were mentioning that

in every other government entity, there is zero segregation between

men and women and they think they should be applied in all government

entities like the council 's. And do you reply to these criticisms? Of

course. We are following the government statements and you can

see all of the counsellors, men and women, are sitting together in one

room. That is the advisory board to the government. Yes. That his

appointment only. Absolutely. I will just give you one example of a

conservative Saudi voter in the elections in December. Standing

outside a polling station in the capital, Riyadh, he was quoted by

the Associated Press by saying, women's role is at home raising a

family. If we allow the house to to do such business, who is going to

take care of my son 's? I assume he has no daughters, but anyway. That

is a perspective and a point of view and we respect that because he

represents a big portion of society. At the end of the day, you have the

majority, the minority, who are affecting the decision. A big ratio

of society or the biggest? A big ratio. Not the biggest? I don't have

the numbers, there is no accurate study on this. Why do you think

there is a big section of society, although you don't have any idea how

many, who are opposed to women having such a public role? Because

there are many Muslim countries all over the world where you have had

women in positions of power? Benazir Bhutto in Pakistan, the Prime

Minister of Bangladesh, we have had a woman president in Indonesia. All

over the Muslim world you do see women in very powerful positions.

The most powerful positions. But not in Saudi Arabia. Not politically.

Yeah. We are still in the stages of development with these women to hold

such positions. We have the step of appointing a woman in the advisory

Council, we had the first vice president of the board in the

Chamber of Commerce. And we do now have a culture and commercial cachet

although I'm not sure of the name. But what I'm trying to say, what we

are facing right now is a blend between the misinterpretation of

religion and the norm. Or, let's say the culture background. Segregation

will affect the perspective of women's participation in public

life. What you mean about the misinterpretation of religion? You

mean that there is a very conservative form of Islam here in

Saudi Arabia? Wahabi Islam? Which is the more puritanical form, more so

than you seen other countries? I'm not to talk about Wahabi is some,

let's talk about driving which has been rejected by a large subsection

of society. Many supported two are not extremists, who are not

conservative. Much of the time it can be a cultural norm, a cultural

understanding or have it. At the same time, we may be misinterpreting

parts of the Koran based on the way they were raised. The issue of

driving is often seen in the international arena as a very good

example of why women are discriminated against in Saudi

Arabia. And it is baffling, isn't it, that a woman cannot drive? I

think we have a very strict government. In not letting you

drive? I think we have to consider the ability of society to consider

it. There's nothing in the law against it, but the readiness of

society will play a key role in implementing that decision. A woman

driving has been accepted by a ratio of society, I don't also have an

accurate number for this, but also by a big ratio society. I think we

are ready and the government should follow suit. Any idea when that

might be? I don't know, really. Sometimes you see things moving very

fast and some parts are taking a longer time. Maybe we are moving

slowly but surely. But on this issue of driving, I want to turn it

slightly on its head because it is a focus point for many people when it

comes to talk about women's rights but frankly, is it the most

important issue for many women in Saudi Arabia? A lot of them cannot

even afford to purchase a car. Yes, driving is a very important issue.

Even if you are a businesswoman. It is? Of course. If you have lots of

appointments and meetings and so on, it is an important issue. We have

many issues on the table and driving is one of them. I cannot say which

one is the priority. But it is a concern of the lead to, however

wealthy they might be. A survey conducted in 2014 by a charitable

foundation looking at poverty, particularly in female-headed

households, found that nearly 59% of underprivileged Saudi women live in

dilapidated homes and they often support households with a monthly

income of about 400 US dollars a month. And they have very little

means of trying to support themselves. This is a priority to

me. I am fighting for women's issues in low income neighbourhoods for

people who have no education, no jobs. That is a priority to me. And

I am sure driving is a priority for other ladies. The charity said the

poor economic conditions of these women they surveyed, across 13

regions of Saudi Arabia, shows that they need financial support from the

country's social insurance scheme to live decently. They said the main

issues are illiteracy, unemployment and the absence of relatives to

support them. Absolutely. We hear lots about driving but not about

these women. Absolutely and that is what I'm telling you. So much of the

focus is on driving but we want our voices to be heard on other issues.

Access to healthcare? Welfare, education, women in politics. Are

the Saudi women ready to enter into politics? They need this kind of

readiness and knowledge transfer and that is very important fight. Do you

think women in Arabia are holding them back, to some extent? I will

give you another example, the fact that women in Saudi Arabia cannot

travel without either the permission or presence of a male relative. But

an education Ministry spokesperson says, as a Saudi woman, I demand to

have a guardian. My work necessitates go into different areas

of Saudi Arabia and I always bring my husband or my brother. That

his/her personal opinion. Is issue has been discussed also. Also in

Islam, a guardian is usually with a woman who needs one but if I am a

businesswoman and I'm travelling all around, why do I need a guardian? Do

you think perhaps women are colluding their own repression, in a

way, because they themselves will accept restrictions like that? Know,

as I said, it is just the way they understand Islam and him except the

Sharia with civic law -- mix up. There is a very high literacy rate

with Saudi women, 90% of them are educated in their masters degrees

and PhD 's but they only form 18% of the workforce in Saudi Arabia. There

many degrees sitting at home just looking after the household which

seems a bit of a waste. It is not only Saudi women, it is also Saudi

men. We have been discussing, one of the development funds we have been

working on for so long is the difference between education level

than market needs. One of the options is to open different

education centres for women in different fields. But do you think

that, with women being restricted in the kind of workplace that they can

occupy and so on, and the need for segregation, that that really does

act like a constraint? Segregation in public places and government

offices is not an issue. We have been living with this for so long

and we have been working and there is no problem. And it's acceptable?

You are happy being separate? You want to be equal but separate is OK?

Separation is not the issue. At the end of the day, it is your work to

be done. If it was an obstacle to me getting my work done, it would be

difficult but if I can execute my work and get results, there is no

problem with segregation. When we talk about separation and

segregation, you have to study and see the readiness of society to

change that. So you believe, for example, there has been some talk of

women being equal but perhaps they have to just operate in their own

separate space? This idea being equal but separate is the way

forward for Saudi women? Is It is not an example for

everything. In some areas, separation is acceptable, but in

some areas like healthcare businesses, you cannot have

segregation or separation. It depends on the field, the city, the

segregation in society itself in the workforce. When she says out of

respect for our committee and culture, women have to be in their

private space, and she advocates for women gaining skills so they can

provide services to other women and so on. A lot of people have

difficulty with that kind of segregated society. You don't? It

depends on what you are comfortable with. Some women are comfortable

with the segregation. I cannot work in segregation in my work because I

am required to meet men and talk to them and interact with them. When I

talk about the readiness and acceptance of society and the way

they see things in their work. As a councillor in Jeddah, you have

talked about how you go all over Jeddah and you go to areas which

could be described as slum areas where there are Saudis living in

great poverty, how engaged are you with the kind of issues that may

arise in these places? How much of a champion are you? IMA champion, but

I am very well-connected with the people in the slums and all-around

Jeddah. I ran for office because I know the needs for the city, I am

very well-connected with them, the percentage of Saudis in every area.

You talk about non- Saudis. A country of 30 million, 10 million

migrants and 20 million Saudis, the issue of migrant women, is that on

your radar? We get regular reports of domestic abuse involving female

migrant workers and that kind of Sting. Does anybody speak for them

in Saudi Arabia? We have the human rights Association, and helpers for

child abuse. For us, where we work in the slums and areas where we have

this, Jeddah has two holy mosques. People come here all around the

world. Imagine when you have a neighbourhood full of sometimes

crime, problems, there is no implement, there is no education,

there are a lot of things to work on. Talking about one big issue that

affects not just Saudi Arabia at a lot of countries in Africa and Asia

and the Middle East, this issue of early nature. We have the head of

the Saudi human rights Council who is a member of the Shura Council,

who is a former executive director of the United Nations population

fund, and an influential voice in Les done a great deal of work in

this area. She has done and talked a lot about early marriage. There is a

big issue in Saudi Arabia, because legally, there is no minimum age for

marriage. In 2011, the Shura Council tried to restricted to 17 and above

to marry, but it has not passed in trouble at all. We know there are a

lot of girls in this country who are married off to men often decades

older than them -- passed into law. Yemen, Egypt, driving, they are

other countries. I don't have statistics because this is not

something I have been working on and following -- Jordan. The counsellors

in the Shura are working hard to issue a law to forbid marriage

before 17 years. Occasionally we get cases like in 2009 when there was

the age old girl who sought a divorce from a man in his 50s. That

case keep the headlines. I will give you an example from an academic from

university. He wrote at the media and said there were 5622 reported

cases of brides in Saudi Arabia under 14. Just reported cases, so

the numbers will be much higher. You need to make a song and dance about

that. You need to talk about that as women. That is my fight. This will

go on in Jeddah. You are a prominent Saudi women. You cannot carry all of

the fight. You have to focus on the positive vibes as well not just the

negative fights. Saudi Arabia is developed, and we have our

challenges and we are still issuing a lot of NGOs. When you talk about

lobbying and advocacy, we are still needing NGOs to provide good

performance. Just looking at the issues, you said earlier about the

interpretations of Islam, and again it has been talked about practices

bound up with religion and culture. She thinks to highlight the

selective use of Scripture is not something she accepts. While the

profits wife was young -- profit's, and to justify what is now known as

child marriage, his first wife was older than him when they were

married, and she was working for her. She is saying don't be

selective. Yes. Due a great? Of course. This is what happens with

people who try to be selective and just copy and paste the things they

want either from the first Iraq war or the Crown. -- Sharia all the

Koran. We are having issues with them mixing the laws. We have people

driving, mixing office, lots of issues. I have a quote from the

foreign editor of a newspaper very widely read in the Arab world, and

she is also writing a book about Saudi women. She says, Saudi women

need to know that they are the change. They have to demand it. It

will not be given to them by their male counterparts. In fact, women

are the change in the kingdom. Do you agree with that? I totally agree

with that. That women are the change. Yes. I totally agree with

that. I don't know exactly why, but in the last 20 years, if you look at

the history of Saudi women, we have moved really fast. 50 years ago, we

had no women in education and healthcare, no use in women in

different fields, different sectors, and I'm sure we will see a woman

minister and so on -- you see. All of these things came after the

goodwill of education. We need to work for more women in Parliament.

But we also need to have a good knowledge transfer from the men, our

counterparts. Segregation for the last few years led to immaturity

sometimes. I always tell women they need to talk into mini cake with

men. The way you talk like a woman, men will not accept you in the

workforce. You need to look and think like men. Really? You think

women should be more confrontational? It depends on the

situation. Not in all cases. It depends on the situation. We need to

trust yourself and your ability and to have the full information of the

fight you are working for. If you believe women are the change in the

kingdom as suggested, do you think if women in Saudi Arabia to gain

greater freedoms, more rights, that can also bring greater civic, social

and even political freedoms for all citizens, regardless of gender? I

think, yes, I mean, the Saudi size Seiji is very active. -- society.

You can see in social media, and with this new law for NGOs, and the

government is pushing for this. If you look at the new plan for the

transformation of one of the key educators, it is social justice and

women participating in the workforce. I think they know women

are the key for all of these social changes in society. Instead of women

in Saudi Arabia being seen as these oppressed, downtrodden members of

society who can't drive and all the rest of it, you say they could

actually be in the vanguard of greater civic, social, political

freedoms for everybody? They are already there. But society doesn't

see it. People here are highlighting the elections and how it has moved

forward and is a good and bright future, if you look at the last

seven years, we have been working with council. Maybe not under a

legitimate umbrella, but we have executed so many fights. Even the

council is to take our advice. We just need to highlight these

achievements. Rasha Hefzi, thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk.

Thank you. There are a couple of quiet days

on the horizon.