Rasha Hefzi - Jeddah Municipal Council, Saudi Arabia HARDtalk


Rasha Hefzi - Jeddah Municipal Council, Saudi Arabia

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Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to HARDtalk with Zeinab Badawi from the Saudi Arabians city

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of Jeddah. My guest is Saudi businesswoman Rasha Hefzi. She is

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one of 21 women who was elected to a municipal council in Saudi Arabia in

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what were seen -- in what was seen as a huge step forward for women.

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But was it? Rasha Hefzi, welcome to HARDtalk.

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Thank you. History was made in Saudi Arabia in December last year when

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women were allowed to stand and vote in elections for the first time

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ever. How can you be sure that represents progress? Well, as you

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said, this was the first time for women to take a decision by being a

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voter and candidate. It was the first time for us to carry the load

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of our city, Jeddah. So yes, it is history being made by women and

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everybody. How are you finding it serving on the council in Jeddah?

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You have had some problems, haven't you? It is very challenging. Saudi

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Arabia is a very complicated society. You have people from

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different backgrounds, schools of thought and ideologies and trying to

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compromise and just have a common ground with all these counsellors

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with you in the Council, and representing the problems of your

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city is really challenging. Albright. So you another counsellor

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here in Jeddah, the idea was that you attended the monthly council

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meetings where everybody gets together but you have to sit behind

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an opaque glass panel. You and your partner refused to do so and said,

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no, we want to sit at the table with our fellow male counsellors and some

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of the men refused and it caused a huge problem. Briefly describe what

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happened? Let me first talk about the table come out why we all sit at

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one table. It represents that we are all sharing the decision, we are

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sharing representation of the public and the citizens and we know that if

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we don't sit at one table, we won't be able to share in the decision, or

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share everything else like the workshops, and field visits, meeting

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stakeholders and citizens. As you know, and as I mentioned, Saudi

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Arabia is a very diverse society and some people have issues in

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understanding why it is important for women to be with them at the

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same table. Maybe they see this is not except the bolt to them, so we

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do accept that, but of course we have to let our voice be heard and

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represent our point of view. You are not worried? Because you have

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actually received anonymous death threats for wanting to sit at the

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tame table -- same table. It's not true. We received rejections from

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people that say they think we should not sit at one table and that is

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their point of view. From different cities from the Kingdom, but there

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were no threats. You have not had any opposition? No. Anonymously or

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otherwise? Opposition, yes? People were expressing their point of

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view. And how did they do that? They think it is against the norm and

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this is not how we should do meetings. They were mentioning that

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in every other government entity, there is zero segregation between

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men and women and they think they should be applied in all government

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entities like the council 's. And do you reply to these criticisms? Of

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course. We are following the government statements and you can

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see all of the counsellors, men and women, are sitting together in one

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room. That is the advisory board to the government. Yes. That his

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appointment only. Absolutely. I will just give you one example of a

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conservative Saudi voter in the elections in December. Standing

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outside a polling station in the capital, Riyadh, he was quoted by

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the Associated Press by saying, women's role is at home raising a

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family. If we allow the house to to do such business, who is going to

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take care of my son 's? I assume he has no daughters, but anyway. That

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is a perspective and a point of view and we respect that because he

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represents a big portion of society. At the end of the day, you have the

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majority, the minority, who are affecting the decision. A big ratio

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of society or the biggest? A big ratio. Not the biggest? I don't have

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the numbers, there is no accurate study on this. Why do you think

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there is a big section of society, although you don't have any idea how

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many, who are opposed to women having such a public role? Because

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there are many Muslim countries all over the world where you have had

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women in positions of power? Benazir Bhutto in Pakistan, the Prime

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Minister of Bangladesh, we have had a woman president in Indonesia. All

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over the Muslim world you do see women in very powerful positions.

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The most powerful positions. But not in Saudi Arabia. Not politically.

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Yeah. We are still in the stages of development with these women to hold

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such positions. We have the step of appointing a woman in the advisory

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Council, we had the first vice president of the board in the

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Chamber of Commerce. And we do now have a culture and commercial cachet

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although I'm not sure of the name. But what I'm trying to say, what we

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are facing right now is a blend between the misinterpretation of

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religion and the norm. Or, let's say the culture background. Segregation

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will affect the perspective of women's participation in public

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life. What you mean about the misinterpretation of religion? You

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mean that there is a very conservative form of Islam here in

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Saudi Arabia? Wahabi Islam? Which is the more puritanical form, more so

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than you seen other countries? I'm not to talk about Wahabi is some,

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let's talk about driving which has been rejected by a large subsection

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of society. Many supported two are not extremists, who are not

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conservative. Much of the time it can be a cultural norm, a cultural

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understanding or have it. At the same time, we may be misinterpreting

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parts of the Koran based on the way they were raised. The issue of

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driving is often seen in the international arena as a very good

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example of why women are discriminated against in Saudi

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Arabia. And it is baffling, isn't it, that a woman cannot drive? I

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think we have a very strict government. In not letting you

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drive? I think we have to consider the ability of society to consider

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it. There's nothing in the law against it, but the readiness of

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society will play a key role in implementing that decision. A woman

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driving has been accepted by a ratio of society, I don't also have an

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accurate number for this, but also by a big ratio society. I think we

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are ready and the government should follow suit. Any idea when that

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might be? I don't know, really. Sometimes you see things moving very

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fast and some parts are taking a longer time. Maybe we are moving

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slowly but surely. But on this issue of driving, I want to turn it

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slightly on its head because it is a focus point for many people when it

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comes to talk about women's rights but frankly, is it the most

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important issue for many women in Saudi Arabia? A lot of them cannot

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even afford to purchase a car. Yes, driving is a very important issue.

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Even if you are a businesswoman. It is? Of course. If you have lots of

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appointments and meetings and so on, it is an important issue. We have

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many issues on the table and driving is one of them. I cannot say which

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one is the priority. But it is a concern of the lead to, however

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wealthy they might be. A survey conducted in 2014 by a charitable

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foundation looking at poverty, particularly in female-headed

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households, found that nearly 59% of underprivileged Saudi women live in

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dilapidated homes and they often support households with a monthly

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income of about 400 US dollars a month. And they have very little

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means of trying to support themselves. This is a priority to

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me. I am fighting for women's issues in low income neighbourhoods for

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people who have no education, no jobs. That is a priority to me. And

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I am sure driving is a priority for other ladies. The charity said the

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poor economic conditions of these women they surveyed, across 13

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regions of Saudi Arabia, shows that they need financial support from the

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country's social insurance scheme to live decently. They said the main

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issues are illiteracy, unemployment and the absence of relatives to

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support them. Absolutely. We hear lots about driving but not about

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these women. Absolutely and that is what I'm telling you. So much of the

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focus is on driving but we want our voices to be heard on other issues.

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Access to healthcare? Welfare, education, women in politics. Are

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the Saudi women ready to enter into politics? They need this kind of

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readiness and knowledge transfer and that is very important fight. Do you

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think women in Arabia are holding them back, to some extent? I will

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give you another example, the fact that women in Saudi Arabia cannot

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travel without either the permission or presence of a male relative. But

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an education Ministry spokesperson says, as a Saudi woman, I demand to

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have a guardian. My work necessitates go into different areas

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of Saudi Arabia and I always bring my husband or my brother. That

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his/her personal opinion. Is issue has been discussed also. Also in

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Islam, a guardian is usually with a woman who needs one but if I am a

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businesswoman and I'm travelling all around, why do I need a guardian? Do

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you think perhaps women are colluding their own repression, in a

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way, because they themselves will accept restrictions like that? Know,

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as I said, it is just the way they understand Islam and him except the

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Sharia with civic law -- mix up. There is a very high literacy rate

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with Saudi women, 90% of them are educated in their masters degrees

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and PhD 's but they only form 18% of the workforce in Saudi Arabia. There

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many degrees sitting at home just looking after the household which

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seems a bit of a waste. It is not only Saudi women, it is also Saudi

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men. We have been discussing, one of the development funds we have been

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working on for so long is the difference between education level

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than market needs. One of the options is to open different

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education centres for women in different fields. But do you think

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that, with women being restricted in the kind of workplace that they can

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occupy and so on, and the need for segregation, that that really does

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act like a constraint? Segregation in public places and government

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offices is not an issue. We have been living with this for so long

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and we have been working and there is no problem. And it's acceptable?

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You are happy being separate? You want to be equal but separate is OK?

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Separation is not the issue. At the end of the day, it is your work to

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be done. If it was an obstacle to me getting my work done, it would be

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difficult but if I can execute my work and get results, there is no

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problem with segregation. When we talk about separation and

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segregation, you have to study and see the readiness of society to

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change that. So you believe, for example, there has been some talk of

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women being equal but perhaps they have to just operate in their own

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separate space? This idea being equal but separate is the way

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forward for Saudi women? Is It is not an example for

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everything. In some areas, separation is acceptable, but in

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some areas like healthcare businesses, you cannot have

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segregation or separation. It depends on the field, the city, the

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segregation in society itself in the workforce. When she says out of

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respect for our committee and culture, women have to be in their

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private space, and she advocates for women gaining skills so they can

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provide services to other women and so on. A lot of people have

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difficulty with that kind of segregated society. You don't? It

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depends on what you are comfortable with. Some women are comfortable

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with the segregation. I cannot work in segregation in my work because I

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am required to meet men and talk to them and interact with them. When I

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talk about the readiness and acceptance of society and the way

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they see things in their work. As a councillor in Jeddah, you have

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talked about how you go all over Jeddah and you go to areas which

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could be described as slum areas where there are Saudis living in

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great poverty, how engaged are you with the kind of issues that may

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arise in these places? How much of a champion are you? IMA champion, but

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I am very well-connected with the people in the slums and all-around

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Jeddah. I ran for office because I know the needs for the city, I am

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very well-connected with them, the percentage of Saudis in every area.

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You talk about non- Saudis. A country of 30 million, 10 million

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migrants and 20 million Saudis, the issue of migrant women, is that on

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your radar? We get regular reports of domestic abuse involving female

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migrant workers and that kind of Sting. Does anybody speak for them

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in Saudi Arabia? We have the human rights Association, and helpers for

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child abuse. For us, where we work in the slums and areas where we have

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this, Jeddah has two holy mosques. People come here all around the

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world. Imagine when you have a neighbourhood full of sometimes

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crime, problems, there is no implement, there is no education,

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there are a lot of things to work on. Talking about one big issue that

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affects not just Saudi Arabia at a lot of countries in Africa and Asia

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and the Middle East, this issue of early nature. We have the head of

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the Saudi human rights Council who is a member of the Shura Council,

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who is a former executive director of the United Nations population

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fund, and an influential voice in Les done a great deal of work in

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this area. She has done and talked a lot about early marriage. There is a

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big issue in Saudi Arabia, because legally, there is no minimum age for

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marriage. In 2011, the Shura Council tried to restricted to 17 and above

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to marry, but it has not passed in trouble at all. We know there are a

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lot of girls in this country who are married off to men often decades

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older than them -- passed into law. Yemen, Egypt, driving, they are

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other countries. I don't have statistics because this is not

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something I have been working on and following -- Jordan. The counsellors

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in the Shura are working hard to issue a law to forbid marriage

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before 17 years. Occasionally we get cases like in 2009 when there was

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the age old girl who sought a divorce from a man in his 50s. That

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case keep the headlines. I will give you an example from an academic from

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university. He wrote at the media and said there were 5622 reported

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cases of brides in Saudi Arabia under 14. Just reported cases, so

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the numbers will be much higher. You need to make a song and dance about

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that. You need to talk about that as women. That is my fight. This will

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go on in Jeddah. You are a prominent Saudi women. You cannot carry all of

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the fight. You have to focus on the positive vibes as well not just the

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negative fights. Saudi Arabia is developed, and we have our

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challenges and we are still issuing a lot of NGOs. When you talk about

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lobbying and advocacy, we are still needing NGOs to provide good

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performance. Just looking at the issues, you said earlier about the

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interpretations of Islam, and again it has been talked about practices

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bound up with religion and culture. She thinks to highlight the

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selective use of Scripture is not something she accepts. While the

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profits wife was young -- profit's, and to justify what is now known as

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child marriage, his first wife was older than him when they were

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married, and she was working for her. She is saying don't be

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selective. Yes. Due a great? Of course. This is what happens with

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people who try to be selective and just copy and paste the things they

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want either from the first Iraq war or the Crown. -- Sharia all the

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Koran. We are having issues with them mixing the laws. We have people

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driving, mixing office, lots of issues. I have a quote from the

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foreign editor of a newspaper very widely read in the Arab world, and

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she is also writing a book about Saudi women. She says, Saudi women

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need to know that they are the change. They have to demand it. It

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will not be given to them by their male counterparts. In fact, women

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are the change in the kingdom. Do you agree with that? I totally agree

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with that. That women are the change. Yes. I totally agree with

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that. I don't know exactly why, but in the last 20 years, if you look at

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the history of Saudi women, we have moved really fast. 50 years ago, we

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had no women in education and healthcare, no use in women in

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different fields, different sectors, and I'm sure we will see a woman

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minister and so on -- you see. All of these things came after the

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goodwill of education. We need to work for more women in Parliament.

:21:41.:21:46.

But we also need to have a good knowledge transfer from the men, our

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counterparts. Segregation for the last few years led to immaturity

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sometimes. I always tell women they need to talk into mini cake with

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men. The way you talk like a woman, men will not accept you in the

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workforce. You need to look and think like men. Really? You think

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women should be more confrontational? It depends on the

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situation. Not in all cases. It depends on the situation. We need to

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trust yourself and your ability and to have the full information of the

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fight you are working for. If you believe women are the change in the

:22:25.:22:29.

kingdom as suggested, do you think if women in Saudi Arabia to gain

:22:30.:22:34.

greater freedoms, more rights, that can also bring greater civic, social

:22:35.:22:42.

and even political freedoms for all citizens, regardless of gender? I

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think, yes, I mean, the Saudi size Seiji is very active. -- society.

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You can see in social media, and with this new law for NGOs, and the

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government is pushing for this. If you look at the new plan for the

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transformation of one of the key educators, it is social justice and

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women participating in the workforce. I think they know women

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are the key for all of these social changes in society. Instead of women

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in Saudi Arabia being seen as these oppressed, downtrodden members of

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society who can't drive and all the rest of it, you say they could

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actually be in the vanguard of greater civic, social, political

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freedoms for everybody? They are already there. But society doesn't

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see it. People here are highlighting the elections and how it has moved

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forward and is a good and bright future, if you look at the last

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seven years, we have been working with council. Maybe not under a

:23:50.:23:53.

legitimate umbrella, but we have executed so many fights. Even the

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council is to take our advice. We just need to highlight these

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achievements. Rasha Hefzi, thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk.

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Thank you. There are a couple of quiet days

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on the horizon.

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