Haley Barbour - Former chairman, Republican National Committee HARDtalk


Haley Barbour - Former chairman, Republican National Committee

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Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Stephen Sackur.

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I'm in Washington DC to talk to a former chairman of the Republican

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With every passing week the race for the Republican Party's

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presidential nomination becomes more bizarre and increasingly bitter.

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According to one Republican senator the fact that Donald Trump and

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Ted Cruz are the two leading candidates is proof

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What is happening to the Republicans?

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Haley Barbour, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. You have spent all of

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your addled life inside the Republican Party, can you remember

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your party ever being in as big of a mess as it is in right now -- adult?

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No wind I have been doing it since 1968, I read Oh! -- I dropped out of

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college and worked for Richard Nixon and I have been involved in every

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presidential campaign since then and I have never seen anything like

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this. How did it happen? How did it get to a point where Donald Trump

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who is the front-runner of the Republican Party is disapproved of

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by 77% of the American people and to the most immediate challenge or, Ted

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Cruz, has a disapproval rating of 60% -- challenger? Hillary Clinton

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has a disapproval rating of the majority of Americans as well and it

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is because most Americans are mad and many of them are scared. They

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are mad on a bipartisan basis. If you look at polling, there is a

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typical question of polling in the United States, asking whether the

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country is going in the right direction or the wrong direction and

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64% over the past few years have said it is going the wrong

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direction. That is the average today. Only about 30% of Americans

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are Republicans, so it is not just Republicans, it is independents and

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Democrats and it is based on conditions in the country. This is

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the weakest recovery since World War Two. The more you talk about the

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alienation, the anger and the economic underperformance, the more

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I am thinking, if after eight years of an incumbent Democrat, the

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Republican Party must have their moment of golden opportunity, so how

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come your two leading candidates, Donald Trump and Ted Cruz seem to be

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so toxic to so many Americans? To quote Senator Lindsey Graham who I

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am sure you know pretty well, he says, forgive my language here, he

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says the party has gone bad ship crazy -- batshit. An old friend of

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mine said he can't make heads or tails of this but it looks like

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every time he turned on the television, all he saw were the

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tales. That is many Americans are saying today -- that is what. Why is

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that? Naughton the people who are advancing set themselves up as

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outsiders and conservative media has become much more involved in the

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campaigns and in political process. There has been a divide established,

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conservatives tend to watch conservative news. Normally you

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would think those conservative outlets would be attacking the

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Democrats for bad performance but instead they are saying the

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Republicans sold out, the Republicans surrendered. That is

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exactly what they are saying. And may I say, you represent that party

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establishment. You were a 2-term governor in Mississippi, you were

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chair of the Republican national committee, if I may put it this way,

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you are one of the big beasts of your party and it is precisely you

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and your ilk that Donald Trump and Ted Cruz have the -- say have

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betrayed the Republican Party. I don't take the blame for what

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Congress does or doesn't do. In the 90s you ran the party for a while,

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you were the chairman. That's right and we won the first Republican

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majority in 40 years. But your point, many Republican governors are

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very popular. Republicans in state governor have huge job approval. It

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is Washington. And one of the reasons they have such low approval

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appear is because the conservative media, much less than the liberal

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media, doesn't say the Republican has passed 300 bills in the last

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amount of time or that it takes 60 votes to get a bill to the floor of

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the Senate and there are only 54 Republicans. There was a time when

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conservative publications, of which there were few when I was starting

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the business, would write, the Republicans are doing their dog Oh!

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-- job, but they are being stopped in their tracks by Democrats. Today

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it is that the Republicans are not trying hard enough. But they don't

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have the votes. You worked for Ronald Reagan for a while and he

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successfully reached out to the blue-collar, working-class

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Americans. Many of them Democrats. And he wrought them into the

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so-called Reagan coalition but ever since the Republican Party appears

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to have failed to reach out to ordinary working and white Americans

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as well as minorities -- brought. And the one thing Donald Trump

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appears to be able to do is to tap into the white working-class.

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Unquestionably, that has been something that he has done and it is

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a positive for the party. It is positive but it is not dispositive

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because while we are adding some people, and that is good, there are

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many people who are very concerned about Donald Trump for various

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reasons. He's 12 points behind Clinton, many think he cannot win

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and something he may cost us the Senate but the other big thing is,

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what will he do? He is not well-known to Republicans at the

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grassroots level. Proposals are all over the lot. He's not like Ronald

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Reagan. I will tell you something about Ronald Reagan, who I did work

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for. He was hugely successful because he knew how to compromise

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with the Democrats and get things done. That is why five out of seven

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elections have been won following Ronald Reagan by Republicans.

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Because they got things done. But that is the dealmaking compromise

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based politics that people like Ted Cruz say is that the trail -- a

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betrayal of everything that Republicans should stand for. But

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those candidates... Virtually every other candidate wants to be like

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Ronald Reagan. And bring forward his economic plan and the tax reform.

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They were all passed when we had big Democrat majorities in house and

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Ronald Reagan knew how to get done. The biggest anger in our party

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today, the biggest contention is not over policy but over tactics. That

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is what Ted Cruz has complained about. Remember he led the shutdown

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of the government in 2013 which cost us the Virginia's governors race. We

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would have won but it came right in the aftermath of the government

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shutdown. Republicans don't like to shop the government down because

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there are all kind of Republicans who understand that the government

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has some functions that are necessary. This is what Ted Cruz

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says about you. He says, the big businesses and lobbyists to get in

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bed with career politicians do nothing but grow government and who

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is left off that list? At the American taxpayer. You are the

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archetypal politician turned lobbyist and Ted Cruz and his like

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have had enough of you. Actually Stephen, I was a lobbyist turned

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politician, just so you can get the chronology right. You made a lot of

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money by lobbying and you have had a long political career as well but

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the point is, you're kind of politics is not the kind of politics

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that fires up the Republican base today. What the Republican base

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wants is a performance toward success and they haven't got it from

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this administration. They don't want a guy which represents the

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Washington political machine and that is you. Donald Trump and Ted

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Cruz are outsiders and you are the insiders. And insiders have had

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their day it seems. Ted Cruz is anything but an outsider. Donald

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Trump is also anything but. He talks about how he has given money to

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politicians constantly and I think all of that is made up. He says he's

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contributed to the Republican Governors Association but they have

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never ask for anything. I have not seen that side of Donald Trump but

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let's not act like he has not been a part of the way Everman works in New

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Jersey or New York or Washington, DC -- government. If he wins the

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nomination, will be back in and support him and work for him?

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Whoever the Republicans nominate I will support. If it is Donald Trump,

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no matter who it is, I will support them. Really? Absolutely. Any one of

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our candidates would be better than Obama having a third term under the

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auspices of Hillary Clinton. Even if you agree with Senator Lindsey

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Graham who says that Donald Trump is a race baiting xenophobic bigot who

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would be an absolute disaster for our party and would destroy

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conservativism as we know it and we would get wiped out. You would still

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support that? Let me make a point. I don't agree with Lindsey Graham on

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all of that. I don't want you to misinterpret my answer. You support

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building a wall to Mexico in making Mexicans pay for it and banning all

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Muslims coming into the country? That isn't what you said Lindsey

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Graham said. What he said was... I don't agree with Lindsey Graham on

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that. He said Donald Trump with a race baiting xenophobic bigot and he

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is of course alluding to the policies which include building a

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wall with Mexico and making the Mexicans pay for it. And we know how

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he described the Mexicans are coming to the United States. He also said

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he was going to ban Muslims from travelling to the United States of

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America. That is what Lindsey Graham was alluding to. Do you support

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those policies? I am for immigration reform but because I think we need

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to get back to the legal immigration and put a stop to illegal

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immigration and I think most Republicans agree with me on that.

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They don't go out and yell about building a wall or whatever. But we

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have to secure the border. We also have to have a good legal

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immigration system. But I want to go back to the question you asked me

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which triggered all of this. Why would I support Donald Trump?

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Because life is a series of choices and get the choice is Donald Trump

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or Hillary Clinton, I will go for Donald Trump. Let's talk about other

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things he has said. He has said he is sick of America bankrolling and

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supporting Nato. He says it would be OK for Japan and South Korea to get

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their own nuclear weapons and maybe even Saudi Arabia as well. He is

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talking about fundamentally changing America's position in the world. I

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don't know whether you agree with those positions but if you don't,

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you are still saying he would support him because he is better

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than Hillary Clinton? As you say, who would you rather elect, a

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Republican or a Democratic nominee? It is not like some countries in the

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world where they have multiparty systems. One of the two of them is

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going to win and of the two, I think the country is in better hands, is

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safer, will make more progress if the Republican nominee wins over

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this is Clinton. Are you aware of how Donald Trump is seen around the

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rest of the world? I want to quote you a quote from Martin Woolford was

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respected economist for the Financial Times. He says the US is

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the greatest Republic syndrome, The Bastion democracy and the guarantor

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of liberal world order. It would be a global disaster if Donald Trump

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were to become president. That is the way many people around the world

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feel about what we are watching right now in this country. After

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watching the last eight years and what has happened to America's

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standing in the world, they should be worried that the standard is

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going to keep going in the wrong direction because it has sure been

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going the wrong direction the last eight years. I think a lot of what

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Donald Trump is saying is hyperbole and I remembered his book how he

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talked about how that can get you a long way but at the end of the day

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you have to be able to close the deal with substance. A lot of the

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hyperbole I think is way off the mark. But I will support him or

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whoever wins our nomination against a third term for Obama and failed

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policies. You have made that pretty clear so let's get to the detail of

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how this is going to unfold over the next few months. Nobody knows the

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Republican Party and its processes better than you do and we are

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looking at a convention in Cleveland in July where it may well be, given

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the way the vote count is going, that Donald Trump has not crossed

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the threshold and got those 1237 delegates signed up and pledged that

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he needs to get the nomination on the first vote. If he is not there,

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it will go to a second vote when many of those delegates become so

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called unbound, no longer tied to the guy they promised they would

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vote for in the first round. Can you see a scenario where Donald Trump

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has won the popular vote around the nation in the Republican primaries

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by two or 3 million votes and yet is deprived of the nomination?

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I worked for Ronald Reagan and in 19 semi six 1 million more votes and

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Gerald Ford in the primaries but Gerald Ford got the majority and he

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was a nominee for president and Ronald Reagan never whined or

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complained, and he never threatened to start riots. He knew what the

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rules when Andy play by the rules. The rules is that it takes the

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majority of the delegates to win the nomination. Period. Not the most.

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With all due respect, it has very little to do with Chrissy. Once you

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see... Well he calls it dirty and discussing politics when people try

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to persuade delegates to cross eyed and vote for someone who they were

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pledged to in the first place. It is not look like democracy because it

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looks like rye bread because they can free food and accommodation,

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they get goody bags and all sorts of things come into play. Just remember

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that delegates who were elected by state law, state structure are bound

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to vote for a candidate. They are required by the rules to vote for

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that candidate. In the first round. It depends on the state party.

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Florida is three rounds and most of them are one round. The rules

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suggest that if it comes to a third or fourth round vote it will get

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very dirty. Donald Trump is said if he doesn't get the nomination with

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the biggest number of votes he has spoken about riots and it is going

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to be bad, real bad. How worried are you about the chaos that could

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engulf your party? First of all, I think Donald Trump, or at least his

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team knows that that hurts him in winning people support. That does

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not help. To try to threaten and break the law. In the way that he

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has been treated in some of these events to be saying that after the

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way he has been treated, to me, is all the more unusual. Let me just

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say. In our party we have a variety of systems for electing delegates

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because we are the party that believes in the 10th Amendment state

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authority that the states get to make their rules and the National

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Party and enforce the state 's rules. I can understand if I was

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sitting in some way in the UK today, watching the Republican or

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Democratic nomination for president, I would think that this is the

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craziest and wildest thing. Remember, it has been four years

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since either party that has had a conviction that might go to a second

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ballot. It has been 60 years since we went to a second ballot. Nobody

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has done this. I've been doing this for 48 years and no one has seen a

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second ballot. We're probably going to see this this time around. I want

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to pin down with a fee you personally it would be a bigger

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problem for the party to go into the general election with Donald Trump

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or Ted Cruz? We haven't spoken a lot about Ted Cruz but there is no more

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unpopular Republican Senate at his own peers in the Republican Party

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then Ted Cruz. It is like picking your poison and which one would you

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pick? The big issue is that Ted Cruz is also behind Hillary Clinton in

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the poll. Party leaders whether they are the Washington establishment and

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I understand that who you don't like it who you vote for. You were the

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Washington establishment. The establishment is very slim. Is being

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a while since you made your money in Yahoo! City. You obviously care

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about your party and you thought about Ted Cruz and Donald Trump. Can

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you imagine a scenario where a third candidate, and you can visit, comes

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into the arena at the convention and actually gets the nomination? Things

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should happen before. .Com could get to 1237. If he does not it becomes

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three hard to him to stay up as high as he was. I think it probably goes

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down on the second ballot because they have not had a strong ground

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game and they have not worked hard about who got elected the delegates.

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Ted Cruz finishes second on the bow at and I think he might rise. But I

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don't think he will get to 1237. Could be the guy who finishes third

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or fourth or could be someone who has not run a full? Paul Ryan... I

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think he has made it very clear that he is not a candidate. Every one of

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those scenarios is at that scenario the Republican. Number one has 70%

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disapproval monthly American people. Number two is just not as

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well-known and has very high negatives for people who know him

:20:40.:20:45.

best. Number three, the guy who finishes third or fourth. Number

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four. What you are telling me is that your party is doomed. No, I'm

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not telling you that. We're not going to have a bump. The likelihood

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is that we will have a dip. But I remember 1976 when Ford was behind

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33 points and a week of the convention was over. A lot of Ronald

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Reagan supporters said they will not vote for him because their feelings

:21:16.:21:22.

were hurt. By up most of them were back helping Ford because they did

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not want Jimmy Carter. And let me tell you that Jimmy Carter was a

:21:26.:21:30.

walk in the park compared to Hillary Clinton in the eyes of Republican

:21:31.:21:35.

supporters. Thank goodness our convention is in July and will take

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so few weeks first to get over it when people start coming home.

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Gerald Ford lost by two points. Down 33 with a disastrous convention and

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lost by two points. I have not forgotten that and there is a lesson

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there. If you give me one name who is going to be the public and

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presidential nominee, who would be? I want a name. I respect you too

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much to lie to you. We've dug away the process and it is got to be,

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located and it is going to be ugly between now and July but surely

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there is a much bigger problem with all the mess of a presidential

:22:21.:22:26.

campaign. And that is this, increasingly your party looks

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completely out of touch with the way America is today. One fact that a

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majority of kids under the age of five years old in America today I'm

:22:36.:22:39.

nonwhite, but you look at the Republican Party and who they really

:22:40.:22:43.

speak to and for and it seems to be mostly male, mostly white, most

:22:44.:23:00.

rural and that certainly looks to be that way. That is the way Democrats

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picture at. Republicans think results determine election. Do

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Republicans it to work harder like Chris Christie did and get 51% of

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the Hispanic vote or Mitt Romney the year before had got 27? Definitely.

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You have to get your hands steady and do some things and is not all

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red rec and hyperbole. Or Ronald Reagan who was a great Conservative

:23:29.:23:33.

and flew on bold colours. He would be spinning in his grave if he saw

:23:34.:23:36.

what was happening in your party today. He really would because one

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of the things he would never do it he would never disrespect people he

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disagreed with. He understood that there are people who vote for me

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every time with me who disagree with me on staff, so you have to remind

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yourself that the person who disagrees with you 20% time is not

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80% a traitor. Purity is the enemy of the victory. We're going to end

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it here. Becky very much for being on HARDtalk -- thank you. Thank you

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Stephen. If you were lucky enough to have

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spring sunshine yesterday, you probably got some spring warmth

:24:44.:24:46.

as well. In fact, it was beautiful -

:24:47.:24:48.

warmest day of the year

:24:49.:24:52.

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