Browse content similar to Dr Mustafa Abushagur, Deputy Prime Minister Libya, 2011-2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The constitution requires at least three million signatures, | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
Welcome to HARDtalk. Over the last five years, the Libyan state has in | :00:00. | :00:24. | |
shattered into fragments. Now it has a UN backed government committed to | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
restoring unity. But the omens don't look good. The political scene is | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
confused. Multiple well-armed militias call the shots on the | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
streets. And the jihadists from the Islamic State pose a continued | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
threat. My guest is the former deputy minister, Mustafa Abushagur. | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
He backs the unity government. Is Libya beyond salvation? Mustafa | :00:51. | :01:19. | |
Abushagur, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Let's talk about what is | :01:20. | :01:27. | |
happening in Libya. In the past two months you have had a unity | :01:28. | :01:33. | |
government, the so-called National Accord. But the idea it is united, | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
your country, it is fantasy. For the time being, it is. But the | :01:40. | :01:48. | |
international court came a -- as a result of the dialogue as part of | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
the United Nations... You are part of that? Yes. It started in January | :01:55. | :02:06. | |
2015. It was a very long process. At the beginning, the parties who joins | :02:07. | :02:20. | |
that... What happened in 2014 we had a court in Libya and trippy oh | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
Tripoli. We had an election for the Parliament. They refused to hand | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
over to the new parliament. I don't want to get our audience to | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
confused. The bottomline is that for a long time you have had two | :02:36. | :02:42. | |
authorities both claiming legitimacy. A House of | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
Representatives that went off in the east of the country. They claimed | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
they were the legitimate authority. Now, thanks to the efforts of people | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
like you and the UN you have this new Prime Minister and unity | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
government sitting in Tripoli. But it is one thing putting this down on | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
paper and claiming to be uniting the country. For the past few months all | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
we have seen is fighting and military activity. There is no sense | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
that the new Prime Minister can actually impose his will. He is | :03:19. | :03:25. | |
starting to take the right steps towards that. We expected this would | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
be challenging. A challenging phase in the life of Libya. Having | :03:33. | :03:40. | |
agreed... When they come to Tripoli, the militias, we expected | :03:41. | :03:49. | |
they would refuse, like what happened in Benghazi. But it didn't | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
happen. Most of the army formations, militias, whatever we | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
call them, realise this is an opportunity for the country to move | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
forward. But the idea is that the Prime Minister does not control the | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
militias, they control him. He can sit in his heavily fortified navel | :04:10. | :04:16. | |
the as long as they let him. -- naval. But as we saw him arrived in | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
the city and wanted to come by air and couldn't and had to come by | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
boat, as we can see he doesn't call the shots. Things have changed. He | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
has the backing from the international community. That made | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
clear this is the legitimate government. Now he can control the | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
money. If he can control that he will eventually be able to control | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
the militias. I tell you what, in Libya right now I would rather have | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
the guns than the money and he doesn't control them. He does not. | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
Let's be realistic and not talk fantasy. One of the things that, | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
apart from the guns, that he doesn't control, is still this House of | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
Representatives elected in 2014 sitting in Tobruk. In theory, | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
according to the documents you worked on, it still the legitimate | :05:09. | :05:17. | |
Parliament. -- is still. They refused to return and make this new | :05:18. | :05:26. | |
Prime Minister. In a sense they still hold power. -- legitimise. It | :05:27. | :05:37. | |
has been approved by the house -- House of Representatives. But not | :05:38. | :05:44. | |
the majority. What happened, this is February 23, to vote on the | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
government, after he presented it to the Parliament, on that day we are | :05:51. | :05:57. | |
ready to vote for the government. We have 102 at a 192. -- out of. | :05:58. | :06:06. | |
Unfortunately we could not hold the session because the president of the | :06:07. | :06:14. | |
House of Representatives, the speaker, refused to have a session. | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
They turned the lights off on us. This is Libya all over. Your Prime | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
Minister cannot even command the respect of the Speaker of the | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
House. Frankly, you say it doesn't matter, we have the support of | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
parliament, but you don't. It hasn't rubberstamped this new government. | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
Not in a conventional way. But we moved out of this hall and we, the | :06:41. | :06:52. | |
102 of us, signed a new treaty. That is a deeply Libyan solution. Of | :06:53. | :07:00. | |
course. It isn't sustainable. Let's move on to something more profoundly | :07:01. | :07:07. | |
problematic. The role of perhaps the most important military general in | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
Libya today, Khalifa. He controls the loyalty of many, he calls it the | :07:14. | :07:24. | |
Libyan National Army. It is a potent military force in the east of the | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
country. He, just the other day, gave a television interview in which | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
he described this unity national accord government as quote unquote | :07:33. | :07:40. | |
nonsense. -- National Accord. Of course. He realises that if there is | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
a national government he will have nothing to do. He formed a militia. | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
At the time he had no legitimacy whatsoever. He decided to come and | :07:50. | :07:58. | |
attack Benghazi to fight terrorism as a military chief. There is only | :07:59. | :08:09. | |
one government that existed when he started. Not two. He attacked on | :08:10. | :08:28. | |
Ghazi. -- on Benghazi. This person says to the Libyan people that we | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
are the legitimate military force in this country. To quote his recent | :08:32. | :08:39. | |
interview, we will not leave one part of Libya alone. He believes he | :08:40. | :08:48. | |
is the force that can unify Libya. A man with weapons and men and the | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
will. He sees himself as Batman. Of course he sees himself as that way. | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
He sees himself as the inheritor of Gaddafi. But 75% of the country does | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
not accept him. The population of Brazil. He tried before that and was | :09:06. | :09:20. | |
rejected. Sorry to interrupt. Do you see him as a war criminal? The old | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
government did to be one of his old staff who recently left his service, | :09:25. | :09:31. | |
Muhamed, says he has been using secret paramilitary forces to carry | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
out abductions, killings and the headings. Would you like to see him | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
put on trial? Yes. He committed crimes. This is his Luton and, he is | :09:40. | :09:46. | |
speaker, and it is clear he did all of this. -- lieutenant. We know he | :09:47. | :09:53. | |
did this. It is clear from the trials. But Khalifa has the most | :09:54. | :10:02. | |
coherent military force in Libya today. When you say the man is | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
possibly a war criminal and needs to be trialled for alleged war crimes, | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
it says to me that yet again here is a very deep hole that Libya is about | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
to fall in... No. If you look at the Libyan army there is more than | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
100,000 throughout the country and listed. -- enlisted. The number who | :10:24. | :10:30. | |
would follow him would not accede a few hundred. I don't think so. -- go | :10:31. | :10:41. | |
over a few. Most of those people have been trained for like two | :10:42. | :10:48. | |
weeks. They would die in the hundreds and thousands in a battle. | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
I would hate to see any one of them being killed. They are being killed | :10:54. | :11:00. | |
every day. Unfortunately. You have talked about Benghazi where the | :11:01. | :11:02. | |
fight is very active. But perhaps the most important frontline, | :11:03. | :11:11. | |
especially with Western powers looking on, the most important line | :11:12. | :11:18. | |
is Sirte, where Islamic State has a stronghold. And then on the other | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
side you have Khalifa encircling the city. And then another side the | :11:24. | :11:30. | |
Muslim Brotherhood, some related to the government in Tripoli. It seems | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
there is a race to liberate Sirte from Islamic State. But that is not | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
going to necessarily make Libya's problems any less serious. You will | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
have a huge fight between the different militias. The real fight | :11:46. | :11:52. | |
is not going on in Sirte, it is going between the council he has | :11:53. | :12:02. | |
formed made out of military officers and others. It has gone on for... | :12:03. | :12:09. | |
They look more loyal to themselves than the Prime Minister. Let's leave | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
that aside. The West wants to believe that somehow it can help | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
Libyan forces liberate Sirte from Islamic State. They are worried | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
about Islamic State's strength, obviously. Obviously. Do you think | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
the West should be arming these different forces that are trying to | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
take on Islamic State? Would that be wise? Islamic State is a danger to | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
Libya and the world. Obviously. Again, though, it has to be unified | :12:41. | :12:49. | |
under the government of National Accord and needs support from the | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
international committee. But there is no point in talking fantasy. They | :12:53. | :13:01. | |
are not united, those trying to take on Islamic State. John Kerry said | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
the other day that we must do everything we can to confront | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
Islamic State in Libya. So, would be West be wise to lift its arms | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
embargo and send arms to the various different militias and fighters who | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
are confronting Islamic State in Libya today? Those they are | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
confronting, at least from the West's diet, they are under the | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
leadership and have accepted the leadership. -- side. They will need | :13:30. | :13:40. | |
the support. They need training and logistics and intelligence. They are | :13:41. | :13:49. | |
getting that. I don't know Howard you feel as a Libyan knowing there | :13:50. | :13:52. | |
are hundreds, it seems, hundreds of Western special forces on Indian | :13:53. | :14:00. | |
soil today. -- how you feel. British, Australian, and Americans. | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
There is a group of them in the east and the West. They are intelligent | :14:07. | :14:13. | |
scattering and are helping them to defeat Islamic State. You want them | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
to go into Sirte alongside the Libyan fighters? | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
No, I just want them to provide support and I don't expect the | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
Americans or British or Italians to fight this fight. What are they | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
going to do? Sit on the site and watch? Clearly help with planning, | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
intelligence, training for the people who can fight. It seems to | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
me, and I think the man appointed by the Prime Minister to be your | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
Foreign Minister, has said that the problem so often in Libya over the | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
last five years is that the West has looked through a very | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
self-interested prison when it addresses Libya's problems. -- | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
prism. It worries about Islamic State and migration, but it doesn't | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
really consider the needs of Libya as a nationstate. Do you think | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
that's a fair criticism? I don't think it is accurate. I think | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
there's a lot of interest from international community. A stable | :15:23. | :15:25. | |
Libya can clearly help stabilise the whole region. About the time Libya | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
is in the background of Europe and any problems in Libya, especially | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
instability, can spill over to Europe. Even Barack Obama recently | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
in a interview said that one of his greatest regrets was the failure of | :15:40. | :15:41. | |
American and Western policy in Libya. He said the Brits got | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
distracted, the French got distracted, we got distracted and we | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
never followed through after toppling Gaddafi. Because they | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
thought it would be easier for the Libyans to deal with it, not of | :15:55. | :15:57. | |
course we still have the legacy of Gaddafi. So there was no plan for | :15:58. | :16:07. | |
after, too, and help the Libyans build institutions. -- to help. So | :16:08. | :16:16. | |
they thought as long as they brought Gaddafi downed the next step would | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
be easy. What would a coherent Western strategy toward Libya today | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
look like? I think it is coherent in the sense that they need to put a | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
lot of effort and help in building these institutions and help us fight | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
against Daesh. This is essential. We have serious problems in the | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
country. When Gaddafi fell the whole country collapsed. That's why when | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
we don't have institutions we can't execute any of these plans. So a lot | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
of training needs to be done, a lot of help by expertise that need to be | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
in bedded with the Libyan institutions to be able to help us | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
to overcome. It is chicken and egg. It is. I come back to the general | :17:00. | :17:07. | |
who hangs over this conversation because of his military strength, at | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
least in the east of your country. He says, forget about all this talk | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
of political rebuilding, of dialogue and institutions. Until we've won | :17:16. | :17:22. | |
the war. So he says military solution first and only then can we | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
really talk about rebuilding the political stability of the country. | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
There's no military solution for Libya. He can't win a war in Libya. | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
I know that's what he thinks he will be able to do. Because clearly... | :17:37. | :17:42. | |
Because the east after the revolution was very different from | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
the West. The revolution in the east last few days and then after that | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
came stable. The West took about six months, so that's why it happened | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
that a lot of these militias have been formed during that. So the | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
general cannot take over. There would be a massacre. So really the | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
only solution is a political solution. He needs to be part of the | :18:07. | :18:15. | |
solution, how we can achieve... So despite the fact that earlier you | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
said you would like to see him on trial for war crimes, you think he | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
has to be part of the solution? Clearly we cannot just remove him by | :18:22. | :18:30. | |
decision. He will not go. But the solution that we need to do, I mean | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
where he gets his support? Who is supporting him? We know who it is. | :18:36. | :18:43. | |
It is coming through Egypt, other neighbouring countries. Some of the | :18:44. | :18:52. | |
Gulf states. Yes. Clearly they are supporting him and they have | :18:53. | :18:55. | |
supported him continuously, even there is a numb argot in Libya. | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
Unless those countries. Really intervening in Libya there will be a | :19:02. | :19:10. | |
problem. -- will cease intervening. Let's talk about migration. You are | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
the jumping off point for a lot of people from other parts of Africa | :19:16. | :19:18. | |
who want to get into Europe, but also there are many Libyans who want | :19:19. | :19:21. | |
to escape from your country because the situation is so dire. The | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
economy is in meltdown and we have all of this violence as well. The | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
agency Interpol has just said that they believe there may be up to | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
800,000 would be migrants waiting in Libya to try and make the crossing | :19:37. | :19:38. | |
into Europe. That's an extra ordinary number. Do you think that's | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
right? If they are waiting outside of Libya that is different, but I | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
know there are a lot of them in Libya, the hundreds of thousands... | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
I think the implication is a lot of these people are Libyan. There are | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
many who want to get out. There are. If you look at the Libyans in the | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
east or the West, they are looking to leave, but there are economic | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
problems that are facing the Libyan people, especially with liquidity | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
and so on... Your banks are running out of cash, your food prices are | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
spiralling. Basically, because the oil output is down by two thirds at | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
least, the oil price is plummeting. The IMF says he will run out of | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
money by 2019. Your economy is totally collapsed. That's why we | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
need a political solution so we can bring the country back to stability | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
and bring back the production of oil to before 2013. And to face these | :20:39. | :20:46. | |
problems. There is no military solution and that's why those who | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
try to have military solution it's not going to happen. That will bring | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
us into civil war, because neither the forces in the West or East can | :20:54. | :21:01. | |
win this war. We talked about the West's role in helping you fight IS, | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
but just to finish up on the migration point, it seems to be odd | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
that the European Union naval operation, which is trying to | :21:11. | :21:13. | |
control migration from Libya and the north African coast, isn't allowed | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
into Libyan waters. Why would you let the naval vessels into your | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
waters? The government had -- has to decide that. Why are they allowed | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
now? What are they going to do? Are they going to shoot them all rescue | :21:31. | :21:33. | |
them? They are going to bring them back to go back to your country. | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
That causes a lot of problems. So you aren't prepared to co-operate | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
with the EU? And did you want support? We are willing to | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
co-operate, but the solution for this immigration problem is | :21:48. | :21:50. | |
protecting the Libyan country's borders. We need help to do that. | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
This problem has been for a long time. The numbers are now much | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
bigger, but why those people are coming? Because they are suffering. | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
So there needs to be an international solution to this | :22:06. | :22:08. | |
problem to bring some development to those nations that people will stay | :22:09. | :22:16. | |
in their country. But right now it is criminals using these people. I | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
wonder if there's element in your country, and maybe senior | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
politicians such as yourself, that sees the migration problem as useful | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
leverage. You can almost threaten, blackmail, Western powers, to say | :22:30. | :22:32. | |
unless you help us more all of these people will leave Libya. The point | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
is we can't control it. It is not a threat towards the West. It is a | :22:37. | :22:44. | |
problem. Those people sit in Libya until they get enough money to pay | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
the fee to jump in those boats, where the chance of survival is very | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
small. They are committing crimes, causing problems, so really we are | :22:54. | :23:00. | |
facing the first wave of those immigrants and the problems we are | :23:01. | :23:02. | |
having. We've talked a lot about problems. We have to end now. He | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
spoke about some of the Libyans want to leave the country. You took the | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
decision after years in the US to come back in 2011. Are you reaching | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
the point where you are beginning to think it isn't working and you have | :23:17. | :23:19. | |
to get out? I still have hope. I came back to Libya because I was for | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
more than 30 years against Gaddafi and ice or a chance for Libya to | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
become a civilised state, a democratic state, a prosperous | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
country. There are many like me to do whatever it takes to bring hope | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
back to the people and I think there's a chance. You still have | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
hope? I still do. Well that's a good way to end. Dr Mustafa Abushagur, | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
they give very much for being on HARDtalk. Thank you. -- thank you | :23:49. | :23:54. | |
very much. On Wednesday we had a number | :23:55. | :24:11. | |
of heavy showers affecting England Thanks to this low pressure, | :24:12. | :24:13. | |
this area of cloud, | :24:14. | :24:17. |