Admiral William McRaven, Former Commander of US Special Forces HARDtalk


Admiral William McRaven, Former Commander of US Special Forces

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Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi. No boots on the ground is

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often heard in discussions about western interventions but President

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Obama has committed to sending many more US special forces to Syria.

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What is their role and do they operate under different rules from

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conventional forces? My guest is Admiral William McRaven, who was

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commander of US special operations, he is also the man who prepared the

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mission that killed Osama Bin Laden five years ago.

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Admiral William McRaven, in Texas, welcome to HARDtalk. In a nutshell,

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what makes special forces special? Well, they are special by virtue of

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the fact that our specially selected, specially trained and

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specially equipped. -- they are. I tell people that the special forces

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soldiers and marines are no braver, no more patriarch at, they just have

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a niche in terms of special operations and that they are

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specially selected to do a very difficult mission. That is what

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makes them unique from the broader forces. They operate in a more

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independent way. You are a former -- will former US captain Matt

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Gallagher said although Congress hold pursestrings decisions about

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individual missions at our special operations are not put before them

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for approval. There is less congressional oversight, is in

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there? No, I think it is a false narrative -- isn't there? There is

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probably more congressional oversight or special operations

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missions than conventional missions. Every special operations mission

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that happens in a theatre of war is managed by the war commander, so

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the... In Afghanistan it was managed by the manager there, at the same

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for Iraq. There are routine special operations that occur in a theatre

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of war. When emission occurs outside the theatre of war it goes up

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through the chain of command. In the US military, the secretary of

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defence, the president of the United States. There is a lot of oversight,

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certainly up the chain of command in the US military. And in a emission

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has -- if a emission has congressional oversight, or requires

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it, it gets it, so there is more congressional oversight of special

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operations missions. Let's look at what they do. Let's take the Middle

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East, Syria, President Obama announced there would be 250 more

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special forces, adding to the 50 already there -- a mission. And we

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also have some in Iraq. They are boots on the ground effectively, are

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they not? They certainly are. And do you think that as Matt Lee from

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associated press, when he said to US State Department spokesman John

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Kirby, in April when this was made, the point is he says for months and

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months the mantra from the President and everyone in the administration

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has been no boots on the ground, does he have a point? -- Associated

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Press. I don't want to talk about how the president presents the

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information. The fact is, when you have soldiers on the ground, in

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Syria or it up, you have boots on the ground -- Iraq. The distinction

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is what are the boots on the ground doing in terms of their mission,

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special operations missions? The narrative coming out of the White

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House and coming out of the US I think is consistent and has been

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consistent. The missions that the special operations forces do are

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very closely regulated up to the president of the United States. The

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point I ask you, you say these are boots on the ground, whereas a

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veteran journalist is saying that the mantra has been, from the Obama

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administration, no boots on the ground. So it would seem to suggest

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that you are saying that the Obama administration perhaps shouldn't be

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saying no boots on the ground, because that is what they are. I am

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not saying that at all. The fact is you have troops on the ground. So

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that fact is undeniable. The mission that these troops conduct is where

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you get into the debate. That is a debate for the president of the

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United States and the people of the United States to engage in. It is

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certainly not my place to make that call. What I can tell you is or

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missions conducted our and have careful oversight. -- are. Would you

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say they are involved in a combat role? The New York Times in December

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said American officials resort to linguistic contortion to mask the

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special forces' combat role. You cannot deny they are in combat. When

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people are shooting at you, and you are shooting back, then you are in a

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combat situation. So, they are in a combat situation? Certainly. Could

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they be doing more in a combat role in these countries that they go

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into, like Syria, Iraq? Well, I think they are doing a lot. I mean,

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you can see every day in the press the missions that special operations

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forces are conducting. I would add people believe it is only special

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operations forces. We refer to them as SOF, special operations forces.

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They are not alone. They have logistic support on the ground.

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Special operations forces cannot do these missions alone. There has to

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be a larger support network to help them out. So, you know, a lot of

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times people want to look at this as only special operations mission. It

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is a US military mission and with the support of a great coalition.

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Sure, but that approach has been criticised by, for example, senior

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respected defence analysts adviser who told us President Obama has not

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provided the resources and willingness to commit special forces

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in the forward areas where casualties are possible to allow

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them to be fully effective, and he has placed too many restrictions on

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support from other US land and air forces. Far too often he has

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selected options which do too little too late. Do you agree with him? I

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don't know him but what I will tell you is the president gets great

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advice from his commanders, from special operations command is the

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president gets great advice from his commanders, from special operations

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commanders on the ground. The advice they provide to the secretary of

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defence and the President is what he will follow. What you see right now

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in the campaign in Syria and Iraq come to rid them of ISIS, ISIL, I

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know it is a very well thought out plan. The President has been

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supportive of that. But do you think that the idea of sending in proper

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ground troops in a combat role, conventional forces, more special

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operations, is an idea that is gaining traction masse in one

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presidential debate in the US Ted Cruz said we need to put whatever

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ground power is needed -- traction? Donald Trump said, I will listen to

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US generals but I have heard numbers of 20,000 -30,000. We really have no

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choice. Again, I think, with all due respect to Senator Ted Cruz and

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Donald Trump, I think you need to go to the source, and the source is the

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commander of the US central command, the commander of US special

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operations command and the military chain of command which takes a very

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hard look at all of these missions. And I know they are providing the

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very best advice and counsel to the president of the United States and

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he is taking that advice and counsel. So I am not in a position

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to tell you exactly what the tactical situation looks like on the

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ground. So it is easy to sit back in the US and second guess a lot of

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these things. What I would tell you is the support the military forces

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are receiving from the White House and from the department of defence

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is the support they need to get the job done. But what would you be

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advising the Obama at administration if you were commander of special

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operations -- Department of Defence. -- Obama administration. You just a

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downer couple of years ago. Numbers, for instance, 300 250 in Syria,

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would you suggest more? What would you say it -- 300 to 50. Because I

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am out of uniform I am not prepared to answer. You have to know what the

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tactical situation is on the ground. A lot of the pundits who like to

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talk about how they would do things don't have an appreciation for

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exactly where ISIL is located, or for the support of the coalition, or

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an appreciation for what the military forces have on the ground

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and how they are doing business, so you have to be careful about making

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assumptions or prognostics about how to do things without the

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understanding of what's happening on the ground. You are at the

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University of Texas, you are in an academic role, talking to a lot of

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people, and I put to you what Donald Trump and Ted Cruz said, we've also

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had a public opinion poll which is CNN joint OIC, which says 53% of

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people in the States who would favour sending in ground troops like

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in Syria to stabilise the situation and take on Islamic State. From what

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you are hearing, is there are more of an appetite for this? After the

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Iraq War, costly in terms of money and lives, there was a diminished

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desire to see that kind of ground force go in? Well, what I know is

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the president of the United States and the secretary of defence and the

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entire national security apparatus in the US is committed to defeating

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ISIL. And so I think as you look at what is happening on the ground and

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whether we have the resources, the president and secretary of defence

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provide those resources, as military commanders are asking for it. So I

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do believe there is more of an appetite because when you begin to

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see the bombings in Paris and in Brussels you realise that ISIL's

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reach is probably broader than anticipated, and so the faster we

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eradicate and defeat them the better of the world will be. So this is not

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only something the president of the US understands, it is something the

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international coalition that is part of the effort in Syria and Iraq,

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they also understand. You said you believe that there is more of an

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appetite to send in ground troops. Would you say at it more about it?

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Could there be substantial numbers going into Syria, for instance? Yes,

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I won't let you pin me down, because the fact is, I don't know the

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tactical situation on the ground. So, what I know is that commanders

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are providing that information to the secretary of defence, to the

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president of the United States, collectively taking a hard look of

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this and making the best decisions they can. In terms of specific

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numbers I am not in a position to answer that question. When you

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stepped down in 2014 you said we are in the golden age of special

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operations. You pointed out that US special forces are in many

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countries, as we have discussed, Syria and Iraq, also the

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Philippines, taking on the fight, Boko Haram in Nigeria, that kind of

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thing. What did you mean by the fact that it is the golden age? Certainly

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since 9/11 what we have seen is a recognition of what the special

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operations forces... Not just US special operations forces. It is

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collectively be special operations forces throughout Europe, the Arab

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coalition, joining us in Iraq and those it had joined us in

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Afghanistan. Special operations really kind of came into their own

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after 9/11 because there was a recognition of what they could do

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against this threat that was both Al-Qaeda and the broader insurgency

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threat. In order to deal with an insurgency you really have to get

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down with the people. The US army green beret I would contend are some

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of the best in the world at understanding how to engage with

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tribal leaders and how to build their trust and organise the tribes

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against the insurgent groups -- Green Beret. This was absolutely

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required as we were fighting in both Iraq and Afghanistan. And again, the

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coalition partners joined us in that. That is what special

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operations forces, in particular special forces do. After September

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11 we have seen many situations, attacks, Terra attack. We've seen

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what happened in Paris, Brussels, all over the world. There are too

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many demands on the special operations, and Americans, be they

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from a nation where the attack has happened -- terror attacks. There

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are too many demands on them. They cannot cope with this. Things can go

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wrong. I think that is not correct either. I don't think there are too

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many demands on them. I think you need to understand there are a lot

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of threats out there. But there are sufficient forces to deal with those

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threats as long as the policy lines itself with putting those special

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operations forces in a position. Whether they are US special

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operations forces or European special operations forces, as long

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as policymakers decide it is the appropriate policy I think there is

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a vision special operations forces to deal with those threats.

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You have talked about the pressures of the job, the suicides among

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special Ops. The person who succeeded you sought counselling in

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the past. He has admitted to that. When you talk about precious in the

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job, is it something you would admit to? Have you sought counselling at

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any time in your career? What I can tell you is anybody who has been

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engaged in the kind of warfare we have seen since 9-11, and this is

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not just special operations, that anybody engaged in this war since

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then has been changed. You can't be around combat and see your friends

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killed, severely injured, and distilling the impact on their

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families, which are under stress. -- and seeing. Combat wings a level of

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stress with it. In the United States, we had not seen that for

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some time. But we recognise that there is a stress on what is a

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voluntary force. We transition to an all volunteer force several decades

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ago, and we have the finest military the nice dates has ever seen. --

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United States. But is there pressure? Yes, and we are doing

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everything we can to address those pressures. Almost talked about

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mission was the elite Navy Seal team that you prepared five years ago to

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kill Osama Bin Laden. From your point of view, was that a total

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success? I think the mission was absolutely a success. It was to go

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in and I that feel or capture Osama Bin Laden, and we did that. I don't

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think anybody going into the mission but -- thought this would

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fundamentally change the fight against al-Qaeda, but what we found

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out as a result of the mission, as we could pull intelligence from the

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target, is that Martin was much more engaged operationally than we had

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anticipated -- Osama Bin Laden. We thought at this point you might just

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be a figurehead who sometimes put out messages. But the intelligence

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shows he was continuing to be heavily involved in the operational

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aspects of al-Qaeda. There is no question in my mind the mission was

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a success. What was the most important part was that the United

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States with our allies and others said we have to bring this man to

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justice. It was not about revenge by justice. So part of this mission was

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to ensure that no matter how many years had passed by, we were going

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to bring Osama Bin Laden and others to justice. What about the Pakistani

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doctor who helped to in the mission in Pakistan, because he is serving a

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long prison sentence on what your supporters say are politically

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motivated charges. His lawyer says that he has been abandoned at the

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United States. He says so far the US have not shown their support. What

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do you think about that? Have you spoken up on his behalf? Know, and I

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will not get into the details about the doctor. I think that is

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inappropriate. Suffice to say the United States is doing everything we

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can to resolve the issue. All right. You said the mission to kill some of

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the modern has helped in terms of intelligence, but look where we are

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now -- Osama Bin Laden. But look where we are now. Now his son is

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calling people to jihad and someone. What did the mission achieved? The

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threat of terror is still alive one, and so is al-Qaeda. Again, getting

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back to the point I made, you have to bring these men that bring harm

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upon the United States or Paris or Belgium, you have to bring them to

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justice. This mission was a lot about bringing them to justice. I

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don't think any of us thought it would fundamentally change the fight

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against al-Qaeda, but over the course of many years we have been

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fighting al-Qaeda, the al-Qaeda base, which was in Pakistan, has

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been greatly diminished. The potential threat of al-Qaeda as we

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originally knew it, I think, has been diminished significantly. Are

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their franchises out there we take a look at ISIL and someone? They are

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out there, and this will be a persistent and generational fight --

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and so on. Anyone who thinks otherwise has not been part of it.

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We will not resolve this in the next couple of years. It will take a long

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time. It will take an international effort to make sure we are

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successful. And there are limits to what military efforts can achieve.

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You have to issue the political track, such as the United States and

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Russia are trying to find some solution between the opposition and

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government in Damascus in Syria? It is more than a political and

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military effort. We have to address the radical ideology out there, and

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that has to do with our narrative. We need be moderate imams. We need

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those great Muslims around the world to join with us and fight the

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scourge. It is absolutely more than a military problem. You were also

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involved in the operation to track down Saddam Hussein, so you had this

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long career. The Defence Secretary Chuck Kabel said if ever the full

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history of your career was written, it would need to be heavily redacted

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because so much of it took place in the black arena, in other words in

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secret. Secrecy is very important to the nature of the kind of operations

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that special forces carry out, isn't it? Secrecy is certainly important

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for you carry out a mission, and if it becomes open about certain

:20:57.:21:00.

tactics, techniques and procedures used, you have to be careful about

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making sure they don't get in the open as well. You may want to use

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one of those the next time you conduct a mission. Clearly secrecy

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is important, but in today's environment, as soon as a mission is

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conducted, eggs of social media and the way the press is in a 24-hour

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news cycle, invariably that mission will be found out -- because of

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social media. Was that a matter of regret to you, what happened with

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the Osama Bin Laden mission? I figure was important for the people

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of the United States and around the world to recognise they had been an

:21:41.:21:44.

effort going on since nine -11 to get Osama Bin Laden, and we would

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not give up. The fact that the mission came out after maybe second,

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I think it was entirely appropriate for the president to tell the

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American people we had brought in to justice. -- made the second. I think

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it was important for the international community to

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understand that we will not give up when people attack the United

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States. I have no regrets that the story of getting Osama Bin Laden

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Gothard. Do you think the United States is expected to do too much,

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cook the dinner, and the international community is expected

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to serve the dish? Would you like the international community to do

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more? Militarily, that is. I think the international committee is doing

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more than people realise. We have a strong coalition in the Middle East.

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Our allies, our European allies, and many Arab allies, with this in a

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number of places in the world. We have had a great coalition since

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9-11. The number of Allied forces I have worked with in the Iraqi and if

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they understand our almost too numerous to mention -- Afghanistan.

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You said during my past several years in uniform I have watched in

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disbelief how lawmakers in the US treated service chiefs and other

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senior officers during congressional testimony. They were men of

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incredible integrity yet some makers showed no respect for their decades

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of service -- lawmakers. I know you are looking at the case of one of

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your former colleagues, but in general terms, why did you say that?

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Are you worried about the relationship it when politicians and

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the military? We have excellent civilian leaders, and I have always

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been very proud of the civilian leaders I have worked for was that

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they have been honourable men and women. My point in the article is

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what makes the United States' military grade is the fact that we

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understand every day we wake up that we work for our civilian leaders.

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Our civilian chain of command, civilian lawmakers, and they have

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been incredibly supportive of the United States military. This was

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centred around one case, but the relationship between the United

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States military and our civilian leaders must continue to be strong

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as we move forward. That is what I was offering in article. Admiral

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William McRaven, in Texas, thank you very much for coming on high torque.

:24:14.:24:16.

-- HARDtalk. Thank you. Clearing skies after Sunday's

:24:17.:24:39.

showers, allowing temperatures to drop, and there will be a chill

:24:40.:24:42.

in the air for some of us as Monday And you can see,

:24:43.:24:46.

across the northern half of Britain,

:24:47.:24:50.

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