01/06/2016 HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sakur. The far right is on the rice

in Germany -- rise in goichl. Opinion polls and recent regional

elections suggest the AfD, Alternative For Germany, is winning

significant support with its anti-immigration populist message.

The country's mainstream politicians have responded by branding the party

xenophobic and dangerous. My guest is AfD deputy leader and member of

the European Parliament, Beatrix von Storch. Could the AfD shatter

Germany's postwar political consensus?

Beatrix von Storch in Brussels, welcome to HARDtalk. Hello. Your

party has done remarkably well in recent regional elections,

especially considering you really only are three years old. But you

are in the end a party of protest, are you not? And when anger and

frustration dissipates in Germany, you are likely to disappear? This is

what all the major parties hope for. They hope that already for the last

three years, and we're... Ever since growing. So, I think this is

something which will not work out that way. We have just come out with

a whole programme, we just fixed our programme by the end of last month,

and we have got several issues which are not tackled by the other

parties. We are going for a direct democracy, we want to have

referendums in Germany as well, as the one you are facing in Great

Britain. On the Brexit. We are tackling the issue of ever-clors

union, we want to have the European Union as it was created in the very

beginning, we don't want to have a European central state, where we are

going to - towards we want to have a euro as a state of sovereign

democracies, we are trying to focus again on what is very important for

the society, we want to do policy for families, with a father and a

mother and a kid, which has been forgotten, especially by our

Christian Democratic chancellor. We are going against the euro rescue

policy, because we see it does not work. We have made a point on

migration, because we said Germany and all of Europe is not able to

solve the problems of the world, the civil wars and the wars, and the

poverty and all - all over the world by taking all the migrants to

Europe. So, just to make that point, it's not protest. What we are doing,

but we are coming up with those issues which are not tackled by the

other parties, and so this is where we gain support, it's not by

protest, it is by our programme. Right. Well, you have come at --

covered an awful lot of ground there, from institutional EU

policies to economic policies, social conservatism and family

policy, and, of course, immigration policy, which we are going to talk

about at some length. It seems to me when I talk about a party of

protest, what you try to do and have done for three years is latch on to

the anger of the day in Germany. Now, three years ago when you were

formed the anger of the day was about the Greek bail-out crisis and

the fact that German taxpayers did not want to be involved in a

bail-out for southern European economic irresponsibility. That was

why your party came into being. And you seem to have shifted the ground.

You're not really talking about that anymore, you're talking more about

issues like immigration. LAUGHTER

That's a funny question. You don't think so? You were talking about the

anger of the day. We are talking about the problems, what people are

facing. People see the problem in Germany being first to rescue the

euro, which means rescue the euro area, but not the euro. Anyway

that's a different topic. But we are facing the problems people want us

to address. And what they miss by all the other parties. So, you can't

blame a party for picking up the problems which have not been picked

up by the other parties. This is what we do. But my point is you have

changed... One of your own founders says that the party - I'm quoting

him - has fallen irtreefably into the wrong hands. Yeah, because he

was very sad that it was no longer his hands. So, I don't blame him on

that. I do understand it on a personal point, but that's not the

point. The thing is that we are having different issues and in the

beginning it was not only the euro, the euro was the reason why - to

forge - the moment why which formed the party, at that moment, because

there was no party to address the euro rescue policy in a different

way, but there are several other issues which are not being... Um,

picked by the other parties. So, there were lots of issues, which

needed a new party, and we are facing them. I would put it to you

that to many Germans your particular focus on your anti-immigration

policy looks extraordinarily cynical. You know, you saw the

difficulties the country was facing with a mall migrants coming into

Germany last year, and you suddenly ramped up the rhetoric against both

immigration, but particularly against Muslim immigrants, and

that's what your party is running with today. Well, you see, I'm...

Why is not Great Britain taking one point -- 1.5 million Muslim migrants

from northern Africa, for example? Why not? Go ahead, do so. But

Germany discovered that we are not able to take everyone, and the

German society does not want to - we want to help, we are willing to

help, we are willing to pay, but what we... The point we make is to

say we can't have everyone on the - on our territory. That's - this is

not possible. And this is what we are making a point of e yes, that's

clear. All the rest of Europe, the polls, the French -- the Poles,

French, Scandinavian countries, they are welcome to take all the

migrants, what we... Our chancellor, I must admit, invited to come to

Europe. But the German society does not want to solve the problem that

way. There are different ways fI may say so... We see the problems of the

people. There are different ways of having the debate, different tones

one can adopt. When on Facebook early in the year, you were asked on

Facebook whether German border guards should use weapons against

illegal female migrants with children, you gave the clear answer,

"Yes." I wonder whether you regret that now? Because that's gone down

in Germany as something which, I guess, will forever be associated

with you. No. Because I made it very clear that it was... It was

commented in the wrong way. I made very clear the point and I do

understand that you missed that one, because you're not following German

media, that I do not want to shoot at anybody. It has been others who

have said so, that they wanted to do so. I made the point very clear - we

don't want to shoot anybody. What we also say is that we now hand over

the border control to Turkey and the one who is shooting and killing

people at the border - that's Erdogan and Turk. After car

collation you said the use of firearms against children is not

permitted but women are a different matter. "The use of weapons against

them can be permitted within a narrow legal framework." Do you

stand by that? This is... I made it very clear that no-one wants to

shoot at anybody, and we can see that the border control, once a

country... Who wants to protect the border functions very well without

any weapons. We can see that in Scandinavia, we can see that in...

In - at the Balkan states, Austria, every country who wants to protect

their border can do that without the use of weapons. Every soldier at the

border control is wearing weapons. This is the law. But they don't have

to use it. What we can see is that the - we can see that the border

control functions that way. The only guy in Europe who is using weapons,

and it's not only by shooting in the air, but shooting people to death,

this is Erdogan. Yes. Forgive me... Let me make that point clear - there

were no debate about the shooting that Erdogan started in the very

beginning, there was a huge silence, no-one made a comment on that. So,

we should stick to those who are shooting and not to those saying,

"We don't want to shoot at anybody." Yes or no - do you regret the words

you used to talk about the possibility that German forces could

use weapons against women? Do you regret it? Yes or no? I'm... I made

that already very clear and said yes, I didn't want to say that we

want to shoot at anybody and I was... I was making a wrong quote

then, yes, this is what I said already. OK. But this is weeks or

months ago. OK. All right. Let's talk about what's happening now,

because Angela Merkel, without making a big fanfare about it, has

shifted policy, you know, there are still temporary border checks, she's

also talking about a much more strict integration process for the

migrants who come to Germany, and are allowed to stay in Germany, they

have to full nil various obligations -- fulfil various obligation, the

number of years they have to spend before they get residency has been

extended. It seems as though the German people support this, the

latest polling I have seen suggests that, you know, a clear majority are

in favour of the stance right now - this changed stance - that Mrs

Merkel has made. So, maybe this issue for you has gone as far as it

can? Maybe, you know, your anti-immigrant stance isn't going to

get much more traction. You know, we don't... We don't make politics

because we want to attract in some stupid way, we want to find

solutions for problems, what we are facing, and the problem we are

facing is that we had 1.2 million officially registered migrants last

year, something like 3, 4, 5, maybe 600,000 not registered, so we don't

even know the concrete numbers from last year. We are having something

like 200,000-plus this year already. So we don't even know about the

concrete numbers, and our point was to say, "We can't take them all."

And now, as the society understands that, the chancellor is changing her

politics, but what she's doing is handing over the border control to

Turkey and always - you know, explaining that we need European

solidarity and all the European countries now have to take some

quota, some part of the migrants coming to us. You may have your...

And all the other countries are yet to do so. You may have your

criticisms of Turkey and Mr Erdogan but the fact is since that "one for

one" deal was struck between the EU and Turkey, the number of migrants

coming into Germany has dwindled. I mean, you have very few coming into

Germany today, so in that sense the policy is working. There is another

point too - you talk about the challenge for Germany and you

suggest, you know, the million and more that came last year are an

impossible challenge for Germany. Let me put this to you - the EU

Commission's latest figures show your population in your country is

shrinking from 81 million in 2013 to just over 70 million in 2016.

Goodness me, you need some people from somewhere. Yes. We need people

who participate in our labour force and pay into our social systems. We

do not need by majority people who we have to pay for in the long run.

What Germany - the population in Germany thinks at least is that

those people who are coming at the moment will overaall not pay into

social systems, but will be paid out of our social system. They are

increasing the problem and they are not... Not according, if I may say

so, not according to your country's leading economist. The German

institute for Economic Research the President says, "The refugees will

certainly make an important contribution to the needs that

Germany will have in terms of its labour market." Yeah. Yeah. Maybe he

says that, bit's not... It doesn't mean that it is true. All those

experts have said Greece will be rescued, already in 2010, after the

first rescue package, all those experts then said, "We wouldn't need

a second reserve accuse package for Greeces", and then the same experts

said we wouldn't need a third rescue package, and now they are coming up

and saying the fourth rescue package will be enough. So, don't - all

those experts are not so much experts, so if they say something is

that way, maybe it's the other way around. Another question you just

kamg up with, saying that the numbers of migrants coming to Europe

is going down, yes, but this is nothing to do with the policy of our

chancellor, it has to do with the policy of our neighbours, closing

down their borders. It seems to me, as the numbers have gone down, and

neither of suss disagreeing that the numbers have most definitely gone

down, you, again, in your party seem to have shifted the nature of the

argument, because in your recent May - I believe it was about a month

ago, your conference in Stuttgart, much of the discussion wasn't so

much about immigration numbers, it was about the very specific point

that the most of the people coming into Germany are Muslim and you

actually came out with a new platform statement for the party

which basically baldly says, "Islam does not belong." , to Germany. What

does that It means that Islam is not part of

the German history and not part of the German cultural history, it does

not mean... And we made that point very clear, that the people living

as Muslims in Germany don't belong to Germany. Visits to different

things. Hang on, if I may, what about the 3.5 million people in

Germany of Turkish origins who were brought to your country since the

late 50s and early 60s to make your economy stronger? -- this is two.

They helped build today's Germany, they have grandchildren and children

who are German citizens and you say they don't belong to Germany? I just

said the contrary, I just said they do belong to Germany. This is the

point I just made a few seconds ago. They are Muslims, just as the

people who are coming to Germany today are. Maybe I can make one

sentence altogether because it's important. We differentiate between

Islam as a political Islam in most interpretations and Muslims. And the

ones who are living their faith and practising their beliefs, this is

religious freedom, this is one thing, this has nothing to do with

political Islam in its most interpretations. Political Islamism

always claiming political power and political influence of our system,

of our law system. If that's the case, if you draw the distinction

clearly between what you call political Islam and religious Islam,

why do you support the banning of minarets in Germany, the ending of

the call to prayer, and say that women can't weigh the fullface veil

-- were. Those are different displays of the Muslim legend for

many Muslims. This is what we say... This is a political

statement, this is claiming political power. What? A minaret on

a mosque is a statement of political power crazy one of your colleagues

has said Islam is a foreign body and Islamisation of Germany is a real

danger. The minaret represents all of that, does it? We've got lots of

mosques without a minaret. That functions very well, nobody has ever

doubted a mosque without a minaret is a mosque where you can live your

belief, your Muslim belief, and you can pray and talk to your God. This

is something that functions very well without Muslim minarets. We

never had the debate whether a mosque without a minaret isn't a

mosque where you can pray, this is what we say, you can have mosques

but we don't want the minarets. This is backed by something like 35% of

German people. One has not to agree with this but we are expressing the

views of people who see it that way. You say you don't have to agree

with it but I wonder if you worry about some of the people who

profoundly disagree with your policies on Islam and things like

minarets. For example, the President of Germany's central council of Jews

says with their manifesto today the AfD has departed from the

foundations of our very constitution, they threatened to

split our society and thwart peaceful coexistence. One of the

most senior Jewish voices in your country. The majority of our people

for example support the idea, something like 61% or 62% is the

last number support the phrase Islam does not belong to Germany, which

does not mean Muslim people do not belong to Germany. What we don't

like is the impact of political Islam onto our public life. This is

what we don't want to have. We don't accept that for example Sharia is

that we should accept. This is practice in various constituencies.

This is what we don't want to have, we don't want the influence of

Islamic law in Germany, we've got a German law which has to be

accepted. These are the debates we're having. I don't think everyone

has to agree with our opinion and we don't want to be backed by 100% of

the people. But it's correct... Ajax at that point that not everyone has

to agree but you don't want to be seen as an Afobe is an much less

racists, and there are elements it seems in your party that run the

risk of being seen that way by fellow Germans, for example one of

your regional party leaders told a newspaper the other day that Germans

wouldn't want one of your national football team players, Jerome

Boateng, to live next door as a neighbour and the only implication

was because he has a black Ghanaian father. What is going on in your

party? Let me make that point and thank you for asking the question.

As this has just been corrected by the author of this title himself,

they admitted that our vice chair has not said anything about Boateng,

he didn't even mention the name, he didn't even know Boateng. So they

had to admit that they built up a headline from nothing. This is again

something which is a bit difficult when you try to follow a public

conversation in another country where you don't speak the language.

I'm not sure the newspaper's characterisation of the conversation

is quite as you put it, but even if we agree to disagree about that

case, what about the leader of the parliamentary faction of your party

in another region, and this is a direct quote, he drew a distinction

between the life-affirming African proliferation type of person and the

self-denying European type. He warned that African reproductive

behaviour wasn't going to change as long as Europe took in more African

immigrants. What do you think of that kind of language? This is

again... I apologise for saying again, but we had made a very clear

statement on that as the board of our party and we said we would

disagree and we do not accept this way of speaking. We made that point

clear. Is that gentleman still in your party? He is still in our party

and you can't... Why? Because you can't exclude someone by making such

a statement. You can't exclude someone for what appears to most

Germans as overt racism, that's not grounds for kicking him out of the

party? We've made a statement on that and we made that clear and he

accepted it. Maybe the British system is a bit more radical and the

German one is a different one. We have made a statement on this

statement and this has again not been reported back to the UK, which

I understand, and that's the way public communication functions or

does not function. Far right parties doing well all over Europe, from the

National Front in France and two others in Hungary and Eastern

Europe, but here use it in the European Parliament in Brussels...

The leaders of Europe have made it plainly clear that they will have

nothing to do with parties of the far right. The president of the

European Commission Jean-Claude Juncker said the other day that

there can be no debate for dialogue with the far right. You remain for

all of your limited success deeply politically isolated, do you not?

No, I think this was your introductory remark he made. We are

shifting the political system in Germany. Our great coalition has

today lost its majority. If it were to vote today the CDU and the Social

Democrats together would not be able to build up a new government and

this is because we are now the third biggest party. We are in the polls

around 15% overall in Germany, so we're really changing the political

system. The CDU and the CSU decided they would have to come up with a

new programme for the next federal election next September and they

picked the major topics of the AFP programme, so they want to copy us

on our family policies and internal politics, on in a security and

police and migration. What we are doing is shifting the programme so

being isolated... I wouldn't call it, I would say we are changing

politics at the moment in Germany. No doubt we will be talking to the

other German parties about all that but Beatrix von Storch, thank you

very much for joining me on HARDtalk.