13/06/2016 HARDtalk

Now on BBC News its time for Hardtalk.

Britain's referendum campaign on whether

to stay in or leave the

European Union isn't quite going as Prime

Minister David Cameron would

The PM wants a convincing win for the Remain camp

on the 23rd of June, but the polls suggest

He probably hoped the divisions in his

own Conservative Party could be kept in check.

My guest is former Deputy Prime Minister and passionate Remain

advocate Michael Heseltine, Lord Heseltine.

Are the Remainers beginning to worry?

It seems Prime Minister David Cameron's strategy is to frighten

the British people into voting to remain inside the EU.

Does it strike you that is a strategy that is going

Brexit campaign have used in order to counter

all the facts and all the opinions they don't like.

So, they say that if the Governor of the Bank

of England or the IMF or any of the big financial organisations

say it will be very dangerous for Britain

marketplace you're going to destroy, they say it's fear.

They don't tell you that the large employers

have countless small and medium-sized companies that depend

If the Governor of the Bank of England or

someone like that comes out, they say it's fear, because they

They have no facts, they have no plans, and so

all they can do is to attack David Cameron's warnings.

The fact that his warnings have come from, I think

it is fair to say, every friend this country has got in the world -

all the Commonwealth leaders, the Americans, the companies that

our universities, our academics, our scientists.

One after the other, these groups have come out and said,

for God's sake, don't throw away one of the most successful, democratic,

peaceful organisations the world has ever created.

But politics is about perceptions, isn't it?

The people will decide, and the public

have decided that the Remain campaign, within which you are a

powerful voice, is the more negative campaign.

42%-28% see it as more negative than the Leave campaign.

To be honest, I don't think these polls are worth

the space they get in the newspapers.

The pollsters themselves don't believe it, because on the one

poll that they could try and do, the exit poll on the day,

Because they are frightened of getting it as

wrong as they did in the general election.

Whilst they have got to do

these polls, because they are big commercial organisations and they

can't say they don't know, they themselves don't believe it.

Can I just remind you about Scotland?

10 days out in Scotland, people were

Ten days later, actually it was 60-40 to

Frankly, the only thing of interest now are the arguments about whether

I asked you about the Cameron strategy.

You defended him and said it is not based upon fear.

Does that mean that you, like him, think that it is a

fair and accurate thing to tell the British

people that if they vote to leave the European Union,

that their traditional protections for their pensions are

going to disappear - that pensions would be cut?

People have been frightened by what Cameron has said.

Haven't you seen the stock exchange today and over the last week?

It goes up and down, month after month

It is down about 10% over the last year.

To the simplistic, it's the bloody financial

people, the bigwigs and

all this sort of stuff, the remote elite.

It's your insurance companies, it's your pensions.

That's what the London stock exchange represents.

It's the pension pots of millions of British people.

David Cameron is the British Prime Minister, and he promised

during the last election campaign that he would maintain the triple

He also said that the Tory party would always defend

Now, he is calling into question both of those

fundamental priorities listed as part of his election campaign.

I thought George Osborne put another ?6 billion

into the health service the other day.

Have you not heard what Cameron and Osbourne are saying?

-- Have you not heard what Cameron and Osborne are saying?

They argue that if Brexit is the decision

taken by the British people, pensions will be threatened,

the NHS will be threatened, as though they don't have

This is, in some way, automatic, they say, if we vote to

I don't think you've followed the logic.

What they are saying is that if Britain's economy

that will flow through into the health service finances.

They still have political choices to make.

They have a political choice to make, which is to stay within

Europe and not shatter the prospects for our economy.

If you do something to prejudice that, the

consequence will hit the growth of the British economy.

Wait a minute, you cannot ask questions and then

leave out the important bit of the answer.

If you do something to prejudice the British

economy, the ability of the taxpayer to pay for

the health service and social services

is prejudiced, so how much will

Brexit admit that their uncertainty is going to damage the

We have endless forecasts, starting with the Governor of the

Bank of England, the IFS, the OECD, one after

the other, pointing to the

If David Cameron truly believed that the

consequences of Brexit would be, as you describe, on pensions, on the

health service, on the British economy as a whole, how could he 14

weeks ago, just 14 weeks ago, say that he would not rule out

recommending a Brexit, still depending on how his negotiation

How could he possibly have meant that if now he tells us the Brexit

actually puts, in his words, a bomb under the British economy?

I think I can tell you why he could recommend

that - he didn't conceive it possible that the British people

would take a leap in the dark, a jump off

the high diving board into

water that is too shallow, a risk that every significant economic

and which Brexit has no answer to at all.

Do you think the David Cameron should not have taken the risk?

No, because he thought he would get a deal.

He didn't get a deal that addresses any of this.

If you listen to these Brexit guys, their

great case is that you are frozen into Europe and there is nothing you

There are many aspects of that, but let's take the facts.

We haven't got the Schengen free movement of people.

Margaret Thatcher got a significant rebate.

John Major got a social policy opt-out at Maastricht.

David Cameron has got a protection for our

services industry, has got rid of the ever

closer union, and a year or two ago, when the European

going to increase the budgets, increase the taxes on the rest of

the European Union, what did David Cameron do?

Did he lie back and say, buckle up, all those

bureaucrats have told me we are going to to have to pay more tax?

He didn't, he went round the 27 capitals of Europe,

and said to our fellow leaders, we won't put up with this.

And they won, and Brussels had to climb down.

There were not increases in the budget, because the ministers who

I asked you at the beginning about the mindset of

the Remain campaign, saying it was negative.

It seems to me there is a fundamental

lack of confidence in the Remain campaign

about the ability of the

British economy to be an independent, open and successful

economy, trading with the world, not locked

into the European Union, but

We are the European financial centre of the world.

Michael Gove's suggestion that the Germans, for example,

won't want to trade with Britain is fanciful.

The fanciful element is that he links our 47% going to

Europe with the 7% that is coming back from Germany.

Why not, if we're really going talk about history, there are

27 individual sovereign nations engaged in this.

Let's take the opposite end of Germany - Malta.

If we cut off our supply of money to Europe, Malta has got

It also, by cutting off our supply, would not

get the money it now gets from Europe.

Let me quote to you, a If 35-year-old, the CEO of

She says she wants to be able to trade with

She doesn't actually do that much trade with the EU.

She had a delegation recently over from Brazil.

They wanted to buy hovercraft, but because of the EU-

Brazil trade deal, with high tariffs, they could not buy

Leaving the EU represents an incredible opportunity

The Confederation of British Industry,

the British Chambers of Commerce, the Engineering Employers'

representative group of British companies believes we should

That's hundreds and hundreds, if not millions of people.

With respect, it's actually a few, many would say,

establishment business representation organisations.

I don't know how much campaigning you've done.

When you go to a city like Middlesbrough,

Britain has prospered inside the EU, they say,

it is all right for the metropolitan elite

in London and the south-east, where there is

prosperity, talking about the advantages

of the EU, but talk about immigration,

and the fact that in my town there are now hundreds of

people from the rest of the EU who are taking low-paid jobs and our

Our children are finding that the schools are full.

Many of the schools are full of immigrants.

Against that, I went to do Any Questions

The overwhelming audience response was to remain.

I went to the Oxford union - you will say that this is

I think it is a great exemplar of everything

I did Sutton Coldfield on Saturday, a

But there is no point in trying to select individual

One has to deal with the arguments and the facts.

Let's get back to immigration, because it's

I am the first to recognise that with the difficulties

of the world economy since 2008, there has been a growing resentment

amongst a significant number of people which has turned into a

It's got nothing to do with the European Union, it is all about

Farage in this country is exactly the same.

Basically, underlying it all, as Trump has said, we will not have

any Muslims in America and we will put up the frontier...

You said, let's talk the specifics of immigration.

We had figures last week that announced over 300,000 net

188,000 of those, the majority, had nothing

The point about freedom of movement in the EU is

that the British Government has absolutely no control over how many

people move to the UK from inside the EU.

Tell me this - why do you think

we should be so successful in changing the flow in Europe by

leaving it when we can't control the flow

if the British government chose to, they are talking about an Australian

points system. They could impose controls on movement from the rest

of the European Union into this country if they were allowed to do

so. It is not allowed under the EU. You are switching your case. It is

actually about half in half and this government has a choice on both of

those. So why not asked why they didn't

impose controls on those coming from outside the EU? It is a fundamental

issue being discussed no on this programme by me because the argument

is categorical. The reason they didn't control the majority from

outside is because we need them. We need them for two reasons. And we

make need them from inside as well but the issue is one of control

which you seem to be ignoring. There is no control under the Freedom of

movement system inside the European Union. You would surely accept that?

There is no control outside and the reasons are the same. We need the

people for two reasons. Two big reasons. The first is skills. Have a

very successful growing economy and are desperate for skills. Secondly,

there is the whole problem of supporting our social services. If

you go to any aspect of our social services, particularly the health

service and all the welfare provision in general, you will find

a very large number of able have come from overseas. You did mention

an interesting point about the points system. Let us think about

the points system for a minute. What attack choices we will keep the

numbers down because then we can select the numbers. What does that

mean? It means you go to the poorest countries in the world with a

doctors and nurses at taxpayers' expenses in the poorest countries

and then we see come here. What Mirallas he is that and what do

think it does to the public opinion in those countries being deprived of

the most talented people? -- what morality do you think that is. The

only solution to migration is to close the gap between the rich and

poor and if you start working on the assumption that the registry regard

to cream the most talented, you will create resentment and secondly you

will find it harder to build those economies and persuade people to

stay there. I hear your passion and you have

been a passionate advocate for the European Union alter your career.

Why do you think older Britons of your generation do not agree with

you? And why do many people living away from the prosperous south-east

of the UK economy are wondering what is going on here?

You're making assumptions about what is going on in the rest of the

country. One has to have some sort of sense

in what is going on across the country. I think there is no doubt

that young people are going to be inclined to remain in but older

people, according to most of the polls, I don't know if you're going

to dispute this, older people tend to be in a majority to leave.

I don't agree with that and neither do you really because there are

plenty of older people in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales and the

do not agree with that, they want to remain. Generalising is dangerous

but when I do agree with you is that it seems to me that the younger

people want it. I was immensely impressed and am now going to commit

the crime that she pages you of doing which is to home in on one

person as the exemplar. The train young people to deny them the

opportunities -- betraying our young people and might -- and denying them

the opportunities of peace and security. We talked about peace and

security. Do you notice a condition of Europe that you have to be a

democracy? You know that since he created the European Union we got

rid of the fascists in Spain and Portugal.

There are plenty of democracy is not in the European Union.

It is a condition and we have spread the Marquis is part of the European

Union. -- spread democracy. I know you have a historical

perspective on this but I want to talk about the future of the party

that you love and have worked for. They are in a terrible mess. Let me

quote words from John Major about Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and the

leadership of the Leave campaign. The cold than dishonest, deceitful,

squalid. He described Boris Johnson as a court jester. Do you share his

sentiments? Sure. Boris is a huge joke. I love

Boris. And squalid?

You mustn't take Boris on his own terms. Sometimes the go horribly

wrong. His joke about Hitler, well, it wasn't a joke, was it?

Would you accept Boris Johnson as Prime Minister of your party would

you see your falling apart? I'm not going to get into

speculation about losing because I don't think were going to lose. I

was John Major's deputy for two years and I so the damage that the

Eurosceptic case did to John Major's government. I do admire hugely that

David Cameron has secured a Conservative majority for the first

time for a considerable period of time and I do believe it would be

damaging to the Conservative Party at his leadership was ended.

David Cameron bid began soon after a victory for the Leave campaign.

But I don't leave in it. You don't want to believe in it but

the polls suggest it could go either way. Do you accept that David

Cameron has no future as Prime Minister if the Leave campaign

whence? You're back on the polls.

I am back on accepting the possibility.

I don't blame you but you've got to try and get headlines out of this

programme and the best way to do that is to get me to agree with an

assumption. You're not going to win because I know the dangers more than

you do. Your experience of politics goes far

beyond mine but with you agree that a Prime Minister who said leaving

the EU is putting a bomb under the future of the country could not

continue to lead if the Leeds side wins?

I support, I will go on doing so and I think he will win.

If the Leave campaign wins or even if it doesn't, which in OC it is a

terrible mistake for Britain to be having a referendum on leaving the

European Union? I had all these questions written

down before I came here. How will they get me to make a headline?

I am interested in your perspective on what is happening in Britain

today. Do you think is right that Britain

is having this referendum? What is the point in discussing

that? We are having it. We are facing the most momentous and

disastrous decision in my political history and I want to do all I know

how to put the arguments to stay in for Britain's sake, it's

self-interest. You cannot ignore this accumulation of power on our

doorstep and I do not want to be the boss sitting outside saying they do

not want to listen to us. I want to influence the decisions and the only

way to do that is to be sitting at the tables.

We have to end there. Thank you for being on Hardtalk.

Good evening. For some of us another day of leaden skies and slow-moving