Paul Refsdal, Journalist and Filmmaker HARDtalk


Paul Refsdal, Journalist and Filmmaker

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Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Stephen Sackur.

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French newspapers will no longer publish pictures of the perpetrators

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of jihadist atrocities in an effort to ensure they are neither glorified

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nor humanised. My yesterday is a journalist who sees his mission

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differently. Norwegian Paul Refsdal have spent 30 years filming up close

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and personal from inside militant groups. He was held hostage while

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filming with the Taliban. Last year he spent weeks with would-be suicide

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bombers in Syria. Do we really need to see the West's enemies this

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close-up? Paul Refsdal, welcome to HARDtalk.

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Thank you. Let's start with the motivation, the compulsion that

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throughout your career has taken you beyond "Enemy lines" to spend time

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with militants, with killers. What is it? Well, it started in

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Afghanistan. It was more a political reason than journalistic so to say.

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I wanted to do something for the Afghans fighting the Soviets and I

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just got stuck in Matt Wrack. Out of sympathy, you definitely had a side?

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Yes, it is something to do with the underdog thing -- with that. I was

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fascinated with the Indians in North America and the struggle against the

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white man, so it is something to do with that. And you know, I found

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that this is a very underreported field in war. I mean, insurgent

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sides, terrorist sites or whatever you want to call it. That is a very

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interesting proposition, that you would I guess therefore say that

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your job isn't to be entirely objective, to be neutral, you have

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sympathies, do you? Well, in a way you could say that I see the need of

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shelling the other side. If you have 99 journalists going with the

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government forces, I want to be the one going in with the insurgents and

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showing their point of view. With a view to a positive view, or...? I

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would say a neutral view. I don't want to make propaganda. Still, you

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see that in war... I mean, the media is not objective. We don't get our

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enemies the fair treatment that they should get if we were 100%

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objective. So, I think, you know, my job would more be to balance you

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know the coverage. Well, I want to come back to that, issues of balance

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and propaganda, but I think to get your story straight for everybody

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watching and listening, we need to explain how he penetrated into this

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group who were formerly known as al-Nusra. They have changed their

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name very recently. Essentially, the same organisation committed to an

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extreme form of jihadis, affiliated to Al-Qaeda until very recently. How

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did you get their trust? Well, actually, the first time I noticed

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that Al-Qaeda let's say like me would be when they published some of

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the letters that they captured from Osama Bin Laden's computer. In one

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of these letters I was mentioned as a Norwegian journalist who went with

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the Taliban and show that they were human beings. So apparently I am on

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some kind of Al-Qaeda... Approved list? Yes. Isn't it a terribly

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worrying place to be, on an Al-Qaeda approved list? They see you as a

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kind of propaganda tool. No, I think the lack of let's say fair treatment

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they are getting in Western media just makes them happy that someone

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is willing to go and listen to them... It is an interesting... Fair

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treatment for a group who committed the 9/11 atrocity, who have killed

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countless civilians around the world. I am not quite sure I

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understand what you mean by fair treatment? Well, the fair treatment

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in the group I went to in Syria is just showing what they are actually

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doing, not showing the history of the group that they are affiliated

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with. I mean, I am never going to defend, you know, flying planes into

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buildings or blowing yourself up in subway stations - never. But what

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you see in Syria is, maybe, I am saving may be, the new Al-Qaeda, an

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Al-Qaeda which works as an insurgent group against, you know, the

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regimes, or their -- authoritarian regimes. Last year over many months

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you got permission to go into the al-Nusra territory and you got

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permission to film, sort of fly on the wall, over many, many weeks,

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with a small group of men, some of whom were would-be suicide bombers.

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How ready were they to accept your presence and talk openly about what

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they were doing and their motivations? Well, actually, when I

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had a -- approval to fill with them it was a matter of asking

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individuals, would you participate in a film? There was a British man

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in a film. First he wanted to participate, then he didn't want and

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then he wanted again. So it was not... I mean, if he would have

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declined, I would have to respect that and I could not have use the

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footage that I had. So it is, you know, there is nothing automatic

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that happens with these groups. We will just look in a second at a

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couple of clips, and just by way of practising it, one of the

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extraordinary characters you came across was a Saudi man. Now, he is a

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father of two, he spent a couple of years in Syria on jihad, having left

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his family behind in Saudi Arabia, and he was on a list, and he was

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about, he thought, to be sent on a suicide operation. And you filmed

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him as he introduced you to the truck that he believed was going to

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be his route to suicide and to mass murder. Let's have a look at a clip.

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I mean, watching that, it is chilling and it is also very bizarre

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that he can, with such relaxation, talk you through the process of...

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Of a massive explosion that he knows is gonna kill many, many people.

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What was he really like? Well, he is a person who I would say... He loves

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life. He loves life? Yeah, he is very social, he is very funny. He

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has a beautiful voice. I mean, when he sings you think you are, you

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know, on the Syrian show for what you call it? X-Factor. Something

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like that. And also he loves food. LAUGHTER Well, I have seen the film.

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And it should be said, your film, Dugma: The Button, it can be

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downloaded by people across the world on the Internet. I have seen

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it and in a sense, when I talk about chilling, what is so strange about

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the film is that he these men are, intent on as I say mass killing, but

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they are portrayed by you in a very human way. You see them enjoying

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food, we see him entertaining children. You, in a sense, are

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inviting us to be sympathetic to them. But you have to remember

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that... You have to distinguish between killing civilians and

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killing soldiers. I mean, this group al-Nusra, they use these weapons

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against military targets, which is just... They don't kill civilians?

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They do kill civilians. They have killed civilians. They are killed...

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According to this area network of human rights they have killed 356

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civilians in five years of war. And if you compare that with the regime

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killing 183,000 plus, you know, that is not a lot of civilians.

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Nonetheless one of the points about your film that struck me is you

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never pressed him on the possibility that his massive truck bomb might

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well kill women and children. You never asked him that question. Well,

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when you see the film, you also see that he is speaking with one sheik

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who told him that he has to go and see the place he is gonna bomb. You

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know, even if he has 100 times. And when we went on one of these

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missions, he wanted to see at first because as I said he didn't want to

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kill any brothers and sisters in this operation. This is the same

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danger. If a tornado pilot drops a bomb on something he thinks is an

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Islamic State target, that is the same danger, you could kill women

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and children, but that is not the intended target of al-Nusra. IDSA,

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if you interview the pilot of the US plane, you would ask him that

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question, but you did not ask the same question of these guys --I dare

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say. But I think, you know... Were you controlled or censored in any

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way? No. There were some restrictions, filming buildings from

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outside, buildings that could be geo- located and presumably bombed.

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They didn't want me to do that. And certain people didn't want to show

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their faces either because they had some job that was secret or because

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they had family in the regime controlled area or Islamic State

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controlled area. Let's turn to your second key character, you have

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mentioned him already, known why his Arabic name. It has since become

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clear that he is actually a British - an American citizen, Lucas Kinney,

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who lived for a long time in London. Now, he talked to you for a long

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time, over weeks, but as time progressed it became clear... And he

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got married as well, it should be set. It became clear he was having

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doubts about being on the list of would-be suicide bombers -- said.

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And you pick away at the rising level of doubt. And this clip will

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illustrate that. Let's have a look. It was a very big change. Not to

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sound cliche or anything, but really you feel before a part of you was

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incomplete and now you have found apart to complete that. Has it had

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any, let's say, effect on you to get married, that there are things you

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wouldn't do any more in jihad? Can you give an example? Well, I have

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heard that you are on the list. Have you talked with your wife about it?

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Yeah. And what does she say? Like I said, if your wife is a believing

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woman with strong faith, then she should help you in all aspects of

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your life. Fascinating stuff. Do you happen to know whether he did kill

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himself? As far as I know, he is still alive. As far as you know. I

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wonder what his mother, who lives in London, makes of your film and

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seeing her son in that way. Have you talked to her? We tried to contact

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her, because we wanted to show her the film as a courtesy, but we

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haven't managed. Let me ask you this, I want to broaden this out,

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because it is very tempting to spend the entire interview talking about

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what he found in Syria, because it is so interesting, and so rare, the

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access, but in France recently I ensure you are aware their has been

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a very hot debate, after the spate of horrible atrocities committed by

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men apparently loyal to Islamic State, there has been a strong

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debate about the wisdom of even providing pictures and names of the

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perpetrators. The philosopher and anti- sort of jihadist outspoken

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figure, Bernard Henri Levy, he said that the President on stable mix of

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trivialisation and glorification of these people, in which we are told

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that they are ordinary, that they happen to have hitched their fate to

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a gettable acts, he said this approach, picturing them, naming

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them, giving them a back story, will have the worst possible

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consequences, a copycat effect. What do you say to that? Actually, I'd

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agree. If you see these attacks which have

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been in France recently, you see that there are mental, unstable

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people. And I'm thinking about the phrase you had in the United States

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in the 1970s, suicide like cops. That people are actually suicidal,

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but want to go out in a blast. So in a way, yes. Are we not doing the

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very same thing, albeit in serious so maybe we pay less attention to it

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that in France? But aren't you doing the same thing, you are humanising

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and in providing an ego trip, some vanity platform, to people who want

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to kill themselves and kill others? Yes, I understand what you're

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saying, but as I said these... They are not targeting civilians. If they

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were actually... If this was Islamic State, and they were sending trucks

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of explosives into markets, I would never have done a film. Wouldn't

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you? No. Categorically? As a journalist, it would be a good

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story. It is something that every journalist network around the world

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would be interested in, but you are saying you have a system of values

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that allows you to sympathise to a certain extent with people who kill

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soldiers. Yes. Or intent to kill soldiers, even if they kill women

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and children inadvertently. You draw the line at IS. Yes, yes. In a way

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that they are doing these kinds of operations, yes. And that is kind of

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a luxury I as a documentary filmmaker have, that may be people

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in the newsroom don't have, because I can spend a lot of time doing my

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project. I mean, I have been working with this project nearly three

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years. And you have to do the story, you know, in the same day. So you

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have to search for kind of the scoop, thing. What I can... You

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know, I can consider these things, and let's say Islamic State, I

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wouldn't touch them. I just wonder, even, I just wonder at the thoughts

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that are coming out of France today about glorification and copycat

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pavers, whether they are giving you pause? There is a psychoanalyst in

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Paris who has said this, he has said that giving them publicity is a

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quote really big boost to their efforts to make themselves

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world-famous, even while their victims are anonymous and will

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forever remain anonymous. So going back to your film, do you worry that

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as more and more people download it and watch it around the world, there

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will be some who are attracted to the notion of becoming a jihadist

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suicide bomber? I think, you know, the angry Young second-generation

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Pakistani sitting in London who want to do Jihad, he is not going to be

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enticed by this film. I mean, he will want to have glorification, as

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you say. He will want to have this action film you get from Islamic

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State. This is not going to be a recruitment film. This is... The

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audience he would be people, you know, Europeans and Americans, who

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think that Al Qaeda is just black. It doesn't have any shades of grey.

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And he will see that actually they have... They are human beings. It

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sounds very banal but they are human beings, and that they have dilemmas.

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You know, they have problems. They... Maybe sometimes they are

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clumsy, they do mistakes. They are very human. And there has been a lot

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of academic research into what makes a foreign jihadist fighter. There

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has been a lot of talk about the comparisons with cults. You know,

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people who feel lost in their society in which they live, who are

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looking to belong, looking for a sense of meaning in their lives.

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Would you... Now that you have spent a lot of time with his foreign

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fighters, would you buy into that? Yes, well, maybe not necessarily Al

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Nostra. With Islamic State I would agree there is a certain cult factor

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that. -- Al Nusra. And I know some people who are in an Islamic State

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now, with Al Nusra I think it is more honest, it is more honours.

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They want to fight the regime, and they are fighting, as I said, you

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know, in a very... What would I say? They are fighting and respecting the

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world laws of war, you know. Both Islamic and I would say the Geneva

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convention up to a certain point. You throughout this interview have

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insisted on this idea that they have a value system that you can in some

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ways respect. Yes. Let's talk personal things. You... You

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undertake a lot of danger to get the stories that you get, whether it be

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in Peru or Sri Lanka in the past, but more recently in Afghanistan and

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the Middle East. There is no question you take enormous risks. I

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just want to know, in terms of your family, you've got kids, whether you

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really sometimes wonder whether it's worth it? Well, actually, I've got

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kids. And I... They are adults now. I believe I am very careful doing

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the things I'm doing. I mean, I'm not looking for the action. I don't

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often go to the front line. I go to the front line from time to time,

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but you know, what I really am looking for these days is not the

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explosions, it's the people behind the explosions. Their psychology.

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And you have to take a certain risk. And you know you have taken risks,

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because you have had the experience of being taken hostage. You were

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sold to hostage takers by the Taliban and they want at one point

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$500,000 in ransom. Well, actually, he kept me. They wanted 500 thousand

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dollars in ransom but we negotiated it down to $20,000. And... But the

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money was never paid, because there was a lot of pressure within the

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Taliban for him to release me. So actually it was solved in six days.

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So six days you were out at the most extraordinary twist to that story is

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that they are at one point confronted Ewan said one way you

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could save yourself is to convert to Islam. And you did. Well, there were

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four options. There was exchanged for prisoners, which was out of the

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question. There was a ransom, which at that point was $20,000, and it

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was converting to Islam, and the fourth option was heading. So I had

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previously been talking about conversing and considering it,

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actually, since I was in Chechnya -- beheading. So you could say this is

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a bad time a good time, but I converted. It was certainly quite an

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active prompt for you to consider it. It is the weirdest way to

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convert. Are you now fully observant Muslim? Yes. So here is the question

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for you. You have spent the last few years focusing on radical, militant,

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jihadist Islam. You yourself are now unidentified Muslim. Yes. Is there

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something profoundly different about the militants that are steeped in

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this extreme form of Islamist ideology, that separates them out

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from all the other militants you have worked with over the years, in

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quite a Molik, Peru, Sri Lanka, Burma, you have met all sorts of

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Muslims but is there something identifiably different about

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Islamist jihadist militants -- Guatemala. Actually, not really. I

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mean, you find... Let's say I was in Peru, the very extreme Maoist group,

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and they in a way, in a sense they were like a religious cult. I mean,

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they were speaking about a party, like it was heaven. That the

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President was a messiah to them. So do something similar, you no, with

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all these groups, and it comes down to the motivation. Of course, if you

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are religious you know that you are going to have an if you die in the

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struggle. If you are at an atheist, you just die. And all these people

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that you're currently working with, or have been in Syria, the jihadist

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to want to die, in your mind there is no doubt of their religious

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conviction. They truly believe this stuff. Of course, yes. Otherwise

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they couldn't have done it. So just to end, when you think about Syria

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today and the confrontation between a start's forces, the various

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terrorist groups but in particular the Islamist radical groups, where

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it is the balance of power lie in your view? -- Assad's forces. Assad

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has the power, but these people have the belief. I think Assad without

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foreign intervention, without Hezbollah from Lebanon, without

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uranium troops, without Russian air power, he would be finished quite

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quickly. And then what would happen with Syria, I mean, I wouldn't know.

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Will you go back to find out? Sure. Paul Refsdal, thank you for being on

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HARDtalk. Thank you. Thank you very much indeed.

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