Omar Zakhilwal, Afghanistan's Ambassador to Pakistan HARDtalk


Omar Zakhilwal, Afghanistan's Ambassador to Pakistan

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Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalkful nil

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Welcome to HARDtalk. When Ashraf Ghani became President of

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Afghanistan two years ago, he talked about new diplomatic co-operation

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with Pakistan to end the war with the Taliban. As so often before,

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hopes have been dashed. The war goes on. Relations between Kabul and

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Islamabad have soured and the Afghan people still live with a

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dysfunctional Government and a broken economy. My guest is

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Afghanistan's ambassador to Pakistan, Omar Zakhiwal. Is

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Afghanistan beyondal vagus? -- beyond salvation.

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Ambassador Omar Zakhilwal in Islamabad, welcome to HARDtalk.

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Let's start with the relationship that you monitor very closely,

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that between your country and Pakistan.

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When Ashraf Ghani was inaugurated president, he talked of establishing

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a new relationship working together to try and make peace

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These days, his tone is very different.

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We certainly wanted to see results on the ground.

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What he believed in, he still believes.

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But the road to peace in Afghanistan goes through Pakistan.

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But Pakistan having influence over the Taliban, who are fighting

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the government of Afghanistan for the past many years,

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do listen to certain influential institutions in this country.

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These institutions will be helpful in bringing the Taliban

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to the negotiating table and this will lead to peace.

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In order to get there of course we need also to first change

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the nature of our relationship with Pakistan, a relationship

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that was certainly had very little trust.

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President Ashraf Ghani when he tried to change the path into a path

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in which we would develop trust between the two nations,

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and of course the multi-dimensional nature of the relationship

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between Afghanistan and Pakistan gives us the opportunity

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That's the point I'm trying to get to.

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The Pakistanis have delivered in a sense on their part

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of the bargain, they brought the Taliban to the negotiating

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They had that first round of talks last year in Murree in Pakistan.

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This year the Pakistanis have clearly still been talking

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to the Taliban about engaging with you guys in some

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And yet you, your government has now sort of closed the curtains on that.

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Just a few months ago Ashraf Ghani said no more talks.

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They haven't brought the Taliban for negotiations to whom we said no.

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President Ashraf Ghani has not lowered the curtains on talks,

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in fact talks continue to be our preferred

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It was Afghanistan who proposed the quadrilateral,

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it was Afghanistan within the quadrilateral which includes

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the Chinese, the Americans and Afghanistan, pushed Pakistan

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to bring the Taliban to the negotiating table.

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But it was the Taliban who rejected peace talks publicly

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and it was the Taliban who started the spring offensive and the Taliban

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who carried out some of the most heinous terrorist attacks in Kabul,

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most notably the April 19 bombing which killed hundreds of innocent

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The Taliban are probably never going to stop the fight and put down

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all of their arms while a dialogue and negotiations are underway.

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Within the quadrilateral we did not put any particular conditions.

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We said, they join peace talks which will lead to this coalition

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But the Taliban rejected peace talks categorically and they

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You are putting all the blame on the Taliban, but it is your

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president Ashraf Ghani who made a speech late in April saying

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the Taliban now are regarded by us as nothing but terrorists.

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We will crack down on them, we will take military action

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to destroy them, and we expect Pakistan to do the same.

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And if Pakistan doesn't do the same will ask the international community

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President Omar Zakhilwal at the end of April said a statement exactly

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taken out from the quadrilateral road map to peace talks

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that was agreed between the Chinese, the Americans, Pakistan and us.

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That said, the Taliban would be invited to join peace talks

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and those who renounce peace talks...

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There were within the road map next steps that would be taken and those

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next steps included operations against them.

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With the start of the spring offensive and most particularly

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with this really major suicide bombing they carried out on the 19th

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of April, which killed and injured hundreds of people,

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that was a clear statement by the Taliban that they had

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As per the quadrilateral road map, steps needed to be taken and that's

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Let's not get too stuck on the details of the

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Let's stick on what really matters, your relationship

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In the end if there isn't co-operation and trust

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between you and Pakistan it's hard to see that there will ever be

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We all know that Taliban leaders still have safe haven

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For a time you appeared to be able to live with that, now

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you are saying that is completely unacceptable.

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Let's get this out in the open, the fact Taliban leaders

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have the ability to travel around Pakistan, appeared to be offered

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haven in Pakistan, is that a fundamental stumbling

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Again, the public statements from Pakistan is that they would not

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allow anybody who threatened Afghanistan security who were

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fighting against the legitimate Afghan government.

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And that's exactly what we want the Pakistani government to live up

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In those public statements of course means that those who threaten Afghan

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security and leadership is, if has offices here and if they have

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meetings here, if they lead the war in Afghanistan from here,

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then as per the public statements from Pakistan you should not be

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You don't trust the Pakistani that all?

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There is already so much mistrust between the states so I'm not

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going to use the word whether I'd trust or don't trust.

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But what I'm going to say is that actions have not met the public

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statements as far as, again the steps are concerned

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with respect to the Taliban's offices, movements and all that.

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Let's get some quickfire questions with quickfire responses.

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We know the Taliban has a new leader, their last leader

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There's a new leader Haibatullah Akhundzada.

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Have you got any reason to believe that he's more interested

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a dialogue, negotiations and peace deal than his predecessors?

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But I do believe that under pressure they will have to come

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As they did last year when that was tried.

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In the beginning, if the support is there, if the offices

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are there and they are not touched, of course there are limits

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within the Taliban, they believe in fighting,

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and therefore they will not come forward.

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And therefore, pressure is needed.

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The Pakistani say that you in Afghanistan are harbouring

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some of the people in the Pakistani Taliban

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who are fighting against Pakistani forces inside Pakistani,

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you're offering safe haven to terrorists damaging

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The most heinous criminal in the TTP, who was the mastermind

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of the Army public school which was targeted in Afghanistan

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a few weeks ago as per the order of the president, full endorsement

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of the President by the Americans of course, and was eliminated along

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At the end of 2014, the beginning of 2015, there were other culprits

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at the technical level, the operational level.

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They were busted by the Afghan side and handed over to Pakistan.

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There was a leader of the TTP who was arrested by the Americans,

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handed over to Afghanistan, Latif Mehsud was his name,

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he was handed over to Pakistani intelligence and security forces...

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In that case, if you're so keen on offering mutual security

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guarantees to the Pakistanis, and not harbouring any "Terrorists"

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who are seeking to do damage Pakistan, why are you so opposed

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to the Pakistani fortifying the border with you?

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They are putting up fortified fences, you say that's not right,

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that they shouldn't be doing it, it would seem to me that it's just

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one way of guaranteeing that the bad guys don't pass easily

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The one-way which would guarantee an effective elimination

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to terrorism would be the change of policy.

:11:20.:11:21.

Good fences make good neighbours, Ambassador.

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And there is the similar nation living on both sides.

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Those are, I would say, not the real issues.

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The trouble is you don't accept the international border,

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For practical purposes, we haven't challenged Pakistan's

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presence on this side of the Durand Line, have we?

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Your politicians still call it a historic evil, that

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Well, they call it historic but have we challenged Pakistan's presents

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It comes down to this question of trust.

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It's another way in which you and the Pakistani state seem

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But let's move on, because there are so many important things

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You've said that right now, there cannot be negotiations

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because the Taliban, you say, is committed

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I thought you just said that that's why Ashraf Ghani isn't

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If the Taliban come forward to negotiate, will be

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Sure, but you've just told me the Taliban are letting off bombs,

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they've launched a spring offensive...

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Yes, if they do what would be our response?

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If they do come forward to peace talks and continued to attack,

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then of course our response would be to counterattack.

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The bottom line is, right now the focus is on the battlefield.

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I would put it to you that if you look at all the news coming

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out of the battlefield, your forces are doing very badly.

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This year you've lost 5% more of your national territory

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to the Taliban than at the beginning of the year.

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The aim of the Taliban was to capture a few cities

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They haven't captured any major city, any major township.

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They have lost quite a big number of their people.

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Their aim was in fact to overthrow the government.

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I don't know which war you're watching Ambassador,

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but General John Nicholson the commander of US forces

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in Afghanistan says "The security situation in Afghanistan has been

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deteriorating rather than improving".

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Deteriorating because there's more fighting, because of the fighting

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But our security forces have shown resilience, they've shown

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And they are inflicting very heavy casualties on the Taliban.

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I know you're paid to represent your government in the most positive

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light but again, I don't know quite what you're reading but I'm reading

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the last official US status report on the Afghan army which says,

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and this is from the spring of this year," the Afghan National Army has

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begun experiencing serious problems in recruitment,

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the Army also experienced a resurgence of ghost soldiering,

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soldiers supposed to be on parade but don't show up and appointments

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to senior positions are still heavily influenced by political

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interference, often resulting in the appointment

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It is there and has been identified recently.

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Ghost soldiers was an issue that was there all along,

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it has been discovered and therefore it's a positive thing

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that we are finding this has happened.

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Within the Army, promotion has been merit-based.

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It was within the police that it was not so much merit based

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Therefore if you see the morale of our forces this year compared

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We get more involved in the offensive than we are

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And therefore, if you compared to where we are this year compared

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to last year, I think we are in a better standing.

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You know, I don't always have the greatest memory but I do

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remember that I first spoke to you in 2010 when you finance

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And you then assured me that very soon, very quickly,

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Afghanistan would be self-sufficient in military terms.

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Here we are six years later and Barack Obama has just had

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to postpone the latest draw down of US forces.

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They still got 8400 soldiers in the field in Afghanistan.

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It's clearly, in American terms, too risky to draw down

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You are frankly no closer to being truly militarily

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self-sufficient than you were back then.

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We will be militarily self-sufficient tomorrow,

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if this unjustified war is not imposed on us.

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If we get the needed support within the region to put

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So tomorrow we don't even need this many forces

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That is the most secular argument I've ever heard.

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You know better than me, one of the things the Taliban says

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is that they won't contemplate a peace deal with you until all

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"Foreign occupiers" are out of Afghanistan.

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At some point you're going to have do wean yourselves off

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the international trainers and military advisers and personnel.

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I'm just asking you, when is that going to be?

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Right now we have 10,000 troops on the ground.

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Wouldn't that indicate more self-sufficiency

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It would be if you were winning, but you're not.

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But we are still holding the same as we were holding

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So we are doing not only our job but the job of 130,000 foreign

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So therefore shouldn't that be an indication of more strength

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I guess the issue isn't just about dependency in military terms,

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You as a former finance minister know more about this than most

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I think I'm right in saying that over 90% of Afghanistan's GDP

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still comes from international overseas aid and assistance.

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When are you going to get anywhere near a functioning economy?

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Right now your economy is in a terrible state

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Well be first necessary thing is for the war to stop,

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Once peace returns and war stops, and of course that's

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when the environment for economic growth,

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sustainable, robust economic growth will be laid.

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In essence you're telling me that the Taliban maintains

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It gives them enormous leverage to tell me that there is no way

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we can even begin to fix our economy until the Taliban problem is solved.

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No, no, OK in the terms of under the circumstances.

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But of course, with the fighting in Afghanistan, how our

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international investors are there to come and invest

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in Afghanistan with all the natural and mineral resources we have

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is to be exploited for the benefit of us and the benefit of investors?

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In that case, maybe you're being less frank when you say

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as you said before, that again Afghanistan is on the path

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to self-sufficiency in terms of its own economic future...

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It's not going to be on the path to self-sufficiency

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when we have a continuous war in Afghanistan.

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And therefore, I'm saying that war must stop, peace must return,

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and then we will be on the path to self-sufficiency.

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You're putting all the blame on the war.

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Surely it would be wiser to look at some of the internal problems

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in your country and perhaps acknowledge that actually not

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all of Afghanistan's current problems, and they are so profound,

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You have one great achievement in the world, and I use that word

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very loosely, in that you remain pretty much the most corrupt

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And you can't blame the war and the Taliban for that.

:19:44.:19:48.

Certainly we are a state that is in the making.

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65% of our ordinary budget is spent on security.

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That can tell you whether war has impact on our aspects

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So that certainly still contributes to it.

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But then of course new institutions, aid by itself is corrupting.

:20:31.:20:33.

Again, when you have a country that is so dependent on aid,

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and within Afghanistan you don't have one institution...

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So many different institutions, because every foreign institution

:20:39.:20:48.

that brings assistance to Afghanistan manages by itself.

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So it becomes extremely difficult to bring in an effective

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I ask this very brutal question, because it seems to me it's

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a question the Afghan people would put to you.

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Is there anybody close to power in Afghanistan who is not

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Since we last spoke, you yourself in a famous New Yorker

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article were accused of taking suitcases full of cash and giving

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them directly to the president to run his political campaign.

:21:09.:21:11.

The contribution was made to the President's election.

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But I have not taken any suitcase from anybody and handed it over

:21:31.:21:33.

If you go back and check the New Yorker that's not how

:21:34.:21:38.

In Afghanistan with this type of image, this of course

:21:39.:21:43.

is perception based, any rumour can stick to anybody.

:21:44.:21:45.

With the New Yorker and with the others,

:21:46.:21:51.

But when I ask for investigation, not one but two investigations

:21:52.:21:58.

to take place against me, and those to place and they found

:21:59.:22:02.

nothing and this was publicised, no international media took interest

:22:03.:22:05.

When it comes to corruption, or even negative news,

:22:06.:22:12.

everybody would be interested and would be happy to make it

:22:13.:22:16.

front-page headline, when of course those things

:22:17.:22:19.

are proven wrong you want not find anybody to come and even give it

:22:20.:22:22.

Let's end with a final thought about the political future

:22:23.:22:31.

You've got a national unity government which frankly doesn't

:22:32.:22:34.

You've got the Americans in the form of James Clapper the director of US

:22:35.:22:40.

national intelligence, saying that he sees 2016

:22:41.:22:42.

as "presenting a serious risk of political breakdown

:22:43.:22:47.

in your country, waning political cohesion, increasingly assertive

:22:48.:22:49.

local power brokers, financial shortfalls

:22:50.:22:51.

Is 2016 potentially going to be a year of breakdown

:22:52.:23:06.

I think under these circumstances the National unity government

:23:07.:23:10.

The fact that it survived for two years and is still functioning has

:23:11.:23:14.

already contradicted many pundits who predicted an immediate collapse

:23:15.:23:17.

The opposition outside the government are acting very

:23:18.:23:20.

They certainly would not want to push the government

:23:21.:23:29.

With the type of national unity government we have,

:23:30.:23:41.

if it was anywhere it would have its challenges

:23:42.:23:44.

and difficulties, but like I said, it was a government that came

:23:45.:23:47.

And still was put together, and the fact it is still

:23:48.:23:59.

functioning, I think is an enormously positive

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Looking forward, having said that we of course

:24:02.:24:03.

But the fact is that we do remain positive and optimistic

:24:04.:24:07.

Optimism is coming loud and clear from Islamabad.

:24:08.:24:11.

Thank you very much for joining us on HARDtalk.

:24:12.:24:14.

Thank you for inviting me and having me.

:24:15.:24:29.

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