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Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalkful nil | :00:00. | :00:11. | |
Welcome to HARDtalk. When Ashraf Ghani became President of | :00:12. | :00:20. | |
Afghanistan two years ago, he talked about new diplomatic co-operation | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
with Pakistan to end the war with the Taliban. As so often before, | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
hopes have been dashed. The war goes on. Relations between Kabul and | :00:29. | :00:34. | |
Islamabad have soured and the Afghan people still live with a | :00:35. | :00:37. | |
dysfunctional Government and a broken economy. My guest is | :00:38. | :00:44. | |
Afghanistan's ambassador to Pakistan, Omar Zakhiwal. Is | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
Afghanistan beyondal vagus? -- beyond salvation. | :00:50. | :01:14. | |
Ambassador Omar Zakhilwal in Islamabad, welcome to HARDtalk. | :01:15. | :01:15. | |
Let's start with the relationship that you monitor very closely, | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
that between your country and Pakistan. | :01:21. | :01:21. | |
When Ashraf Ghani was inaugurated president, he talked of establishing | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
a new relationship working together to try and make peace | :01:28. | :01:29. | |
These days, his tone is very different. | :01:30. | :01:36. | |
We certainly wanted to see results on the ground. | :01:37. | :01:43. | |
What he believed in, he still believes. | :01:44. | :01:54. | |
But the road to peace in Afghanistan goes through Pakistan. | :01:55. | :01:56. | |
But Pakistan having influence over the Taliban, who are fighting | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
the government of Afghanistan for the past many years, | :02:00. | :02:01. | |
do listen to certain influential institutions in this country. | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
These institutions will be helpful in bringing the Taliban | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
to the negotiating table and this will lead to peace. | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
In order to get there of course we need also to first change | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
the nature of our relationship with Pakistan, a relationship | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
that was certainly had very little trust. | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
President Ashraf Ghani when he tried to change the path into a path | :02:28. | :02:34. | |
in which we would develop trust between the two nations, | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
and of course the multi-dimensional nature of the relationship | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
between Afghanistan and Pakistan gives us the opportunity | :02:41. | :02:42. | |
That's the point I'm trying to get to. | :02:43. | :02:49. | |
The Pakistanis have delivered in a sense on their part | :02:50. | :02:56. | |
of the bargain, they brought the Taliban to the negotiating | :02:57. | :02:59. | |
They had that first round of talks last year in Murree in Pakistan. | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
This year the Pakistanis have clearly still been talking | :03:04. | :03:05. | |
to the Taliban about engaging with you guys in some | :03:06. | :03:08. | |
And yet you, your government has now sort of closed the curtains on that. | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
Just a few months ago Ashraf Ghani said no more talks. | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
They haven't brought the Taliban for negotiations to whom we said no. | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
President Ashraf Ghani has not lowered the curtains on talks, | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
in fact talks continue to be our preferred | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
It was Afghanistan who proposed the quadrilateral, | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
it was Afghanistan within the quadrilateral which includes | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
the Chinese, the Americans and Afghanistan, pushed Pakistan | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
to bring the Taliban to the negotiating table. | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
But it was the Taliban who rejected peace talks publicly | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
and it was the Taliban who started the spring offensive and the Taliban | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
who carried out some of the most heinous terrorist attacks in Kabul, | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
most notably the April 19 bombing which killed hundreds of innocent | :04:01. | :04:07. | |
The Taliban are probably never going to stop the fight and put down | :04:08. | :04:14. | |
all of their arms while a dialogue and negotiations are underway. | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
Within the quadrilateral we did not put any particular conditions. | :04:21. | :04:30. | |
We said, they join peace talks which will lead to this coalition | :04:31. | :04:41. | |
But the Taliban rejected peace talks categorically and they | :04:42. | :04:50. | |
You are putting all the blame on the Taliban, but it is your | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
president Ashraf Ghani who made a speech late in April saying | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
the Taliban now are regarded by us as nothing but terrorists. | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
We will crack down on them, we will take military action | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
to destroy them, and we expect Pakistan to do the same. | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
And if Pakistan doesn't do the same will ask the international community | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
President Omar Zakhilwal at the end of April said a statement exactly | :05:15. | :05:28. | |
taken out from the quadrilateral road map to peace talks | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
that was agreed between the Chinese, the Americans, Pakistan and us. | :05:32. | :05:38. | |
That said, the Taliban would be invited to join peace talks | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
and those who renounce peace talks... | :05:43. | :05:50. | |
There were within the road map next steps that would be taken and those | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
next steps included operations against them. | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
With the start of the spring offensive and most particularly | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
with this really major suicide bombing they carried out on the 19th | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
of April, which killed and injured hundreds of people, | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
that was a clear statement by the Taliban that they had | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
As per the quadrilateral road map, steps needed to be taken and that's | :06:21. | :06:27. | |
Let's not get too stuck on the details of the | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
Let's stick on what really matters, your relationship | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
In the end if there isn't co-operation and trust | :06:40. | :06:57. | |
between you and Pakistan it's hard to see that there will ever be | :06:58. | :07:00. | |
We all know that Taliban leaders still have safe haven | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
For a time you appeared to be able to live with that, now | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
you are saying that is completely unacceptable. | :07:10. | :07:11. | |
Let's get this out in the open, the fact Taliban leaders | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
have the ability to travel around Pakistan, appeared to be offered | :07:15. | :07:17. | |
haven in Pakistan, is that a fundamental stumbling | :07:18. | :07:19. | |
Again, the public statements from Pakistan is that they would not | :07:20. | :07:27. | |
allow anybody who threatened Afghanistan security who were | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
fighting against the legitimate Afghan government. | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
And that's exactly what we want the Pakistani government to live up | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
In those public statements of course means that those who threaten Afghan | :07:40. | :07:51. | |
security and leadership is, if has offices here and if they have | :07:52. | :07:59. | |
meetings here, if they lead the war in Afghanistan from here, | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
then as per the public statements from Pakistan you should not be | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
You don't trust the Pakistani that all? | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
There is already so much mistrust between the states so I'm not | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
going to use the word whether I'd trust or don't trust. | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
But what I'm going to say is that actions have not met the public | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
statements as far as, again the steps are concerned | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
with respect to the Taliban's offices, movements and all that. | :08:31. | :08:38. | |
Let's get some quickfire questions with quickfire responses. | :08:39. | :08:40. | |
We know the Taliban has a new leader, their last leader | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
There's a new leader Haibatullah Akhundzada. | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
Have you got any reason to believe that he's more interested | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
a dialogue, negotiations and peace deal than his predecessors? | :08:55. | :08:57. | |
But I do believe that under pressure they will have to come | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
As they did last year when that was tried. | :09:04. | :09:10. | |
In the beginning, if the support is there, if the offices | :09:11. | :09:18. | |
are there and they are not touched, of course there are limits | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
within the Taliban, they believe in fighting, | :09:22. | :09:29. | |
and therefore they will not come forward. | :09:30. | :09:31. | |
And therefore, pressure is needed. | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
The Pakistani say that you in Afghanistan are harbouring | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
some of the people in the Pakistani Taliban | :09:41. | :09:42. | |
who are fighting against Pakistani forces inside Pakistani, | :09:43. | :09:44. | |
you're offering safe haven to terrorists damaging | :09:45. | :09:46. | |
The most heinous criminal in the TTP, who was the mastermind | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
of the Army public school which was targeted in Afghanistan | :09:51. | :10:03. | |
a few weeks ago as per the order of the president, full endorsement | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
of the President by the Americans of course, and was eliminated along | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
At the end of 2014, the beginning of 2015, there were other culprits | :10:10. | :10:17. | |
at the technical level, the operational level. | :10:18. | :10:24. | |
They were busted by the Afghan side and handed over to Pakistan. | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
There was a leader of the TTP who was arrested by the Americans, | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
handed over to Afghanistan, Latif Mehsud was his name, | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
he was handed over to Pakistani intelligence and security forces... | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
In that case, if you're so keen on offering mutual security | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
guarantees to the Pakistanis, and not harbouring any "Terrorists" | :10:51. | :10:53. | |
who are seeking to do damage Pakistan, why are you so opposed | :10:54. | :11:04. | |
to the Pakistani fortifying the border with you? | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
They are putting up fortified fences, you say that's not right, | :11:08. | :11:09. | |
that they shouldn't be doing it, it would seem to me that it's just | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
one way of guaranteeing that the bad guys don't pass easily | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
The one-way which would guarantee an effective elimination | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
to terrorism would be the change of policy. | :11:20. | :11:21. | |
Good fences make good neighbours, Ambassador. | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
And there is the similar nation living on both sides. | :11:27. | :11:37. | |
Those are, I would say, not the real issues. | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
The trouble is you don't accept the international border, | :11:43. | :11:44. | |
For practical purposes, we haven't challenged Pakistan's | :11:45. | :11:52. | |
presence on this side of the Durand Line, have we? | :11:53. | :12:01. | |
Your politicians still call it a historic evil, that | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
Well, they call it historic but have we challenged Pakistan's presents | :12:05. | :12:11. | |
It comes down to this question of trust. | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
It's another way in which you and the Pakistani state seem | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
But let's move on, because there are so many important things | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
You've said that right now, there cannot be negotiations | :12:23. | :12:25. | |
because the Taliban, you say, is committed | :12:26. | :12:27. | |
I thought you just said that that's why Ashraf Ghani isn't | :12:28. | :12:34. | |
If the Taliban come forward to negotiate, will be | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
Sure, but you've just told me the Taliban are letting off bombs, | :12:41. | :12:43. | |
they've launched a spring offensive... | :12:44. | :12:45. | |
Yes, if they do what would be our response? | :12:46. | :12:47. | |
If they do come forward to peace talks and continued to attack, | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
then of course our response would be to counterattack. | :12:51. | :12:52. | |
The bottom line is, right now the focus is on the battlefield. | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
I would put it to you that if you look at all the news coming | :12:58. | :13:00. | |
out of the battlefield, your forces are doing very badly. | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
This year you've lost 5% more of your national territory | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
to the Taliban than at the beginning of the year. | :13:08. | :13:09. | |
The aim of the Taliban was to capture a few cities | :13:10. | :13:17. | |
They haven't captured any major city, any major township. | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
They have lost quite a big number of their people. | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
Their aim was in fact to overthrow the government. | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
I don't know which war you're watching Ambassador, | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
but General John Nicholson the commander of US forces | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
in Afghanistan says "The security situation in Afghanistan has been | :13:38. | :13:39. | |
deteriorating rather than improving". | :13:40. | :13:42. | |
Deteriorating because there's more fighting, because of the fighting | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
But our security forces have shown resilience, they've shown | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
And they are inflicting very heavy casualties on the Taliban. | :13:50. | :14:01. | |
I know you're paid to represent your government in the most positive | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
light but again, I don't know quite what you're reading but I'm reading | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
the last official US status report on the Afghan army which says, | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
and this is from the spring of this year," the Afghan National Army has | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
begun experiencing serious problems in recruitment, | :14:15. | :14:23. | |
the Army also experienced a resurgence of ghost soldiering, | :14:24. | :14:25. | |
soldiers supposed to be on parade but don't show up and appointments | :14:26. | :14:28. | |
to senior positions are still heavily influenced by political | :14:29. | :14:30. | |
interference, often resulting in the appointment | :14:31. | :14:32. | |
It is there and has been identified recently. | :14:33. | :14:44. | |
Ghost soldiers was an issue that was there all along, | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
it has been discovered and therefore it's a positive thing | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
that we are finding this has happened. | :14:55. | :14:56. | |
Within the Army, promotion has been merit-based. | :14:57. | :14:58. | |
It was within the police that it was not so much merit based | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
Therefore if you see the morale of our forces this year compared | :15:02. | :15:12. | |
We get more involved in the offensive than we are | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
And therefore, if you compared to where we are this year compared | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
to last year, I think we are in a better standing. | :15:22. | :15:23. | |
You know, I don't always have the greatest memory but I do | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
remember that I first spoke to you in 2010 when you finance | :15:28. | :15:30. | |
And you then assured me that very soon, very quickly, | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
Afghanistan would be self-sufficient in military terms. | :15:34. | :15:35. | |
Here we are six years later and Barack Obama has just had | :15:36. | :15:38. | |
to postpone the latest draw down of US forces. | :15:39. | :15:40. | |
They still got 8400 soldiers in the field in Afghanistan. | :15:41. | :15:43. | |
It's clearly, in American terms, too risky to draw down | :15:44. | :15:45. | |
You are frankly no closer to being truly militarily | :15:46. | :15:58. | |
self-sufficient than you were back then. | :15:59. | :16:01. | |
We will be militarily self-sufficient tomorrow, | :16:02. | :16:03. | |
if this unjustified war is not imposed on us. | :16:04. | :16:05. | |
If we get the needed support within the region to put | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
So tomorrow we don't even need this many forces | :16:09. | :16:18. | |
That is the most secular argument I've ever heard. | :16:19. | :16:26. | |
You know better than me, one of the things the Taliban says | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
is that they won't contemplate a peace deal with you until all | :16:30. | :16:32. | |
"Foreign occupiers" are out of Afghanistan. | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
At some point you're going to have do wean yourselves off | :16:38. | :16:40. | |
the international trainers and military advisers and personnel. | :16:41. | :16:42. | |
I'm just asking you, when is that going to be? | :16:43. | :16:45. | |
Right now we have 10,000 troops on the ground. | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
Wouldn't that indicate more self-sufficiency | :16:51. | :16:51. | |
It would be if you were winning, but you're not. | :16:52. | :16:58. | |
But we are still holding the same as we were holding | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
So we are doing not only our job but the job of 130,000 foreign | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
So therefore shouldn't that be an indication of more strength | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
I guess the issue isn't just about dependency in military terms, | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
You as a former finance minister know more about this than most | :17:15. | :17:25. | |
I think I'm right in saying that over 90% of Afghanistan's GDP | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
still comes from international overseas aid and assistance. | :17:32. | :17:33. | |
When are you going to get anywhere near a functioning economy? | :17:34. | :17:36. | |
Right now your economy is in a terrible state | :17:37. | :17:38. | |
Well be first necessary thing is for the war to stop, | :17:39. | :17:48. | |
Once peace returns and war stops, and of course that's | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
when the environment for economic growth, | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
sustainable, robust economic growth will be laid. | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
In essence you're telling me that the Taliban maintains | :18:03. | :18:04. | |
It gives them enormous leverage to tell me that there is no way | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
we can even begin to fix our economy until the Taliban problem is solved. | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
No, no, OK in the terms of under the circumstances. | :18:13. | :18:19. | |
But of course, with the fighting in Afghanistan, how our | :18:20. | :18:21. | |
international investors are there to come and invest | :18:22. | :18:23. | |
in Afghanistan with all the natural and mineral resources we have | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
is to be exploited for the benefit of us and the benefit of investors? | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
In that case, maybe you're being less frank when you say | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
as you said before, that again Afghanistan is on the path | :18:34. | :18:36. | |
to self-sufficiency in terms of its own economic future... | :18:37. | :18:38. | |
It's not going to be on the path to self-sufficiency | :18:39. | :18:45. | |
when we have a continuous war in Afghanistan. | :18:46. | :18:47. | |
And therefore, I'm saying that war must stop, peace must return, | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
and then we will be on the path to self-sufficiency. | :18:52. | :19:05. | |
You're putting all the blame on the war. | :19:06. | :19:16. | |
Surely it would be wiser to look at some of the internal problems | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
in your country and perhaps acknowledge that actually not | :19:20. | :19:22. | |
all of Afghanistan's current problems, and they are so profound, | :19:23. | :19:30. | |
You have one great achievement in the world, and I use that word | :19:31. | :19:39. | |
very loosely, in that you remain pretty much the most corrupt | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
And you can't blame the war and the Taliban for that. | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
Certainly we are a state that is in the making. | :19:49. | :20:03. | |
65% of our ordinary budget is spent on security. | :20:04. | :20:14. | |
That can tell you whether war has impact on our aspects | :20:15. | :20:23. | |
So that certainly still contributes to it. | :20:24. | :20:30. | |
But then of course new institutions, aid by itself is corrupting. | :20:31. | :20:33. | |
Again, when you have a country that is so dependent on aid, | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
and within Afghanistan you don't have one institution... | :20:37. | :20:38. | |
So many different institutions, because every foreign institution | :20:39. | :20:48. | |
that brings assistance to Afghanistan manages by itself. | :20:49. | :20:50. | |
So it becomes extremely difficult to bring in an effective | :20:51. | :20:52. | |
I ask this very brutal question, because it seems to me it's | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
a question the Afghan people would put to you. | :20:58. | :20:59. | |
Is there anybody close to power in Afghanistan who is not | :21:00. | :21:01. | |
Since we last spoke, you yourself in a famous New Yorker | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
article were accused of taking suitcases full of cash and giving | :21:07. | :21:08. | |
them directly to the president to run his political campaign. | :21:09. | :21:11. | |
The contribution was made to the President's election. | :21:12. | :21:30. | |
But I have not taken any suitcase from anybody and handed it over | :21:31. | :21:33. | |
If you go back and check the New Yorker that's not how | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
In Afghanistan with this type of image, this of course | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
is perception based, any rumour can stick to anybody. | :21:44. | :21:45. | |
With the New Yorker and with the others, | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
But when I ask for investigation, not one but two investigations | :21:52. | :21:58. | |
to take place against me, and those to place and they found | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
nothing and this was publicised, no international media took interest | :22:03. | :22:05. | |
When it comes to corruption, or even negative news, | :22:06. | :22:12. | |
everybody would be interested and would be happy to make it | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
front-page headline, when of course those things | :22:17. | :22:19. | |
are proven wrong you want not find anybody to come and even give it | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
Let's end with a final thought about the political future | :22:23. | :22:31. | |
You've got a national unity government which frankly doesn't | :22:32. | :22:34. | |
You've got the Americans in the form of James Clapper the director of US | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
national intelligence, saying that he sees 2016 | :22:41. | :22:42. | |
as "presenting a serious risk of political breakdown | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
in your country, waning political cohesion, increasingly assertive | :22:48. | :22:49. | |
local power brokers, financial shortfalls | :22:50. | :22:51. | |
Is 2016 potentially going to be a year of breakdown | :22:52. | :23:06. | |
I think under these circumstances the National unity government | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
The fact that it survived for two years and is still functioning has | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
already contradicted many pundits who predicted an immediate collapse | :23:15. | :23:17. | |
The opposition outside the government are acting very | :23:18. | :23:20. | |
They certainly would not want to push the government | :23:21. | :23:29. | |
With the type of national unity government we have, | :23:30. | :23:41. | |
if it was anywhere it would have its challenges | :23:42. | :23:44. | |
and difficulties, but like I said, it was a government that came | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
And still was put together, and the fact it is still | :23:48. | :23:59. | |
functioning, I think is an enormously positive | :24:00. | :24:01. | |
Looking forward, having said that we of course | :24:02. | :24:03. | |
But the fact is that we do remain positive and optimistic | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
Optimism is coming loud and clear from Islamabad. | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
Thank you very much for joining us on HARDtalk. | :24:12. | :24:14. | |
Thank you for inviting me and having me. | :24:15. | :24:29. |