Lindsey Graham - US Senator HARDtalk


Lindsey Graham - US Senator

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Now it is time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to HARDtalk, from Lake Como in Italy.

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I'm Sarah Montague, and I'm here at the annual Ambrosetti Forum,

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where some of the world's big thinkers and politicians are meeting

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to consider some of the challenges we face.

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They voted that one of the biggest risks to the world

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is the American presidential election.

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Among those here, the Senator Lindsey Graham.

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He said that Donald Trump is a jackass, and that their party,

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the Republicans, should unendorse him as their candidate

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for president.

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Senator Graham was a candidate himself.

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He is widely respected on foreign affairs and has warned that

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Donald Trump has no understanding of the world and is not fit to be

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America's commander-in-chief.

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So, what happens if he ends up as America's President?

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Lindsey Graham, welcome to HARDtalk.

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Thank you for having me.

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"Not fit to be America's commander-in-chief".

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Why?

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What is so wrong with Donald Trump?

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That was my view at the primary, and the way you become

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commander-in-chief is not have to impress me, but the voters.

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I think temperament and judgment are his biggest problems right now.

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He is winning in three areas.

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Best able to defeat Isil when you ask the American people,

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Clinton - Trump.

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Trump.

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Best able to handle the economy?

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Trump, not Clinton.

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Best able to bring change to Washington -

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Trump, not Clinton.

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With those three back things going for you,

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how are you losing?

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He loses to her simply because people are worried

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about his judgment, temperament and experience

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to be commander-in-chief.

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The Republicans should win this year because in our country,

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it's very hard for one party to control the White House

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for 12 years.

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There is some Obama fatigue.

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But his inability to convince the American people as an individual

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that he can deal with the crises that come with being

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commander-in-chief is the reason he's losing, and if he can overcome

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that, then he could actually win this election.

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But what are your fears about him?

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That judgment, that temperament, what do you think,

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if he were in the position of being President of the United States,

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that he could do?

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I don't believe he's going to wake up one day and create World War III.

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He has a family and children, in fact, grandchildren.

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I don't think he's mentally unstable, I just think his world

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view is something to me that's perplexing.

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Putin is not our friend.

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When you look at Putin as a potential ally,

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I think you misunderstand where Putin's coming from.

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Syria - I understand the idea of being aggressive against Isil,

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but you're not going to win the war from the air,

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and he talks about leaving Assad in power.

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I have been to Iraq and Afghanistan 38 times and I have learned

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that the Arabs will not accept Assad staying in power in Syria

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because he is a proxy and puppet of Iran.

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At the end of the day, when it comes to Middle East

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politics, sizing up people, who is your enemy, who is your

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friend, a lot of concern there.

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We will look at the detail of that in a minute,

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but in terms of getting to the point where you say he is not fit to be

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America's commander-in-chief, that doesn't sound...

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There are plenty of people you disagree with on policy,

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not least President Obama.

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And Secretary Clinton.

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I disagree with her.

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My belief is the way he has handled himself has led to that conclusion

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on my part, but I see change.

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I see him actually getting a bit better.

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For example, on Muslims, and you said that what he said

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on the Islamic world, one thing you cannot do is declare

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war declare war on Islam itself, and you said he had done that.

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He has changed his position slightly on who will be allowed into a Trump

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America.

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So to the American people and to our friends in Great Britain,

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you can't win the war without partners in the faith.

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The one thing you don't want to do as leader of the West is declare war

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on the religion.

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So, when you ban all Muslims, you're basically saying

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that the faith itself is the problem.

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There are elements within the faith that most people within the faith

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reject, that have to be dealt with in partnerships.

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So you see change.

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It is actually encouraging the understanding that we need

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partnerships.

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He talks about the King of Jordan in glowing terms.

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Now he says that the ban will be directed towards countries

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and people who have a history of terrorism, which is different

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than banning an entire religion.

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But it is from any nation that has been comprised by terrorism,

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which is arguably almost any country in the world.

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Almost every country has a terrorism problem.

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There way you win the war, there is no capital to conquer,

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no air force to shoot down, no navy to sink.

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We are fighting an ideology.

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Here is the good news, and this is what I would tell

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Mr Trump and Secretary Clinton.

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Most people in the faith are not buying what Isil are selling.

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The young people of the Islamic world don't want to go

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to the 11th century.

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Most fathers and mothers do not want to turn their daughters over

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to Isil, so how do you defeat this ideology?

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You have to build up the lives of others.

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We have to provide a hope for life to compete with the glorious death.

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When Trump says we can't nation build any longer,

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that's disturbing to me.

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All these things are things are things that other politicians say.

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You have said that your fellow Republicans should unendorse him

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as their candidate.

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That was during the primaries.

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Are you not saying that now?

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You can endorse him if you like.

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Here's our nominee and he won.

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That ship has sailed.

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I'm not going to vote for him nor her.

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Who would you vote for?

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Probably John McCain.

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I will write in somebody.

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You will write in someone else's name - that is a waste, isn't it?

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Isn't that like giving a vote to Hillary Clinton?

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I hear that a lot.

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At the end of the day, here's what I think.

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I'm a person like anyone else and I have to be convinced

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that the person I'm voting for is capable of doing the job.

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Maybe Mr Trump gets me there over time, but right now,

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I don't feel like I have a choice.

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Most Americans feel like the two choices we have

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are woefully unacceptable.

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I feel your pain.

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She is highly distrusted.

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He seems to be a bit shaky, to be nice.

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Bit shaky?

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In the eyes of the American people.

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We're talking about you.

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You've said of him, if we nominate Trump,

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we will get destroyed and we will deserve it.

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Well, you did, and now you're saying, well,

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maybe he's OK.

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I think that what he's doing is making all the problems we had

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in 2012 worse.

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He gave a speech a couple of days ago about immigration.

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We're not going to deport 11 million people.

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We can deport felons and croks, but we're not going to win

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the election unless we do better with Hispanics.

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Bush got 44% in 2004, we're down to 27%.

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I believe...

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And even lower according to some polls.

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I don't know where Trump will wind up, but here is what I do know.

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I'm not going to vote for someone who would deport my grandmother.

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What Mr Trump doesn't realise is these 11 million illegal

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immigrants have children and grandchildren who are US citizens.

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And we need to understand as a party that the biggest impediment

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to growing amongst the Hispanic community is not our ideology,

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they are conservative, is that they view us through this

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immigration debate as harsh and intolerant.

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His numbers with young women...

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For the party to grow, for us to win the White House,

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we've got to grow among Hispanics and young women.

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Do you accept that actually all those things you're talking

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about, the problems Donald Trump has, in a way, are actually problems

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that have been brewing for decades?

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Totally.

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Absolutely.

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It's all around immigration.

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There's about 40% of the Republican primary voter who doesn't

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want to embrace the idea that some of them can stay.

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Taht they learn the language, pay the fine and get in the back

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of the line.

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The idea that they all have to go to enforce the rule of law,

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to be pure of the rule of law.

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That has divided the party.

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He seized upon that.

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What did he do...

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I am curious about is, is there something else?

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Is there something that dates back Nixon's Southern strategy,

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where almost it was dog whistle politics, and now it is just a more

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overt form of bigotry that he has capitalising on.

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I think his approach to immigration...

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Is racist?

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Yes, has a tone of "them".

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They are mostly drug dealers and mostly rapists and some of them

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are good is, one, not true.

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OK, but that is what Donald Trump says, but can he say it

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because the Republican party has kind of been leading to that point?

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The supporters the Republican party have been left

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with really have been...

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That's the signals they have been...

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That message resonates.

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He's playing to people's worst instinct and fears.

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You're going to lose your job to foreigners, I'm going to get

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you a better trade deal.

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The illegal immigrants raping your wife and selling your kid drugs.

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That message preys on people's fears because the world is changing.

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You know there are plenty of people, not least the likes of Nigel Farage,

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UK Independence Party, who come over and reinforce this

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point, which is about the little people.

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It is that people have heard from politicians,

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really, they've overpromised, and now the electorate feels

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disillusioned and betrayed.

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Well, one, I wouldn't use him as a model.

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I don't see his party doing very well.

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The bottom line is that there is anxiety among working-class

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people throughout the world.

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That the job security you once had no longer exists.

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The idea of working for one company for the rest of your life

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is probably going to be difficult to achieve,

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so when a politician comes along and says,

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I'm going to protect your job from unfair trade, there are a lot

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of people believe that, yes, we need to stop all these trade

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agreements with all these different people, because they're

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costing me my job.

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There are a lot of people believe the economy is not there for them.

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I see that.

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And all politicians are guilty of that overpromising,

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which has led to disillusionment?

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I think yes.

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I think that's a pretty fair statement.

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Here's what drives me crazy as a politician.

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When I hear a politician like Mr Trump and Secretary Clinton,

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quite frankly, saying you don't need to adjust entitlements,

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you don't need to ask younger workers to work longer before

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they get retirement and get a pension and get public health care

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benefits based on their age, that you're not doing them

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a service, because you're not going to deport 11 million people.

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I hate it when people tell folks something I hear that has not

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a snowball's chance in hell of passing.

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What happens to the Republicans?

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Let's say post-election.

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We're going to change or die.

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And what is going to happen to all the Republican voters

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or people who would have been supporting Donald Trump?

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Are they going to come back behind establishment characters like you?

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Here's what I hope they will rally around.

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If you believe in conservatism, help me sell it to a larger audience.

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If you believe it's good to have a strong military,

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so do I.

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But if you want rational immigration reform, count me in,

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but I can't promise you we're going to deport all 11 million.

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Deport the crooks.

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My goal is to have an immigration system that supplements

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the declining workforce.

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What I hope the Trump voter and all those that make up

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the mosaic of the Republican Party will focus on what we have

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in common.

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And understand that without upping our game,

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without growing the political pie, that we're going to die.

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If you're worried about four years of Hillary Clinton,

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what about 2020?

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How do we win?

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Why are we losing?

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I'm not the enemy.

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But you will know, and this is happening in many countries

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around the world, that traditional parties like the Republicans

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are fracturing because people...

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I mean, you don't behave like you're in the same party as Donald Trump.

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And yet...

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Can you really see the Republicans coming together?

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Yes, I think the desire to win will overcome our differences.

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I hope.

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How do you grow the party?

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Young people, 35 and younger.

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You may not believe in climate change, but they do.

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So I want a party that can communicate to young people.

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I'm socially conservative.

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I am pro-life.

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But I am not pro-rape.

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So if a woman is impregnated because of a rape, I think most

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people in America would say that's her decision to make.

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So on social issues, I believe in traditional families.

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But the Supreme Court has ruled.

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Let's protect the church, the mosque and the synagogue

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from performing weddings consistent with their faith,

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but not beat on people just because they have a different lifestyle.

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So many people have said the Republican Party do all this -

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talk about Trump as an inexcusable bigot and then they say while Trump

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should be our next President.

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I'm not saying that.

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I'm not supporting Mr Trump for a variety of reasons.

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You're very critical of what he says about President Putin.

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He has said, I've always felt that Russia and the United States should

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be able to work well with each other towards defeating terrorism

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and restoring world peace.

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Now what is wrong with that?

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Number one, Putin is not an agent for world peace,

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he's a disruptive influence.

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The rule of law matters to me.

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If you have a problem.

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If Scotland wants to break away from the UK, there is a process

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to do it.

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If you have British tanks outside of Scottish homes I would say

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the referendum is probably not fair.

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So the idea that the Crimea in Trump's mind, well they wanted

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to go to Russia, that's not the way you decide such events.

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The Urkaine...

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He's dismembered a neighbouring country.

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It's a proxy war between Russia and the Ukrainian people.

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He's propping up the butcher of Damascus, Assad, who is the most

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disruptive influence in the Middle East.

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So I would say that when it comes to Putin, that he is not

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a friend of freedom.

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Democracy has died inside Russia.

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Every institution of democracy has been snuffed out.

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So if you don't see that as the American president,

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you are making a huge mistake.

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Do you think he represents an existential threat

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to the United States?

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I think the way he has conducted himself is a threat to all of us.

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I think anybody who would dismember their neighbour through the force

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of arms is a threat to all of us.

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I think anybody who would keep a man like Assad in power,

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a disruptive influence time a million, in the Middle East,

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is a threat to us, yes.

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And you have said, I would literally shoot his planes down if he attacked

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the people we trained, because we have to do that.

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You were talking about those US-trained rebels in Syria.

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Here is what I would do.

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I would give the Syrian people the chance to take their country

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back and not have the American people decide who is their

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president, let them decide.

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OK, I asked a different question.

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You would be prepared to shoot down Russian planes?

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Here's the deal, if we're going to train Syrians to take Assad

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on because it's in our interests for him to go, every Arab nation

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objects to Assad being in power because he's a proxy of Iran.

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To leave him in power means that Iran basically controls yet

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another Arab capital.

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So I've concluded it is in the US interests for Assad to go.

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I don't want a war with Russia, I don't want a war with Iran,

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but they are backing Assad.

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If we're going to train the Free Syrian Army

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and they're attacked by Russian helicopters,

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or Syrian forces, we have a moral obligation to help them,

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because they don't have an Air Force.

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You've also argued for troops on the ground, for American troops

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back on the ground in Syria dealing with this.

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And Iraq.

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People would say, are you crazy, look what happened in Iraq,

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look what happened in Afghanistan?

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You know, what I would tell those people?

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Are you crazy?

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Look what's happening?

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450,000 people killed in Syria.

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You have Jordan, Syrian refugees are overrunning

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the kingdom of Jordan, one of the great allies we have.

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Are 20,000 American soldiers going to make a difference?

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Yeah, you need ten.

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It would make a huge difference.

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How do you hold the territory once you liberate Raqqa?

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Have we learned nothing from Iraq?

0:16:180:16:20

You could argue about should we have gone in, but I can promise you,

0:16:200:16:23

if we had stayed, Isil would not exist today.

0:16:230:16:26

Four years ago, his entire national security team told Obama,

0:16:260:16:29

help the Free Syrian Army while they were intact.

0:16:290:16:31

He chose not to.

0:16:310:16:32

Hezbollah came in to help Assad when he was on the ropes,

0:16:320:16:36

now the Russians are in.

0:16:360:16:37

So Assad is being helped by the Russians and Hezbollah,

0:16:370:16:40

an Iranian proxy, and the Free Syrian Army has been abandoned.

0:16:400:16:43

And Syria is ten times worse than if we had done

0:16:430:16:46

this four years ago.

0:16:460:16:47

We have a situation though where actually the Secretary

0:16:470:16:49

of State, John Kerry, has come to a deal with Moscow

0:16:490:16:52

so that there is more coordination on air strikes.

0:16:520:16:54

What a joke.

0:16:550:16:55

This whole concept that we've got to deal with

0:16:550:16:58

the Russians is a joke.

0:16:580:16:59

They're bombing the people we're training.

0:16:590:17:01

Most of their sorties flown against the Free

0:17:010:17:03

Syrian Army, not Isil.

0:17:030:17:04

Russia's interests and ours don't align.

0:17:040:17:06

They're not in there to fight Isil, they are in there to keep Assad

0:17:060:17:09

in power and as soon as we realise that, the better off we will be.

0:17:090:17:17

If you would shoot down Russian planes because there are attacking

0:17:170:17:20

Syrian rebels.

0:17:200:17:21

They would stop attacking Syrian rebels.

0:17:210:17:23

OK.

0:17:230:17:23

Is the same true for Turkey, where of course in recent fighting

0:17:230:17:26

it's hit US-backed Syrian Kurds?

0:17:260:17:27

This is the dilemma with Obama's policy.

0:17:270:17:29

As much as I dislike Erdogan, who is a Putin in the making,

0:17:290:17:33

I understand their problem.

0:17:330:17:34

The YPG Kurds are the main force we're training inside of Syria.

0:17:340:17:47

And the Turkish leader sees them as allied to the PKK.

0:17:470:17:49

And so do I.

0:17:490:17:51

So this whole construct is absurd.

0:17:510:17:52

They're relying on a Kurdish force who doesn't care about Assad.

0:17:520:18:03

But the principle of they're attacking our friends,

0:18:030:18:05

and who have done a huge amount in Syria in America's interests,

0:18:050:18:08

or aligned with America's interests, in reclaiming ground

0:18:080:18:10

from Islamic State.

0:18:100:18:15

I appreciate the fact the Kurds have fought against Isil.

0:18:150:18:18

They're ambivalent about Assad, that's why we're training them.

0:18:180:18:20

The Arabs won't fight unless you promise to take

0:18:200:18:23

Assad out.

0:18:230:18:23

Very few Arabs are coming to the fight just to fight Isil,

0:18:230:18:26

because they see Assad as a bigger threat to the long-term

0:18:260:18:30

future of Syria than Isil.

0:18:310:18:32

If Turkish aeroplanes bomb American special forces helping the Kurds,

0:18:320:18:34

that would be a terrible thing and I hope they can talk about not

0:18:340:18:38

allowing that to happen.

0:18:380:18:43

Turkey says that America must extradite Fethullah Gulen,

0:18:430:18:45

who it believes is behind the recent coup.

0:18:450:18:56

We have a process to do that.

0:18:560:18:57

Should America consider his extradition to Turkey?

0:18:570:19:01

I find Erdogan's Turkey to be a disturbing place.

0:19:010:19:04

I'd be very reluctant to send anybody back to Turkey assuming

0:19:040:19:07

they would get a fair trial, but there is a process in place.

0:19:070:19:10

Turkey is a Nato ally, but in front of us

0:19:100:19:13

we see the breakdown of institutions in Turkey.

0:19:130:19:15

The coup, nobody can support a coup if you believe

0:19:150:19:18

in the democratic process, but look what Erdogan is doing,

0:19:180:19:20

he's becoming a Putin within Nato.

0:19:210:19:31

The justice minister says if the US does not deliver Fethullah Gulen,

0:19:310:19:35

they will sacrifice relations with Turkey for the sake

0:19:350:19:37

of a terrorist.

0:19:370:19:42

I would say we have a process in the United States in terms

0:19:420:19:46

of who we extradite and how.

0:19:460:19:48

Ultimately it's going to be a political decision.

0:19:480:19:50

Yeah, well I don't know if it would be political, I don't know

0:19:500:19:54

how much of it will be the rule of law driven,

0:19:540:19:57

but I would tell our Turkish friends this.

0:19:570:19:59

The road you're going, you're going to sever relationships

0:19:590:20:02

with the United States in the west if you keep this up,

0:20:020:20:05

because no world leader will be able to sit on the sidelines

0:20:050:20:08

in perpetuity and watch Erdogan put everybody in jail he doesn't

0:20:080:20:11

like or has a paranoid view of.

0:20:110:20:13

So here's what I would say, that Turkey to me is a problem that

0:20:130:20:17

can't be ignored much longer and they are on a collision course,

0:20:170:20:20

not only with the United States but the west in general.

0:20:200:20:25

Stop while you still have a chance.

0:20:250:20:27

Let's turn to a different subject.

0:20:270:20:29

That of one of America's, one of the world's biggest companies,

0:20:290:20:32

Apple.

0:20:320:20:32

Now it has been paying an effective tax rate on its European profits of,

0:20:320:20:36

well it was 0.005% in 2014.

0:20:360:20:38

It went up to 1% in 2003.

0:20:380:20:44

That's why the EU's Competition Commissioner has said,

0:20:440:20:46

you owe 13 billion euros in back taxes.

0:20:460:20:48

Should they pay up?

0:20:490:21:01

I tell you what, Ireland is in a bind, because they're

0:21:010:21:05

attracting people to invest in Ireland with low tax rates.

0:21:050:21:07

The rest of us should understand that capital will go where it's most

0:21:070:21:11

welcome, so you can blame Apple all you like.

0:21:110:21:13

But they are a company and they have a duty

0:21:130:21:16

to their shareholders.

0:21:160:21:18

The 35% tax rate in America makes it hard for somebody

0:21:180:21:21

to stay in America.

0:21:210:21:23

If we don't lower our corporate tax rates more people are

0:21:230:21:27

going to go other places.

0:21:270:21:28

As to Ireland, did they violate European laws?

0:21:280:21:40

I can't say I'm an expert, so they will have to fight for

0:21:400:21:44

Apple.

0:21:440:21:44

Let me tell you this.

0:21:440:21:45

If the Irish government doesn't fight for the deal it gave Apple

0:21:450:21:48

and other people, then they're going to be a hard place to do

0:21:480:21:52

business in the future.

0:21:520:21:53

The whole idea of Brussels...

0:21:530:21:54

I think I know why people in England wanted to leave.

0:21:540:21:57

The idea of having a bureaucracy in Brussels more powerful

0:21:570:22:00

than your own parliament probably rubs people the wrong way.

0:22:000:22:03

OK, but there is also, as the Competition Commissioner

0:22:030:22:05

pointed out, and many people have a huge sympathy wit this,

0:22:050:22:08

they see this huge company doing what the rest of us can't do,

0:22:080:22:12

because she said, if my tax bill was 0.05% falling to 0.005%,

0:22:120:22:15

I think I'd take a second look at it.

0:22:150:22:17

We all know that, because that's how individuals have to do behave.

0:22:170:22:21

What's fair?

0:22:210:22:21

There is a process.

0:22:210:22:22

Rather than saying Apple should pay, let's let the process go forward.

0:22:220:22:26

There is an appeal process.

0:22:260:22:27

I do know this.

0:22:270:22:28

It's not surprising me that a company would go to a place

0:22:280:22:31

where there had to pay very little taxes.

0:22:310:22:34

So ultimately that is what needs to be...

0:22:340:22:36

Ultimately we need to make sure our companies pay their fair

0:22:360:22:39

share and we don't drive them away.

0:22:390:22:41

One thing Republicans can do, post-Trump, post-2016,

0:22:410:22:43

is look at some of these hedge funds that enjoy a tax rate of capital

0:22:430:22:47

gains rates versus ordinary income on transactions that probably should

0:22:470:22:49

generate ordinary income.

0:22:490:22:50

I think one of our problems for working-class people

0:22:500:22:53

is we are seeing that we favour the rich way too much.

0:22:530:22:56

I started the programme by commenting on your description

0:22:560:22:58

of Donald Trump as a jackass.

0:22:580:23:00

Now you sound like you have softened on him considerably.

0:23:000:23:03

You've pointed out a lot of criticisms you made

0:23:030:23:05

were in the primaries.

0:23:050:23:06

We are now lost to him.

0:23:060:23:08

What good does it have me to call him names after he beat me?

0:23:080:23:12

He is moving on immigration slightly in a better direction.

0:23:120:23:14

He has modified the Muslim ban.

0:23:140:23:16

There is a chance he might be president.

0:23:160:23:18

At the end of the day, if he is president, don't

0:23:180:23:21

you think he will need all the help he can get?

0:23:210:23:24

I'm a Republican.

0:23:240:23:25

If she wins, as a Democrat, I'm going to help her fix

0:23:250:23:28

an immigration system that is badly broken.

0:23:280:23:30

The next president of the United States will have

0:23:300:23:32

to make hard decisions about Iran and Syria and Iraq.

0:23:320:23:35

I'd like to help.

0:23:350:23:36

If they think we need to send troops into Iraq,

0:23:360:23:39

as a Democrat, I'd like to be the Republican saying, yes,

0:23:390:23:42

she is right to do so.

0:23:420:23:44

If we need a military presence to end the war in Syria

0:23:440:23:47

and have a sustainable victory by holding onto our gains,

0:23:470:23:50

I'd like to give the next president, including Donald Trump

0:23:500:23:52

some political cover.

0:23:520:23:53

I guess what I'm trying to tell your audience,

0:23:530:23:56

that I am 61 years old.

0:23:560:23:57

I ran for president.

0:23:570:23:58

It didn't work out for me.

0:23:580:24:00

I have a pretty good understanding what the next president

0:24:000:24:03

is going to face to the extent that if I can help them,

0:24:030:24:06

I will.

0:24:060:24:07

Senator Lindsey Graham, thank you for coming

0:24:070:24:09

on HARDtalk.

0:24:090:24:09

Thank you.

0:24:090:24:10

Thoroughly enjoyed it.

0:24:100:24:22

Well, a lot of cloud out there early Monday morning,

0:24:390:24:42

it's also very humid, misty around coasts,

0:24:420:24:44

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