Avi Dichter, chair of Israel's Foreign Affairs and Defence Committee HARDtalk

Think of Israel's turbulent history since the '67 war

and you think first of the political leaders, Golda Meir, Begin, Rabin,

Other crucial figures in Israel's story spent more time in the

shadows, like my guest today, Avi Dichter, who was head

of the Shin Bet, Israel's internal Security

Only later did he enter politics as a minister

and now a parliamentary ally of Prime Minister Netanyahu.

So how does this gatekeeper of Israel's

He talked about Israel wrestling for five

decades, with his phrase, "The tragedy of victory in the '67 war."

Do you know what he means by that?

I don't know what he means by saying that.

If you ask me about what's our aim in the Middle East, on life.

I would tell you that victory is what we need.

Victory, however long and hard the road may be.

For without victory it is impossible to survive.

Familiar words, I believe that you heard years ago

from your Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, in '41.

Let me interpret what I thought he was driving at.

The founding father, if you like, of the state of Israel

and Ben-Gurion, even a month after the massive

success of the '67 wars, he told Israelis, we must be very

If we do not hand back this occupied land very fast,

it could, in end, destroy us, and you haven't handed it back.

Well, you are speaking probably only on the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

But we have to remember that '67 war was a war that we got back to Sinai,

which is three times bigger than the whole state

You've got the Golan Heights, that was a threat to the

state of Israel, to the northern part of Israel for years, since '48.

At least Golan Heights is, until today, under the Israeli

hands, and know what is going on in Syria

and the Sinai Peninsula, three times bigger than the state

of Israel was given back to the last centimetre, in the peace

Yes, it was and the point about Sinai is there were some

Jewish settlers, but in essence it was a land with very few people.

50 years almost of occupation of millions of Palestinians.

You are right, the West Bank is the focus of this conversation,

You continue to rule these people's lives and to David Ben-Gurion

that was always going to be a profound problem for Israel.

No doubt that David Ben-Gurion, the Prime Minister, he's the leader

we ever had in the state of Israel, but to remind us that

David Ben-Gurion, at the first junction at the

state of Israel, or almost state of Israel, November '47, he had to

decide about the partition plan that says 55% to the state of Israel, 55%

of the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan valley.

We can't pass every historical moment, we don't have time to do

that. What IM trying to do is this, today, is rarely military forces

continue to occupy the West Bank. According to all international law,

East Jerusalem as taken in 1967, remains occupied territory. Do you

believe it is sustainable today for the health of Israeli society to

continue with this status quo? You know, we've tried to solve

the problem in the Gaza Strip. When in 1994, I was then the head

of the southern commander of And we handed over Gaza Strip,

except the Israeli settlements, it was all handed over to Arafat and

his troops. And in 2005, from the

Gaza Strip and we are Try and analyse what happened over

those 11 years in the In a military coup

against Mahmoud Abbas and his troops.

And we are talking about the

two-state solution. One-state solution, practically

we live in a three-state solution. The state of Israel, the Palestinian

Authority under Abbas with and the third under

Hamas in the Gaza Strip. I want you to talk,

if you would, about Israel. We talk to many Palestinians

and we investigate what they have done and are doing very directly,

but I want you to answer this question: There are people,

including a fellow head of Shin Bet in the recent past, who say

with the 50th anniversary of the occupation approaching,

it is time to consult A so-called decision

at 50, where the Israeli people have a simple

vote, do you want to continue the occupation,

or is it time to end the occupation? Stephen, to be transparent Amui

Ayalon is a good friend of mine. He's a hero in Israel, due to his

role during the leader and the Politically we are not agreeing

about many other issues. I don't think that the referendum

is the right answer to the Israelis. Maybe the right answer

to other countries. If you want to decide

about Israel about what should Israel do

in the West Bank, you have to fight in politics to become part

of the Israeli political system, Government,

Knesset and over there that is the field to decide about what and how

it is going to be solved. You are a great friend

of Ayalon ,you are a He said it during his

most recent victorious election campaign, there will be no

Palestinian state as long as I am The latest polling done

by Jerusalem Post and others finds that a majority of Israeli

adults support the idea of two states for two nations as a way out

of this endless conflict. Why not, right now,

consult the Israeli people? You know, we say: You cannot clap

hands with one hand. For years, neither under

Yasser Arafat or Abbas. Now we do understand

that when you try to go forward in the region of

the Palestinian Authority, the first block, that blocks everything

is the fact that we are not having in front of us,

with us, one Palestinian state that has one law and one for

internal security. Since then we speak about solution

for the Gaza Strip, a solution for the West Bank and when

Netanyahu said it won't be a Palestinian state as long as he's

Prime Minister, you know, if he would have met here in 1977,

September or October 1977, and we would have talked about Israeli,

Egyptian solution, nobody even And just one month

later, Beging as a Prime Minister signed

or started to run the... Mr Netanyahu is no Begin

and you know it. Right now we've had years

and years of Netanyahu You can say he refuses

to talk to Netanyahu. The peace process, that

phrase which has become I just wonder when you look

at Israel today, what do you think the continued

occupation is doing to Israeli Well, I think that our presence

in the West Bank in some areas is needed in order to make

sure that Israel is secure enough. Mr Dichter, you are not

answering my questions. What do you think it is doing

to the Israeli psyche? Let me quote to you another former

head of the Shin Bet. He said this, "We are

making the lives of millions, millions of

Palestinians unbearable. You are referring to

The gatekeepers, the movie the Gatekeepers and he refers,

as far as I terror attacks were launched

from both Gaza Strip and He referred to the role that

Shin Bet played at that time. He is reflecting at the end of his,

long retired, reflecting on what this sustained occupation, all

of the checkpoints, the road blocks, the building of the wall,

the separation, the way in way your forces and your intelligence

services are inside the lives of the Palestinians, day

upon day, upon day. He's reflecting on what that

does to Israel. Everything and every such question

has to be measured by I've been head of Shin Bet

when we started to suffer the Within three years, 900

Israelis got killed. The life of Israel and

of people in Israel, let alone visitors, let alone

the economy, almost crashed. And the only way to block

it was by building the barrier, building the fence,

putting checkpoints, whatever, and pouring a lot of

thousands of soldiers and security people into the area in order to

bring it down. And if I may add one more

thing, by accetping the You, as head of Shin Bet

gave the green light, for example, for the dropping

of the bomb on a home killing a dozen people,

most innocent civilians. You know, in my circle of life

in fighting terrorists I know very well that accurate information and

determination is the only way The problem is that sometimes your

information is not accurate enough. In the movie the Gatekeepers said

the terrible thing is there is no morality when you are

fighting terrorism. No, I heard it when

he said it in the Where is morality in

killing a dozen civilians. From my 45 years in fighting

terrorists, I know exactly what it does mean to neglect

terrorists just because they're some kind of

international pressure. In my life I have learned

that we say it in Arabic: Thousands mothers of terrorists

will cry, but not our mothers, and that is

the way we are cracking on terrorists, mainly by detaining

them, bringing them, that's first to, the first when you

are dealing with terrorists, Israel prides itself on being better

than the terrorists. I just wonder what is happening

in Israeli society today. One very famous case in the last few

months in the spring, in Hebron, we saw an Israeli

soldier on video captured the moment when he approached a man

who was prone, on the ground, badly wounded after he tried

to attack an Israeli soldier, It appeared he was just lying

there, gravely wounded. He was shot in the head

by a soldier. and he now faces a trial for

manslaughter, what is shocking is that many Israelis polled

by the media supported his action and felt he should

not be prosecuted. First of all, you have to remember

that this soldier is now

on trial, as you said. I am talking about the collective

psyche of a nation here. Because people are

watching TV, they see pictures and they try to analyse

according to the picture. I myself decided I'm

not getting into this issue up until the trial is getting

to be ended. Because I have learned

in my life that watching part of a movie, few single pictures

amongst many others does not give you a real angle to

understand what is going on. The fact that this soldier

is being brought to justice, he's on a trial, a soldier, it's not

something that you can see in many other countries, including

democratic countries. I think it is not the first

case and not the only case we have in Israel that soldiers

or security people are being brought to justice when they're, when the

Army, the leadership, the commanders are, they think that his behaviour

has to be tested under the most Throughout this interview you have

talked about terrorism and the fight, Israel's fight which which it

has to win against terror. In the end, these

terrorists, as you call They are the ones that

ultimately, as Rabin put it, you will have to

talk to make a peace. You do not make peace

with You make peace with your enemies

and again quoting other heads of the Security Services,

they say it is time to talk to Hamas, to drop this fiction

that we cannot I have been to this movie

when I was head of the division when just started

the post Oslo peace treaty. We've had meeting with our

enemies, with terrorists. We are sitting around one table,

I remember one of my systems counted Those people who are

sitting with us. And I remember a very important

meeting, Prime Minister Rabin wants

us and Yasser Arafat commanders of the Palestinian

security apparatuses. Three from the Gaza Strip

and three from the West Bank and he told them a story of a vessel

which brought weapons to the rebels who were rebels before

the independence war, from France to It was, it arrived after the idea

of the Israeli defence force, the Army, was established

after we became a state. The Prime Minister of Israel told

them and that's what Rabin is telling them,

he told them there's no way you are going

Either you send it back to France or you hand it over to the Israeli

Would you talk to Hamas or Islamic Jihad,

I would even talk to Ahmadinejad, including

I am always for talk, because only then do things get

Let's take a real scenario which may happen over the

coming years, the coming months, I don't know.

He will not run for the presidency in the Palestinian authority.

Hamas is getting prepared to take over in free elections.

Now try and imagine, which you don't need

a very strong imagination, to see that Hamas is becoming the

President of the Palestinian Authority.

In that case, he's the elected President.

Now, the question is whether he's going to accept the

You will not know what he's going to accept or what his

strategy might be if you don't talk to him.

No, but he's not the

Let's not kid ourselves for one second

that Israel has not put out contacts over many years to Hamas.

The bottom line is, if you are to be serious about peace, you

will ultimately have to talk to people.

Israel has to insist to talk with one PA that has one law for

The only man that I know, the official man, the official

person, although it was 12 years ago, their first and first election

He's the man that we are obliged to talk to.

If tomorrow there would be somebody else whether from Fatah, from Hamas

or any other movement, he will be the President,

the leader of Israel will have to whether he accepts or

If he doesn't accept it is a new game.

You know, when in Egypt the Muslim Brotherhood came into

power in 2011, they didn't touch Israeli Egyptian peace treaty.

I'm not sure that Hamas was part of the Muslim

Brotherhood are going to be behaving in the same way.

focus on the negatives of Hamas rather than talk about internal

Let me ask you briefly about Israel and its potential for massive

civil strife, some say possibly tearing itself apart over the issue

of settlements, because again if there is to

be in the longer run a

two-state solution and some say it is now impossible.

But if there is to be such a thing, hundreds of

thousands of Jewish settlers on occupied land

You know, I have been twice in this issue.

In Sinai was the Egyptians and in Gaza the engagement in 2005.

Now, it's well understood that Israel in Jerusalem area will never

be back to the line of '67 because today we have more Israelis,

Jewish people who live outside the '67 line

than inside the '67 line inside Jerusalem.

Jerusalem has so many neighbourhoods in Jerusalem.

Jerusalem will be totally different compared to the 67 line.

Does the Israeli state have the will and the

strength to take hundreds of thousands of Jewish settlers out of

I think that when the time comes and Israel will sign

a peace treaty with our Palestinian neighbour,

I can assure you that the

society in Israel is much stronger than we will think it is.

I met once a professor who was a very good

friend, he was passed away a few months ago,

that he met, he was invited by President Obama

He's a holocaust survivor as well and a Nobel Prize

He was asked by President Obama a very tough question.

What's the meaning of the state of Israel

2,000 years Jewish people were in exile

and the state of Israel was

not established in '48 there could be another

exile, but once the state of Israel was established in 1948, if God

forbidden this country is going to be destroyed it might be the

I am telling you we do know it, we understand it and that's why I am

telling you the authorised regime in Israel.

The Government wants to

decide to sign a peace treaty it will be signed.

Whatever is needed and whatever is derived from this

Will there be a two-state solution in your lifetime?

Second one, look around the region, look at

the meltdown in Syria, look at the forces

of Islamist extremism beyond

Israel's borders, does Israel see this

as threat or in some ways as

An opportunity to reach out to some of the "conservative

gulf states" including Saudi Arabia and to line those states up

There are some opportunities lies in the

But we have to be very, very aware of one

thing, we in our terminology in Hebrew, in English, we say the enemy

In Arabic they say me and my brother against our cousin

and me and my cousin against the strangers.

So when Netanyahu goes to the UN and says, look Israel now has

better relationships with, not just the world, but also

many of the Arab countries, he's whistling in the

But in the Middle East, unlike many other parts

of the world, in Europe, in some other parts,

you normally get the

treatment of respect him and suspect him.

In the Middle East, you should say suspect him and respect him.

Avi Dichter, thank you very much for being on

There's gonna be a lot of cloud across the UK over