Daniel Mitov, Minister of Foreign Affairs, Bulgaria HARDtalk

Now on BBC News, HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.

If a chain is only as strong as its weakest link,

then the European Union has reason to worry about Bulgaria.

Once a redoubt of the Soviet empire, Bulgaria is by many measures

the poorest, most corrupt member of the European Union.

It also happens to be a key player in two of the great challenges

facing the EU - the migration crisis and the hostile

relationship with Russia.

My guest today is Bulgaria's Foreign Minister, Daniel Mitov.

Can Brussels rely on Bulgaria?

Daniel Mitov, welcome to HARDtalk.

Thank you.

I think we have to start with Europe's migration challenge.

If we look at the response of your government, it seems

that there is an atmosphere of panic in Sofia.

Why?

First, I would like to start with the fact that I found it quite

unfair, the introduction in the very beginning.

When it comes to weakest links, actually Bulgaria has done quite

well in terms of protecting the external border

of the European Union, and that has been recognised

on so many levels both in Brussels and in our bilateral relationship

with each and every member of the European Union.

I wasn't measuring weakness simply by the strength of your frontier.

There are other parameters, too.

But let's not get stuck on that.

That is absolutely true, but we can of course

explore other dimensions.

I promise you we will!

I talk about this atmosphere of panic because your

Interior Ministry just in very recent hours has issued an order

activating level two in terms of the estimation of danger

on the Bulgarian/Turkish border, and this comes under your national

plan for emergency situations.

Why are you ratcheting up the...?

Very often when it comes to assessing the level of control

over the border, there are moments in which you need to take

into account the circumstances, and especially when it comes

to migration and refugee pressure.

Right now you know what is going on in Aleppo and Mosul,

we hope that Mosul will soon be liberated, and people can return

actually to their homes.

But when it comes to Aleppo, the atrocities there are appalling.

That is why we are...

This is not panic, this is a reaction to expected events.

But I wonder why you are expecting such an emergency, because this year

I think the figure is roughly 16,000, the number of migrants that

have entered your territory.

16,000 is not insignificant for a country of 7 million.

A lot of them were actually returned.

We have throughout the recent last months, we have returned a lot

of those back to Turkey, all we have actually already trying

to trigger all those agreements between the European Union and third

countries which require repatriation.

Because your message is clear, it is extremely negative about this

whole issue of immigration into the European Union.

You are building walls at a furious pace.

You are a country which ironically after 1989 and the collapse

of the Soviet Empire, you dismantled your frontier razor

wire and minefields, and now here you are building walls

like there is no tomorrow.

Different times, different circumstances.

We are trying to be, and we are, they responsible out of border

of the European Union.

We are not responsible only for our own territory control.

We are responsible for everyone else's, and by the way,

the facility which we are building, we are very much aware

that it is not going to stop large numbers of people,

but it will for sure impede the attempts of human smugglers

and criminal groups who are trying to smuggle people

through the Borders.

But the fact that you have got an important strategic position does

not justify violating and flouting international norms and human rights

law, does it?

I would very much disagree with this.

You think it gives you the right, do you, to flout international normsw?

It doesn't give us any right to flout international norms,

but we are not.

Why are you doing it, then?

I am contesting exactly that.

Bulgaria has never intentionally or in any other way

violated any norms.

In fact, we are living up to those norms.

If there are individual cases which are contested,

then we not only look at them, but there have been in the past

people punished for violating certain types of principles.

Border guards have been accused by a whole host of independent human

rights groups and border monitors of using excessive force.

We saw just year ago and Afghan individual shot dead

by your border forces.

And your Prime Minister promised a full investigation,

and as I understand it, the courts have dropped all charges

against those responsible.

First, that was clearly an incident.

When it comes to this specific case, it was thoroughly investigated.

Who has been punished?

As every other case, those are investigated,

and there are people who have been punished,

actually, throughout the process.

The courts dropped all charges.

I cannot go into each and every individual case,

but with the NGOs which you have already mentioned, we have contacts

with them, and we investigate, and we are trying to engage

with them for every single possible case.

But let me tell something else here.

The human smugglers are becoming extremely inventive.

Bulgaria has increased the penalties for human smuggling.

Bulgaria has taken full control over its external border,

especially when it comes to Turkey.

In coorporation with the Turkish authorities.

I have to say here that we have very good cooperation and understanding

on how things need to work.

But human smuggling has become extremely inventive in ways

to circumvent certain types of norms, and some of those

accusations you are mentioning are actually a way for certain

people to get status of refugees or of witnesses of certain types

of crime in order to stay in Bulgaria and then use

the opportunity and move onward.

You are the Foreign Minister.

I'm sure you care about your country's international reputation.

Very, very much.

Then I'm sure you are concerned when the UN High Commissioner

of Human Rights, Zeid Ra'ad Al Hussein, says things like this.

He condemned the fact that all people entering Bulgaria

in an irregular manner are, to use his phrase, "detained

as a matter of course."

"Even worse, they may be prosecuted and jailed for a year or more

if they try to leave the country."

He says this is not acceptable.

He went on to say, "evidence suggests that attacks and abuses

against migrants and refugees are rarely, if ever, punished".

These are actually all statements which we have already created

a framework with UNHCR which allows us to work together with them

in order to look in every single possible case...

So you are going to change policy?

It is a very hard balance.

Because as we speak today, there are hundreds of people

demonstrating in one of your detention camps right

on the border demanding the right to get out of your country

and go to Serbia.

Look, there are rules, and we are living up to those rules.

When it comes to how to treat refugees and economic migrants,

the distinction needs to be clearly made.

Towards the refugees we have certain type of obligations,

and that is why the European Union pays a lot of money in Turkey,

in Jordan, in Lebanon and in other third countries where we need

to assure that the conditions for the refugees for them

to develop, to get a job, to send their children to school,

are in place.

But when it comes to economic migration, that is a very,

very different story.

His point is it is not right to detain people in essence

as prisoners for more than a year.

As I mentioned, these are already, all the statements...

The one statement I just read to you was from September,

so that is one month old.

Those practices, whatever they were, are being amended exactly

with the participation of UNHCR.

We are working very closely with them.

We can only take your word for that, because he criticised you only

a month ago, so if you have changed your practices,

we will find out.

Criticism towards many countries around the world,

even those who are considered champions of human rights,

have been made recently, because in this very difficult

situation, it is a hard balance to be sure that you respect

the rules and the human rights of the people who arrive.

Nobody is saying this is easy, but in the end, it is about how

you prioritise, and also it is about the tone and the values

that underpin your policy.

One criticism of your government would be, and it has been made

by the Helsinki committee, which has an office in your country,

and many other independent observers, too, that you are playing

politics with this.

You are stirring up, according to the Helsinki committee

representatives, animosity toward refugees, presenting them

as a threat to the Bulgarian public, and the reason you are doing that

may be because your government is propped up by the Parliamentary

support of far right political groups.

No statements of mine or any of the Bulgarian government

officials have been read in terms of stirring a certain type of fear

or blame towards the refugees or anything else.

In our public statements, we are extremely responsible,

and there cannot be any quote from myself or anyone else that can

confirm this statements...

It is not just a question of quotes, is it?

It is a question of actions.

For example, if your government was serious about curtailing

xenophobia and assaults on migrants, why do you not arrest and charge

Dinko Valev, who is well-known in your country as a vigilante

who goes round with heavily armed colleagues on their quad bikes

trying to round up any migrants who are found in that border area

on your territory.

That was a phenomenon which has been already dealt with.

The upper mentioned Dinko.

He was called into the prosecutor's office.

There were certain charges raised against him.

And now vigilantes of that sort which we know are under observation

and under surveillance.

But they are still out there.

That is a problem that has been dealt with.

A British man of the far right is in the British newspapers just

these last few days crowing about his activities

on your territory alongside Mr Valev and others with guns

rounding up migrants.

It is still happening.

I claim they might roam around forests, but they are under

observation, and they have done nothing of the sort recently.

My question comes back to this.

If you look at the way he is portrayed in the Bulgarian

media, he is described as a hero.

If you look at the support he seems to have amongst the Bulgarian...

I cannot be responsible for how media describes

anyone, that's first.

Second, the government has always condemned the actions of vigilantes

in any country which respects itself.

And the rule of law is the main principle.

Actions are taken and we have taken them.

So Mr Valev is going to face charges, is he?

I'm not really sure at what stage right now the prosecution is.

But he has been called into the prosecutor's office,

and certain charges have been done against him.

The evidence according to the Helsinki committee is that

in public platforms, including on your media,

he has claimed to have been involved in assault and battery,

making death threats, unlawful detentions,

inciting ethnic hatred.

These are crimes in your country?

These are crimes in my country.

So your message to your own people is, we are going to deal

with Mr Valev and all of these so-called vigilantes?

We are, and we are dealing with them, and that is why

they are under surveillance right now.

They cannot do what they have done in the past.

Let's talk about a different aspect of the same concern that I have

quoted various independent monitoring groups is having

about your country, and that is xenophobic populism.

One other element of this according for example

to Amnesty International's Europe director, John Dalhuisen,

is your country's determination, it seems to take on those women

who want to wear the full veil in public in Bulgaria.

Would you accept that that is a part of this same problem?

I don't think so.

This is a decision that has been taken in the Parliament not so long

time ago, and these type of cultural expressions are not traditional

for the country, and on the basis of that...

They are traditional for a certain number of Muslims.

And on the basis of that we have taken this decision.

The Parliament has deliberated on that with quite wide majority.

In the light of this particular quote from the Europe director

of Amnesty International, he says women in Bulgaria should be

free to dress as they please and to wear the burqa or the niqab

as an expression of their identity or beliefs.

What's your personal view about that?

Can you agree that this is a European debate in general.

We can see this type of phenomenon in France, we can see

it in other countries.

That is a worldwide...

Sorry, not a worldwide but a European wide debate for sure.

When it comes to traditional ways of expressing religious pertinence,

Bulgaria is one of those countries where Muslims and Christians have

lived for centuries together without any problem,

and without using burqas.

Which makes one wonder why your government is now

so determined to take on this small section of your population

who want to wear...

The burqas have never been a traditional expression

of our Muslim populations.

And your view is you have every right to ensure that no woman

is allowed to go on the street in public wearing...?

It is not about women in this case.

It is about everyone who covers their face in public.

So the target is not women who want to wear burqas in general.

The whole philosophy of what the Parliament has voted

is covering your face in public is unacceptable.

I suppose underpinning a lot of the questions I am

asking you is searching for Bulgaria's European identity

right now, and Bulgaria's values.

We don't have to search for that.

We have it.

We have been Europe always.

Let's talk a little more, then, in broad terms,

about where Bulgaria sits.

For example, in the EU.

You obviously are here in London and you are observing

what the British people have decided to do, which is get out

of the European Union.

You in Bulgaria, I think it is fair to say, are on the

periphery of the EU.

You are not in the Schengen, travel area.

You are not of course in the euro and the eurozone.

You do feel and look like a country that is very much

on the edge of the EU.

Is that problematic?

Geographically, that is a fact.

When it comes to levels of integration in the European Union,

of course we do have still a lot to do.

Eurozone is one of our goals, becoming part of the eurozone.

When it comes to Schengen, yes, we are negotiating right now,

and we hope that soon at least the decision will be made

to let Bulgaria and remain here in the Schengen zone when it

comes to air and maritime borders.

But you know that a lot of nations, I am looking at recent

statements from Finland, the Netherlands, they don't think

you are anywhere near ready.

In terms of your quality of governance...

I'm not really sure where those statements come from,

but when it comes to our negotiation process, we are at least sure

that we are not only ready, we are more than ready to join

the Schengen space when it comes to a borders and maritime borders.

When it comes to land borders, there could be a bit of a longer

process, because right now, and this is important to mention,

Bulgaria was one of those countries, and actually the first country

probably which introduced a certain type of shift of philosophy when it

comes to the European Union and how we should perceive ourselves

in the future.

The European Union needs to perceive itself as one whole with external

borders which need to be guarded and protected together with

the effort of all EU member states.

This is much more cost-effective, and much more secure,

because if we managed to do that, everyone else in the heart

of the European Union can feel safe.

But it comes back to what I said at the very beginning

in my introduction.

Many in the European Union, many member states and indeed many

people in Brussels see you as a weak link because of your endemic

corruption, your very poor record of governance and,

of course, your very weak economy.

But there is another factor, too.

You have traditionally and still today seem to be something

of a split personality country in that you look to Brussels,

of course, you are a full member of the EU, but you also have a very

close relationship with Russia.

And that continues.

Well, that is a bit of an interesting statement,

which I would like to challenge.

So first, when it comes to the corruption you mention,

we don't run away from the problems.

We need to continue with our judicial reform.

We need to continue fighting corruption.

But that is valid for a lot of other countries, even old members

of the European Union.

Second, in the recent years, in the last couple of years,

Bulgaria has created a really good record when it comes to fight

against smuggling of different goods, especially when it comes

to illegal alcohol and cigarettes.

That has added up to our coffers more than 3 billion leva.

Which means that we have created a special unit

which deals with that.

So where the corruption comes from, it comes from illegal

practices like that.

You make the case that you are tackling corruption.

Let's take that as a given, because we don't have so much time,

and I do want to get onto this point about Russia.

And that is one very important point.

First, Bulgaria has always supported the sanctions against Russia when it

comes to them being linked of course to the full implementation

of the Minsk agreement.

Point one.

I have already mentioned the atrocities in Aleppo.

Our Prime Minister a couple of days ago said there are more

important things than an economic relationship.

Human life stands above everything.

If you are sending a message to Moscow, let me get

you to clarify.

Your president recently made a statement that called

the big stir in Bulgaria.

He described Russia as a nationalist, aggressive state

ruled by a president who sees Europe as an opponent not a partner.

Many Bulgarians castigated him for saying that.

Here is your opportunity as Foreign Minister to say,

do you agree with your president's words?

Whatever the president has said, I stand 100% behind that.

So you see Mr Putin, too, as an opponent not a partner,

and you see him as supervising a nationalist aggressive state?

We have always tried to build an equal partnership with Russia

on the basis of mutual respect.

Unfortunately in recent years, not only towards us but also

towards the whole European Union, this is not happening.

What has been challenged, and I will ask...

The reason I am pushing you on this is the president is about to leave

office, and you are having an election for a new president,

and the socialist candidate, one of the two leading candidates,

says that he doesn't believe in sanctions.

He wants a much closer relationship with Russia.

That's the danger of the selection, because we might have someone which,

or who is not capable of understanding what is going on.

What I'm saying to you is Bulgaria is clearly split right now.

A very substantial chunk of your population wants a close

relationship with Moscow.

That is a fair assessment, and this government is fighting

exactly to make a clear picture of what is going on in the world

and why we are supporting the sanctions on the one hand

but also to describe what is going on, and I would plead

for a little bit of time here.

First, the world has divided, it is already divided

in 19th-century terms.

On one hand there are the liberal democracies, and on the other hand,

absolutist, authoritarian regimes which are basically challenging

the liberal democracies.

And you see Putin's Russia is one of those?

I see a lot of those.

But the problem you have, Foreign Minister, is you are

a liberal voice in your government, but there are many who see

the nature of the economic ties between Russia and Bulgaria

and feel that you are going to lose this argument.

Let me just quote you before we finish.

Mr Pyotr Tolstoy, a Russian MP, very loud voice in the Russian

media, and he said recently, we will just buy out the entire

Bulgaria.

Half of its coastline, he said, already belongs to us,

and that is the truth...

That is offensive, first, and second, every single party

in the Bulgarian political spectrum has reacted to this and has

condemned those words.

When it comes to energy, the vast wealth that the Russians

hold inside your country, including property, the Russians

have you round the neck.

That is somewhat of a fair assessment, but I have to say,

Bulgaria is doing a lot when it comes to diversifying

its sources of energy.

Everyone knows that Bulgaria is almost 100% dependent on Russian

gas, that is why we are building the interconnections with Greece,

with Romania, we are trying to invest in the LNG terminals.

But given that reality, how can you tell me that

within the EU and its debate about how to handle Russia,

you are going to be anything other than a country that in the end wants

good relations with Moscow?

We have proven that we can stand the ground of the European values

and the European way of thinking on how to handle

situations like that.

Because what happened was a brutal dismantlement of the international

law and order by seizing of part of an independent, sovereign

neighbouring country in the case of the annexation of the Crimea.

And then destabilising eastern Ukraine.

If we let this go without consequences,

there will be other countries, revisionist countries,

which will think that they can do the same, and repair some kind

of historical injustice.

A very interesting point.

We are going to end the interview with just a straight yes/no answer

from you if we may.

If the Socialist candidate, who wants a much closer relationship

with Moscow, wins the Bulgarian presidency, will your Prime Minister

and where you quit?

Will it be the end of this government?

I will stand my ground, and I'm absolutely sure that is

valid for the Prime Minister.

Daniel Mitov, we have to end there.

Thanks for being on HARDtalk.

Thank you.

Hello there.